Question, say we have AI, and Robots that can simulate input 1:1 on the battlefield, but need to be operated by a human. Do you use a bunch of old guys that are being trained for the first time in their life on operating these war machines, or do you use children unspoiled by years of dogmatic teaching, who have been interfacing with this technology for much of their young life.themilo504 said:Maybe it makes more sense in the book\movie but training children to be generals seems like a terrible idea for so many reasons, either way the movie doesn?t look very interesting to me.
I do hate it when something I like is tied to a cause I disagree with, I?m looking at you domino pizza.
Of course there is a difference, it just strikes me as funny that people don't seem to know all that much about the content of a lot of Lovecraft's books. I don't know about the Vikernes analogy though, I think that while you can listen to his work on Youtube a lot more people will just shrug their shoulders and fund him by buying a CD or "steal" the music instead. The thing is that Varg is just a particularly insane example, they may not donate but the views Card exhorts are common the what seems like the overwhelming majority of commercial rap.BreakfastMan said:The difference being A: I can listen to all of Filosofem legally on youtube without giving Varg money, B: Lovecraft is freaking dead, and C: Card actually donates loads of money to hate groups, hence the reason people are hesitant to give him more money.
You are correct in saying that there is bias here, many people in Hollywood turn a blind eye to people like Penn, and think that Hugo Chavez was the second coming of Salvador Allende or Caesar Chavez, an assertion that is likely making Allende and Caesar roll over in their graves.LysanderNemoinis said:Yeah, but you have to remember how the world works. It's okay for an an artist to be an anti-Semite and hire underage hookers (as long as they're the same sex). If it's opposite sex, then it's wrong...unless your have the "correct" political ideology, then you can get away with anything. I mean, no one bats an eyelash when Sean Penn and other actors pal around with horrible communist dictators (who actually systematically kill gay people). At absolute worst people treat it as a joke (ha ha, Dennis Rodman hangs out with Kim Jong-Un) and nothing more. So yeah, Orson Scott Card is almost as bad as Hitler by today's standards.
Shame really because it would have elevated the movie past a simple "boy grows as both leader and psychopath" story into political/social allegory. To be fair, you are right about your assessment, a lot of the standard moviegoing audience wouldn't like the thing with the Bugger queen or the political bloggers and those who do could probably find other more recent works that do the same thing but either better or more complex; anime fans already have gundams and the new Space Battleship Yamato so what could Ender's game do to beat the recent stuff other than massive changes in vision or perspective.Piorn said:Yeah, and it would propably have been too weird. The book had an entire subplot of a game that was generated out of Ender's Psyche, with weird fantasy stuff and gruesome deaths, where he digests the stuff that happened. Towards the end as his psyche degrades, his dreams get weirder and bugs start appearing in places he saw in the game.Izanagi009 said:That actually does sound like a good twist, a stinging criticism of people's want of vengeance and how the military can go too far. I doubt though that the movie would have done it well at all and if they did do it, they probably have been compared to other works that have been made.Piorn said:Wait, THAT'S the twist?
When I read the book, I basically more or less assumed that.
The bigger shocker to me was
To me, THAT was the twist ending, not the stupid "gotcha" at the test.the bugs were just one big hivemind that didn't realize they were killing sentient creatures because of the scale difference, and had long since moved on living their own life, until the fleet that was sent decades ago by the humans arrives, and Ender is having these strange dreams because the hivemind is begging him to stop, as the bugs finally realize their errors as they all die, and leave a temple of apology imprinted with telepathic memories for ender to find in the future.
Personally, I found it a profoundly sad ending, but maybe that's just me.In the end he finds the landmarks of his game on a new planet, and realizes it's a temple that has been built by the buggers, out of his memories, because he was mentally linked to the fleet with the same kind of signal the hivemind uses.
There, he receives a telepathic apology message, together with the last egg of their race, so he can decide their fate.
My guess would be that they cut the fantasy game/dream sequences because they're too weird for general audiences.
And few people can cope with moral ambiguity, nowadays. Seems like they tried to keep that to a minimum.
