ESA, IGDA: Threats, Personal Attacks Have No Place in Games

Trishbot

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circularlogic88 said:
Lara Croft is an emotionally complex character now? lol okay.
Why, yes, she is. Times changed, and she changed with it. I'm VERY happy with the result.

On topic, when both the IGDA and the ESA condemn your "movement", the movement has lost the altruistic edge. It's too toxic and poisonous now. The tide has turned. It's doing FAR more harm now then good.

V da Mighty Taco said:
Great. Just great. Yet another large organization going "the entirety of GamerGate are harassing, sexist assholes who just want to silence women". No acknowledgement of harassment towards GGers or anything, nor even a slight acknowledgement that not everyone in GG is like that (seriously, "the whole community"?).

Fuck, this is almost enough to make me support GG again. Almost.

Apologies if I'm seeming a bit hostile, btw. Absolutes and putting words or ideas into people's mouths are just pet peeves of mine is all.
This is the biggest organization of gaming on the planet. These are gaming industry leaders and developers and organizers and promoters. And this is what they feel GamerGate is. That's the public AND the industry's opinion and interpretation of events. GamerGate is toxic, no matter what good you or others intended. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.

For anyone who legitimately feels "journalistic integrity" is what GamerGate is about, I would encourage you to keep up that fight... but not under a label, a hashtag, and a "movement". I've been fighting for journalistic integrity LONG before GamerGate was a thing, and I'll push for it long after GamerGate dies out. I don't need a catchy hashtag tainted by voracious idiots and misogynists to do what I've always done before.

Let's start pushing for something more important now: Inclusivity. Something to stand by our women in games, to be that vocal voice going "we're with you. Don't let the morons get you down." A movement to say "thank you" to those talented women out there that helped create those games you loved, like Portal, Bioshock, Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and so many others that had female developers and writers and producers heavily involved in bringing them to life.

Can we work on that, please?
 

an874

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Thanks #Gamergate! Because of you, the vile SOPA pushing lobbyists of the ESA are now the heroes in this story, but what could we really expect from the gaming community's Tea Party?: http://www.motivationals.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-15177.jpg
 

Aramis Night

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I find it really amusing that people are siding with the individuals who have been identified as corrupt by their own verifiable actions, in favor of attacking a nebulous group for behavior that no one can even confirm was done by them. That's pretty brave. Never mind that people within GamerGate have been making it a point to police and condemn their own troublemakers(with the little ability they have to do so given the anonymous nature of its membership) while the journalists and developers themselves are out there making the same kinds of threats and insults with no internal pushback. The hypocrisy is staggering.

It's really an excellent case study in how much power we give to presentation vs. substance in our society. A classic illustration of the power of narrative vs. facts. It's actually rather depressing to see it play out like this and doesn't leave me with much hope for our species.
 

Bat Vader

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I agree. Threats and attacks have no place in the gaming community. The people that do use threats and personal attacks just serve to undermine the gaming community and make outside observers seem as we are immature and childish.
 

Roxas1359

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Bentusi16 said:
I really dont like the suggestion thay considering myself a gamer somehow makes me a misogynistic hater.
I actually got called a misogynist by some feminists on my capmus a few days ago just because I identified myself as a gamer. Told those people to piss off after that, but it's really sad when both sides are on such big extremes that any person with a moderate view suddenly gets labelled things they aren't. If people want me to be a part of their movement, being a passive-aggressive jerk will not only not want me to be a part of your group, it makes me want your group to fail just to be vindictive. Which is sad because I do want some more inclusion for women in games. If people want change, then vote with your wallets, as those are the most powerful weapons any person has.

And no, threats and personal attacks don't have a place in video games. So kindly tell both sides this as that is what they keep doing while point fingers that the other one started it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play some video games while everyone else fights among each other.
 

Trishbot

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Aramis Night said:
I find it really amusing that people are siding with the individuals who have been identified as corrupt by their own verifiable actions, in favor of attacking a nebulous group for behavior that no one can even confirm was done by them. That's pretty brave. Never mind that people within GamerGate have been making it a point to police and condemn their own troublemakers(with the little ability they have to do so given the anonymous nature of its membership) while the journalists and developers themselves are out there making the same kinds of threats and insults with no internal pushback. The hypocrisy is staggering.

It's really an excellent case study in how much power we give to presentation vs. substance in our society. A classic illustration of the power of narrative vs. facts. It's actually rather depressing to see it play out like this and doesn't leave me with much hope for our species.
Sure, there are genocidal wars being waged at this very moment, millions living in poverty and disease, children starving to death across the ocean, rape victims, murders, lynchings, terrorism, homophobia, and natural disasters aplenty...

