Escape to the Movies: You Are Wrong About Spider-Man 3

DoctorImpossible

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I have long said the scene of dancing Peter strutting down the street was one of my very favorite parts of the entire series. It's absolutely hilariously bad and I love it. And I've never been able to articulate why but Bob did it for me. So thanks for that.
 

DoctorImpossible

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Also, regarding Venom: It's difficult to translate that character fully to screen in a way satisfactory to me, because it was originally doled out to readers over a period of several years in the comics, in a big long mystery that I ate up because I was 12 (although I think the storyline still holds up well, I can't deny nostalgia's influence)

When Pete first found the suit in Secret Wars it was the coolest thing! we'd never really seen Spidey change his costume before. And of course it looked badass. And then he gets back to earth, starts feeling tired all the time ( because the suit is taking him out at night while he sleeps), he's getting more violent, having nightmares what the hell is going on? It was good times. Great, mysteriuous, long form storytelling that just can't happen in feature films.

I blame the 90's for turning Venom into another vigilante Punisher ripoff. That's when Venom really went downhill imo.
 

Redd the Sock

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I've never been the largest fan of the rami movies. I don't hate them, but they don't gel with me. The first is kind of obvious: it works, but it's mostly material any fan knows like the back of their hand. When one half the movie is re-telling one of the most prolific super hero origins, and the other half is a Green Goblin re-tread, there just wasn't much to go wow over the way the fight in the Avengers did. 3, you explain well, everything in it (with one exception I;ll get into) is well done and worked on it's own, but you can't but fried chicken, mountain dew and chocolate ice cream in a blender and come out with the ultimate drink as great tastes don't always blend. 2 had the same problem on the other end, Peter's life got so sad sack it was hard to take seriously, especially when so many problems were self inflicted less by Spider-Man and more by shitty time management and pre-prepared excuses. Spider-Man is supposed to interfere with his life, but it did to such a extreme it was hard to see how he could manage being a hero when he couldn't master early life.

That lack of subtlety is the big issue with 3: aka dark Peter. Yeah, what you say is the point, but these kind of stories only work when the change is gradual and natural. When you don't know if there's a problem at first until something goes wrong. Dark Peter was more in the vein of those old drug PSAs that had someone go from one reefer to selling their body for heroin almost overnight. So instead of Peter trying to be cool and badass and finding it comes witha cost he's not willing to pay, we get "just say no to alien symbiotes".

I'll also disagree with venom as a bad character, at least in concept. It wasn't that Venom was just "evil Spider man" but rather it was totally fucking personal. With most of his usual bad guys, they wanted money or the like, and they didn't usualy kill for shits and giggles or weren't likely to be stopped by the hundreds of other heroes in the city. Venom lived to destroy Peter, and had the power set to do just that. That single mindedness and power set makes the ultimate nemesis. The problem really came from the comics code at the time and the usual comic book rules: Peter had very little life for Venom to destroy, and what little he had, he couldn't touch because you couldn't kill supporting cast willy nilly. Then, he quickly got overused, and it went downhill, bounced back a bit with the Lethal Protector concept, but lost that and fell apart completely about the start of the clone saga and never bounce back totally.

And on a personal level, could you please read your own pice on adhering to the source material and then elaborate on why a less nerdy Peter or the thing with his father is a problem beyond them being a change from the source material. I'm no defender of the new movies or these decisions, but there are times I get the impression you give other people crap for fanboyism and dislike of change you can partake in yourself.
 

JimB

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Tiamattt said:
This reminds me of those jokes that no one laughs at, and still barely spits up a polite chuckle once why it was supposed to be funny is explained in full detail.
That's actually a pretty apt summary of my take on the movie. I kind of wish I'd come up with it. Good on you.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Unfortunately, more interesting, or no, Raimi also apparently killed off Venom, IIRC. Granted, with the nature of symbiotes it might be possible to deny that, and I do think there will inevitably be a symbiote movie.

Venom just seemed under utilized, and, well, not bulky. Just seemed wrong, seeing Venom mirror spiderman's physical form so much.

Yes, I am a Venom fan, though it's more the Eddie Brock host era, and some of the She-Venom arc. After that, Flash, Scorpion, etc, not so much.
 

HemalJB

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Saying Emo-Parker made sense in the context of the movie is like saying Bane and Talia's anti-climactic deaths made sense in TDKR, or that the destruction of Metropolis and Zod's death made sense in the context of MoS. Just because it's right in the movie doesn't mean I'll like it.
Having said that, the one thing I like about Spiderman 3, it's that the villains aren't nice guys who were corrupted by science to become monsters. Sandman was always bad, and his motivations make sense. Harry wanted vengeance for his father. Venom....didn't get time to become efficient but at least he was always bad. These villains make them the best of all Spiderman films, especially the reboot where the main villains are "Science made me evil" types we've seen before.
 