I honestly wish someone could have made the movie far more politically divisive in it's view of the military and politics. Since you seem to know a bit of the book, the removal of the political bloggers may have made the movie worse in your mind and I can agree that something like that and the repulsive acts that Ender pulls (hell, i remember him beating a few people near death and defending it with something along the lines of "power make you supreme")would have the movie more than a Sci-Fi visual fest coasting on the name of the book; I just wonder if there are people with the talent to make it and if there is a large enough audience for it.Jim_Callahan said:If you want to cringe, read the original short story (or, if you're feeling pretentious, "novelette".Coruptin said:
Same thing happens to the enemy's home planet at the end. Except the enemy isn't named, isn't identified as aliens, and no evidence is presented that humanity ever colonized beyond Earth and some space stations.
Also, "Caucasian boy wonder" is pretty much the opposite of the point. Ender's tactical "genius" is only genius by the standards of a ten-year-old kid, he actually wins by intentionally doing something so stupid that the enemy can't comprehend the magnitude of the fail, because he's essentially throwing a tantrum in the form of throwing the test.
And if he wasn't a child, he'd be pretty much the most vile, bloodthirsty, slimy, irredeemable protagonist in science fiction... which is kind of the point. It's a book about governments kidnapping and brainwashing child soldiers, when Ender starts his tenure in the military via the school abducting him by threatening to murder his little sister in the first chapter it's immediately clear that all the gung-ho patriotism is a cynical deconstruction of warfare "for good cause", not sincere Henlein 'hooray military' crap.
(This is actually what makes Card's transformation into one of the most contemptible, theocratic repressive hawks imaginable so puzzling. Ender's Game is so vehemently anti-war and left-wing that it makes Karl Marx look like George Will. It's almost a damned polemic, the agenda is so un-subtle. I mean, come on, "even righteous war is literally genocide"? Christ.)
This year, Elysium was pretty decent, if unsubtle. Pacific rim was, if not the best thing ever, still pretty great, and the World's End was pretty much the funniest thing I've seen since hot fuzz.EmilShmiengura said:I mean any science-fiction movie that doesn't have heroes in costumes (preferably from the marvel universe) isn't worth it anyway. See this is exactly why we won't any have good SF that thinks outside the comic-book box.
If you're willing to tolerate a little more surreal and low-budget stuff, John Dies at the End was fun, too.
So that's four science fiction movies that weren't based on comic books, and only one even based on a book, in the last year. Four is more good movies than you get in any other genre in a year, so I'll take it.
Nope, there's some dialogue about how he was the third child and his parents had spent a lot of money on him (implying his birth) in order to get him into the academy after his siblings failed. Peter is shown as a demon in Enders subconscious dream sequences and apart from an episode of bullying there not much of an explanation why. Heck the midget leader of Salamander is far scarier.Hoplon said:Seems like the "Ender was literally bred for this purpose" has been eliminated as well. which was always one of the creepier overtones of the book. That and peter.
So they do miss the "military who's running a eugenics program allowed a promising couple a third child after the other two where close but not quite right" and good for the dream, peter is fucking evil.Orcboyphil said:Nope, there's some dialogue about how he was the third child and his parents had spent a lot of money on him (implying his birth) in order to get him into the academy after his siblings failed. Peter is shown as a demon in Enders subconscious dream sequences and apart from an episode of bullying there not much of an explanation why. Heck the midget leader of Salamander is far scarier.Hoplon said:Seems like the "Ender was literally bred for this purpose" has been eliminated as well. which was always one of the creepier overtones of the book. That and peter.