... But video game journalism and the loss of respect for a silly hashtag are enough to make you "lose hope for our species".

If that causes you to lose faith in the human species, your priorities were vastly misplaced.

All of this reminds me so heavily of people in Southern states clinging to the Confederate flag, yelling loudly that "it's not about slavery! It's about Southern pride!" when the rest of the world sighs and tries to either tell them it lost that meaning long ago, or they ignore that group entirely as clueless and outdated.

Besides, even if GamerGate stood for "journalistic integrity", the targeted women in this case don't even fit that profile: one of them isn't a journalist at all, another was funded by fans and accepted NO industry money to cover games, another simply retweeted some image macros. Beyond that, there are FAR more egregious problems in the industry other than (disproven) accusations of a female developer sleeping with a journalist for flattering coverage.

It's so childish to stand behind a hashtag, needing a name for a movement that lost its way, instead of abandoning the name or, more tellingly, standing up for these harassed women and victims but not doing so because "they're on the wrong side" of your chosen petty feud.

If anything, all these women should be held up as heroes for representing exactly what so-called champions of GamerGate claim to represent: bastions of clean journalism and indie development in a sea of corrupt, unafraid to speak their minds and open the door to dialogue and discourse.
 

Zaydin

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V da Mighty Taco said:
Nimcha said:
V da Mighty Taco said:
Great. Just great. Yet another large organization going "the entirety of GamerGate are harassing, sexist assholes who just want to silence women". No acknowledgement of harassment towards GGers or anything, nor even a slight acknowledgement that not everyone in GG is like that (seriously, "the whole community"?).
Point is it doesn't matter. It's not a movement but it pretends to be one. That's why you get stuff like that.
It's thousands of people standing for a cause that they strongly believe in. That makes it a movement.
Yet for all their claims of wanting to fight corruption in gaming journalism, Gaters (I refuse to call them Gamers) were silent when Gamespot canned Jeff Gerstmann for panning Kane and Lynch.
 

Trishbot

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Zaydin said:
Yet for all their claims of wanting to fight corruption in gaming journalism, Gaters (I refuse to call them Gamers) were silent when Gamespot canned Jeff Gerstmann for panning Kane and Lynch.
That's the baffling thing to me.

There are SO many bigger, worse, demonstrably proven problems in the industry. Where were they then? Why aren't they speaking up against these and many OTHER issues? Why is it just the female devs and journalists getting the brunt of these attacks and criticism?

Even the whole trigger for this movement, a jilted ex posting slanderous things about his ex-girlfriend, was found to be without merit, and yet it's STILL being brought up as a sign of corruption... and yet, oddly enough, you don't hear about the male journalist much, or the fact that, if it WAS true, that they'd be using their leverage of journalistic power to solicit sex from a struggling dev to promote her (FREE) game... but none of these really seems to get addressed.
 

Ukomba

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I agree those things don't have any place in the video game community and our society. Journalists from gaming websites should really stop sending death threats.

I wonder if ESA and IGDA would include calling people Misogynists and/or bigots in that for not sharing your point of view in that condemnation.
 

Trishbot

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Ukomba said:
I agree those things don't have any place in the video game community and our society. Journalists from gaming websites should really stop sending death threats.

I wonder if ESA and IGDA would include calling people Misogynists and/or bigots in that for not sharing your point of view in that condemnation.
I believe ESA and IGDA are calling the misogynists and the bigots "misogynists and bigots". If you don't fall under that umbrella, they aren't talking to you.

But the GamerGate "movement" is now irreversibly associated with "misogynists and bigots". At this point, standing behind a hashtag so rigidly instead of stepping back and seeing the bigger picture (even within their war against "industry corruption". There's a LOT more problems in the industry going on than a jilted, spiteful ex throwing accusations at his former flame. Where was this movement then?)
 

Ukomba

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Trishbot said:
Ukomba said:
I agree those things don't have any place in the video game community and our society. Journalists from gaming websites should really stop sending death threats.

I wonder if ESA and IGDA would include calling people Misogynists and/or bigots in that for not sharing your point of view in that condemnation.
I believe ESA and IGDA are calling the misogynists and the bigots "misogynists and bigots". If you don't fall under that umbrella, they aren't talking to you.

But the GamerGate "movement" is now irreversibly associated with "misogynists and bigots". At this point, standing behind a hashtag so rigidly instead of stepping back and seeing the bigger picture (even within their war against "industry corruption". There's a LOT more problems in the industry going on than a jilted, spiteful ex throwing accusations at his former flame. Where was this movement then?)
Right, the personal attacks are ok if you're doing it. Got you. I mean, making a slanderous statement like they "are looking to squash the voices of women at all costs" that's fine. but pointing out actual issues with the reporting is bigoted. That's fine, I can see where your bias is.
 

SilverHunter

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Zaydin said:
V da Mighty Taco said:
Nimcha said:
V da Mighty Taco said:
Great. Just great. Yet another large organization going "the entirety of GamerGate are harassing, sexist assholes who just want to silence women". No acknowledgement of harassment towards GGers or anything, nor even a slight acknowledgement that not everyone in GG is like that (seriously, "the whole community"?).
Point is it doesn't matter. It's not a movement but it pretends to be one. That's why you get stuff like that.
It's thousands of people standing for a cause that they strongly believe in. That makes it a movement.
Yet for all their claims of wanting to fight corruption in gaming journalism, Gaters (I refuse to call them Gamers) were silent when Gamespot canned Jeff Gerstmann for panning Kane and Lynch.
I'm assuming you must be ignorant to gaming media prior to 2009? Try googling "Gerstmann gate" and come back and tell me people were silent about it. Several websites had dozens of articles, created tags even specifically for this, and you want to try and say people were silent?


People on both sides of the fence for the "GamerGate" have said before that part of the reason this has blown up into the beast it is was because websites were actively stifling conversation. It added fuel to the fires of conspiracy talk, and when outside political forces started jumping in on the bandwagon, it got out of control. Or did you forget who originally came up with the name "GamerGate"?
 

Trishbot

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Ukomba said:
Right, the personal attacks are ok if you're doing it. Got you. I mean, making a slanderous statement like they "are looking to squash the voices of women at all costs" that's fine. but pointing out actual issues with the reporting is bigoted. That's fine, I can see where your bias is.
I think you're getting a tad too emotionally wrapped up in this, because these statements were not directed at you. They were directed at the "misogynists and bigots" who, yes, do want to "squash the voices of women at all costs". That's factual, and if you aren't with them, don't stand alongside them.

Critique away. I never called you bigoted. But the IGDA and ESA responded to terrorist and death threats, not to criticism of game journalism.

Your own bias seems to be skewing your perspective on this topic and making generalized comments about bad individuals a personal affront. You should have nothing to be defensive about unless you're one of those that agree the harassment and death threats weren't an issue or that you condone the actions. If you don't, then they were not talking to you, at all, and you shouldn't care.

SilverHunter said:
People on both sides of the fence for the "GamerGate" have said before that part of the reason this has blown up into the beast it is was because websites were actively stifling conversation. It added fuel to the fires of conspiracy talk, and when outside political forces started jumping in on the bandwagon, it got out of control. Or did you forget who originally came up with the name "GamerGate"?
It blew up in the beast it did because a bitter, jealous, angry ex went to a group of trolls, made up a bunch of stories about her (many outright disproven), and said trolls went on the warpath, organizing and going after people so barely even related to the concept of "journalistic integrity" that it's almost laughable.

Adam Baldwin started the name, but even he didn't have all the info at the time, and even his criticism of the industry are almost barely related to the harassment and vitriolic environment stemming from the movement now.

Even if it DID start out as something positive, it's no longer that way. Or do you also believe the swastika is still a Buddhist good luck symbol? When a good cause is corrupted and perverted beyond repair, it's a better use of time and energy to abandon a silly, pointless hashtag or title and just, well, be a decent human being without a mascot to stand behind.

I've been promoting reform in the game industry long before Adam Baldwin said something catchy. I'll do it long after the "movement" fades from recent memory. I don't need a hashtag to be a decent human being. I won't was my time and defend a hashtag from haters, or to spend more time defending a hashtag from criticism than actually talking about the issues I care about, or to use a hashtag to stand up for the oppressed and victimized, or glean my sense of pride as a gamer from something a someone somewhere wrote in generalities. I've been doing this stuff for years without it. Why do I need it now?
 

Aramis Night

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Trishbot said:
Aramis Night said:
I find it really amusing that people are siding with the individuals who have been identified as corrupt by their own verifiable actions, in favor of attacking a nebulous group for behavior that no one can even confirm was done by them. That's pretty brave. Never mind that people within GamerGate have been making it a point to police and condemn their own troublemakers(with the little ability they have to do so given the anonymous nature of its membership) while the journalists and developers themselves are out there making the same kinds of threats and insults with no internal pushback. The hypocrisy is staggering.