The queen may have been left out since they probably aren't making sequels where this set up is necessary though how stupid it is may be up for debate in a location other than a forum like a chat room. As for the bloggers, I say it's a half truth. While one blogger may not have the power to sway millions, the few people they sway can affect other people in a chain. To use a relatively tired example, While the Arab Spring may not have been started by Twitter, it did form a rallying effect, allowing people to communicate their grievances and form networks that, as evident, change government for good or ill. So while bloggers may not have the power to sway millions, governments do pay attention (China's internet restrictions is light of this) and the effect of people's words have more effect than some may think.Jim_Callahan said:The extra queen he rescues was likely left out because it ruins the entire premise of the book and is the one SciFi epilogue that's dumber and makes less sense than the end of 2001.Izanagi009 said:the standard moviegoing audience wouldn't like the thing with the Bugger queen or the political bloggers
The political bloggers was cut out, because the idea that random anonymous people could post their thoughts and words, and those words would be so compelling that it would change the course of nations, is HILARIOUSLY inaccurate now that several billion people have tried it and everyone knows how it actually works now.
These are cuts of which I approve. If they try to tone down how quickly he goes psycho under the training, though, I'll be annoyed, since that would actually undermine the core anti-war premise of the story. Bob's little bit about "it seems like the adults just think he's a ticking time bomb and want to set him off near the enemy instead of humanity" is... actually a really, really good summary of the book/short story. The kid wasn't actually that much of a genius, they were exploiting his instability and bloodthirst more than anything, they were just telling him he was smart to keep him obedient. The adults outmaneuver him at every turn and Rackham clearly outclasses him in actual military skill by orders of magnitude, to the point of essentially proxy-playing some of the battles for him (to mislead the enemy).
pretty much this and the fact that i find letting children be in charge of thousands of peoples lives sounds stupid as hell, what if that snotty brat decides that hes bored or wants to take a dump and loses the game on purpose? Well maybe it was explained somehow in the book or the movie, still sounds idiotic.Coruptin said:
Yikes. You poor poor person. I empathize with your pain.C.S.Strowbridge said:I review DVDs / Blu-rays as part of my job and this is the first year I can remember that I didn't get a Christmas release in September. I've gotten screeners for Christmas movies in August some years. I'm happy if they wait till after Halloween before they brought out Christmas.ZZoMBiE13 said:"Oh. November. Goodie"
Words never rang so true. I know this is an aside and I apologize for the indulgence. But I swear to anyone reading this, our Halloween merriment of last night was barely complete before I started seeing Christmas ads on some of the channels I watched as I tried to shake off last night's sugar high.
I saw the movie yesterday at an early screening and the extra queen was in the movie he rescues it and flies off into space just before the movie ends. Also, having not read the books or heard anything about the author, I loved this movie. I find myself disagreeing with just about every review movie bob does now-a-days.Izanagi009 said:The queen may have been left out since they probably aren't making sequels where this set up is necessary though how stupid it is may be up for debate in a location other than a forum like a chat room. As for the bloggers, I say it's a half truth. While one blogger may not have the power to sway millions, the few people they sway can affect other people in a chain. To use a relatively tired example, While the Arab Spring may not have been started by Twitter, it did form a rallying effect, allowing people to communicate their grievances and form networks that, as evident, change government for good or ill. So while bloggers may not have the power to sway millions, governments do pay attention (China's internet restrictions is light of this) and the effect of people's words have more effect than some may think.
Regardless, if the movie is as a lot of book fans say, it seems to have lost a bit of it's soul and meaning given the passage of time and of the issues of adaptations.
As far as i know noone puts african child soldiers or suicide bomber children in charge of groups of people so i don't see how this compares. Perhaps Al Quaeda's terrorist operations are being run by a 12 year old, what do i know?Jim_Callahan said:Child soldiers are a real thing used very effectively in many parts of the world for essentially exactly what the book describes. You might know the middle Eastern variant as "suicide bombers" or Al Quaeda foot-soldiers. African warlords use them a lot as well.kasperbbs said:pretty much this and the fact that i find letting children be in charge of thousands of peoples lives sounds stupid as hell, what if that snotty brat decides that hes bored or wants to take a dump and loses the game on purpose? Well maybe it was explained somehow in the book or the movie, still sounds idiotic.Coruptin said:
I'm assuming you're trolling and sticking this in for the benefit of other people... if you genuinely didn't know this then I guess apologies for probably ruining your day by revealing to you how big a set of bastards humans tend to be the moment they get a bit hungry or find religion.