It's really an excellent case study in how much power we give to presentation vs. substance in our society. A classic illustration of the power of narrative vs. facts. It's actually rather depressing to see it play out like this and doesn't leave me with much hope for our species.
Sure, there are genocidal wars being waged at this very moment, millions living in poverty and disease, children starving to death across the ocean, rape victims, murders, lynchings, terrorism, homophobia, and natural disasters aplenty...

... But video game journalism and the loss of respect for a silly hashtag are enough to make you "lose hope for our species".
Thank you for illustrating my point about framing while ignoring context. Good job.
If that causes you to lose faith in the human species, your priorities were vastly misplaced.

All of this reminds me so heavily of people in Southern states clinging to the Confederate flag, yelling loudly that "it's not about slavery! It's about Southern pride!" when the rest of the world sighs and tries to either tell them it lost that meaning long ago, or they ignore that group entirely as clueless and outdated.
We'll seeing as how the union included 4 slaveholding states during the civil war(exempt from the emancipation proclamation btw), they might have a point. But again, let's continue to not address facts and instead support a narrative instead. Wow another great example that you have illustrated of my point.
Besides, even if GamerGate stood for "journalistic integrity", the targeted women in this case don't even fit that profile: one of them isn't a journalist at all, another was funded by fans and accepted NO industry money to cover games, another simply retweeted some image macros. Beyond that, there are FAR more egregious problems in the industry other than (disproven) accusations of a female developer sleeping with a journalist for flattering coverage.
The issue is one of collusion between journalists and developers at the expense of other developers who are not being given a fair chance at representation in the media because of personal and financial ties that indicate corruption and blatant favoritism. This goes far beyond who slept with who and has been the case ever since the GamerGate tag was created. What your referring to is the 5 guys burgers and fries/quinnspiracy. That was back when people were being criticized and dismissed simply because they were asking the question of whether there was any truth to the Zoe post put up by her ex and what it might mean if the contents of it had any truth to it regarding the accusations of Zoe sleeping with other industry people. GamerGate didn't start until the attacks against gamers as a group started as well as the censorship and shaming simply for asking questions that people hoped the journalists themselves would investigate. No one believed this was anything more than an isolated incident with a few bad actors being unprofessional until all the journalists turned on anyone who was asking for this to be looked into. That is what lead to GamerGate.
It's so childish to stand behind a hashtag, needing a name for a movement that lost its way, instead of abandoning the name or, more tellingly, standing up for these harassed women and victims but not doing so because "they're on the wrong side" of your chosen petty feud.

If anything, all these women should be held up as heroes for representing exactly what so-called champions of GamerGate claim to represent: bastions of clean journalism and indie development in a sea of corrupt, unafraid to speak their minds and open the door to dialogue and discourse.
So how many more name changes do we have to go through before we are allowed to have our grievances heard then? So far changing the name or hashtag hasn't made a difference in terms of how we are perceived, because the journalists who are clearly opposed to us control the narrative. One you have clearly uncritically bought into. So where is this discourse that your praising these women for? So far all I see is the promotion of echo chambers.
 

Scars Unseen

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Trishbot said:
circularlogic88 said:
Lara Croft is an emotionally complex character now? lol okay.
Why, yes, she is. Times changed, and she changed with it. I'm VERY happy with the result.

On topic, when both the IGDA and the ESA condemn your "movement", the movement has lost the altruistic edge. It's too toxic and poisonous now. The tide has turned. It's doing FAR more harm now then good.

V da Mighty Taco said:
Great. Just great. Yet another large organization going "the entirety of GamerGate are harassing, sexist assholes who just want to silence women". No acknowledgement of harassment towards GGers or anything, nor even a slight acknowledgement that not everyone in GG is like that (seriously, "the whole community"?).

Fuck, this is almost enough to make me support GG again. Almost.

Apologies if I'm seeming a bit hostile, btw. Absolutes and putting words or ideas into people's mouths are just pet peeves of mine is all.
This is the biggest organization of gaming on the planet. These are gaming industry leaders and developers and organizers and promoters. And this is what they feel GamerGate is. That's the public AND the industry's opinion and interpretation of events. GamerGate is toxic, no matter what good you or others intended. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.

For anyone who legitimately feels "journalistic integrity" is what GamerGate is about, I would encourage you to keep up that fight... but not under a label, a hashtag, and a "movement". I've been fighting for journalistic integrity LONG before GamerGate was a thing, and I'll push for it long after GamerGate dies out. I don't need a catchy hashtag tainted by voracious idiots and misogynists to do what I've always done before.

Let's start pushing for something more important now: Inclusivity. Something to stand by our women in games, to be that vocal voice going "we're with you. Don't let the morons get you down." A movement to say "thank you" to those talented women out there that helped create those games you loved, like Portal, Bioshock, Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and so many others that had female developers and writers and producers heavily involved in bringing them to life.

Can we work on that, please?
I don't care much about Gamergate or their opposition, and believe that both sides of the conversation have been too poisoned by idiots with loud voices to go anywhere positive. One thing though? You probably shouldn't use the organization that supported SOPA (until the collective internet made them back down) as proof that the public is behind you. They do not care about you. They do not care about this issue. PR is PR. If they had cared, they wouldn't have waited until other news outlets started weighing in on things to have their say.

As for inclusivity, I'm all for it, and I've seen many GGers claim that they are too. Granted, my reasons for inclusivity have nothing to do with equality. I don't think equality should be a requirement of art after all. It would be more accurate to say that I support diversity. Van Gough was a fine artist, but it would be boring if every painting looked like Starry Night. Similarly, I don't have to be female, homosexual, chinese, etc to be bored to tears with the grizzled brown haired white male protagonist who sees the same basic story arc mirrored across entire genres.
 

Trishbot

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Scars Unseen said:
I don't care much about Gamergate or their opposition, and believe that both sides of the conversation have been too poisoned by idiots with loud voices to go anywhere positive. One thing though? You probably shouldn't use the organization that supported SOPA (until the collective internet made them back down) as proof that the public is behind you. They do not care about you. They do not care about this issue. PR is PR. If they had cared, they wouldn't have waited until other news outlets started weighing in on things to have their say.
Who? The ESA or IGDA? Because the ESA DID support SOPA, but IGDA did NOT. If anything, having two sides that stood apart come together and agree concisely that THIS is something they stand together on proves a lot to me. This is an issue they aren't split on.

And, yes, PR is PR, but it's UNIVERSAL at this point. EVERY big organization in the industry has criticized the GamerGate movement for what it represents NOW (not what it's "intentions" were), and it's spilled over into mainstream, with everything from Yahoo, Business Insider, Forbes, NY Times, MSN, and other major outlets weighing in. When the tide is OVERWHELMINGLY against your platform and associate it with the worst types of internet miscreants, do you REALLY think you can turn public's tide back in its favor and have a legit conversation on "journalistic integrity"?
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Nimcha said:
V da Mighty Taco said:
Nimcha said:
V da Mighty Taco said:
Great. Just great. Yet another large organization going "the entirety of GamerGate are harassing, sexist assholes who just want to silence women". No acknowledgement of harassment towards GGers or anything, nor even a slight acknowledgement that not everyone in GG is like that (seriously, "the whole community"?).
Point is it doesn't matter. It's not a movement but it pretends to be one. That's why you get stuff like that.
It's thousands of people standing for a cause that they strongly believe in. That makes it a movement.
No, it's not. There's no cause and there's no way to determine if people actually believe the same as what you believe.

It's like Occupy all over again.
A) I'm not a part of GG anymore, and haven't been for quite a while.

B) All the people over in that dreadful monster thread and all over Twitter would greatly disagree with you about them not having a cause, especially when most of them keep repeating what that cause is over and over again. Just asking any individual there or even merely reading their posts is all that's needed to confirm whether they believe it or not.
 

Alleged_Alec

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A: "YOU GUYS ARE RACIST CHILD-MURDERERS AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED"
B: "B-but I didn't do anything. It was those guys over there."
A: "You're standing next to them! You should move to a different continent if you don't want to be associated with them."

Nice argument. Not that GG is much better these days though...


So, maybe, please, can we just go back to playing games and moaning from time to time about slightly dodgy journalism? I think I preferred that situation to this.
 

marioandsonic

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The ongoing threats, including a shooting threat at USU which led feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian to cancel her speech, as well as threats that have led to independent game developer Brianna Wu leaving her home, have occurred during the movement GamerGate. Both Sarkeesian and Wu have alleged GamerGate was involved in the threats.
I haven't been following news about GamerGate (mainly because if I did, my brain would start to hurt), but were either of these threats proven to have come from GamerGate, or people associated with it?