Ihateregistering1

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I can't figure out how he doesn't understand why people who are Venom fans (and I'm definitely one of them) were so disappointed by the depiction of Venom in Spider-man 3.

What makes Venom (and Eddie Brock) interesting is not necessarily that he's a monster version of Spiderman (though he does look extremely cool) it's the fact that he's basically a dark reflection of everything about not just Spider-man, but Peter Parker. Parker is a dweeby, skinny little teenager who gets (or got) bullied, Brock is a muscle-bound meathead who, while not necessarily a bully, doesn't take anyone's shit. Spider-man is the stereotypical good guy who avoids using violence whenever possible, Venom has a strange sense of morality and justice, he simply takes it to the extreme and believes murdering criminals is acceptable. Parker/Spider-man is a logical character who uses science, Venom/Brock lets his emotions take over and dictate his actions. Because of this, Venom isn't necessarily 'cooler', he's just out of control. The Punisher, for all his psychotic violence, at least could generally keep his emotions in check.

The biggest thing the movie missed is that, in the comics, Brock is humiliated and fired not because he faked a story, but because he made a mistake that was later revealed by Spider-man. He's not necessarily a scummy person, he simply blames all the bad things that have befallen him on Spider-man, and reacts in a way that a bully would: by lashing out.

Also I always liked how Brock would always refer to himself as "we" and the symbiote as "my other", the movie totally missed that.
 

KazeAizen

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RandV80 said:
I haven't seen them but I get the impression that the new Amazing Spiderman movie series is corporate packaged specifically targeting today's ADD-orientated youthful audience. Probably why it irritates Movie Bob so much... myself included though since I'm not a movie critic I don't have to see them.
You have no idea. You really have no idea and it ends apparently with a post credit scene. THAT IS A CLIP/TRAILER FOR X-MEN!
 

KazeAizen

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Ihateregistering1 said:
I can't figure out how he doesn't understand why people who are Venom fans (and I'm definitely one of them) were so disappointed by the depiction of Venom in Spider-man 3.

What makes Venom (and Eddie Brock) interesting is not necessarily that he's a monster version of Spiderman (though he does look extremely cool) it's the fact that he's basically a dark reflection of everything about not just Spider-man, but Peter Parker. Parker is a dweeby, skinny little teenager who gets (or got) bullied, Brock is a muscle-bound meathead who, while not necessarily a bully, doesn't take anyone's shit. Spider-man is the stereotypical good guy who avoids using violence whenever possible, Venom has a strange sense of morality and justice, he simply takes it to the extreme and believes murdering criminals is acceptable. Parker/Spider-man is a logical character who uses science, Venom/Brock lets his emotions take over and dictate his actions. Because of this, Venom isn't necessarily 'cooler', he's just out of control. The Punisher, for all his psychotic violence, at least could generally keep his emotions in check.

The biggest thing the movie missed is that, in the comics, Brock is humiliated and fired not because he faked a story, but because he made a mistake that was later revealed by Spider-man. He's not necessarily a scummy person, he simply blames all the bad things that have befallen him on Spider-man, and reacts in a way that a bully would: by lashing out.

Also I always liked how Brock would always refer to himself as "we" and the symbiote as "my other", the movie totally missed that.
To be fair the movie didn't have enough time or even give him enough time to start pulling that kind of stuff. While they missed why he was fired he still did the other things you mentioned. I was impressed with this version of Venom on screen. I mean I didn't pick up a comic until after the Avengers came out but this big screen version of Venom satisfied me enough.
 

Depulcator

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Cinema Sins has my view on this movie, also sorry, like when you tried to defend Sucker Punch, the movie is just bad, accept it and move on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrDwtLl1p0A
 

Nomanslander

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Sigh...

MovieBob... just let go.

I mean I get it, the original Spiderman movies brought back that genuine goodness in comic books characters that was gravely missing at the time when most comic book writers wanted their material to be all EXTREME and EDGY! I get what it meant to you, and what it did to the whole outlook of comic book characters. How IMPORTANT it was! But looking back at it now... it didn't work! Not for Spiderman! It works for Captain America and was lost in translation in the new Man of Steel movie, but... not Spiderman! The character seems obviously more in tune with how the TASM movies are making him out to be, than how Sam Raimi ever did.

I mean I get it! The 90s sucked! Comic book characters were at their golden age during the 60s and 70s when they were made for a child's sensibilities. BUT LET'S FACE IT! Those days have past, and comic books today have taken on a wider audience as it's completely gone mainstream, beyond even what the 90s were able to dream of, and the fact of the matter is certain changes were meant to be made.

Those being:

-Batman should be dark! Fuck the campy "same bat tune, same bat channel" days. I hated that shit even when I was a kid in the 80s and Tim Burton at the time blew my stupid mind and everyone else's when he showed us how it should be done. So three cheers for Tim Burton's contributions. Hip hip hoorah!
-Wolverine will always be a product of the 90s influences, and considering how popular he still is as the stand alone and only sought after X-men when no one gives a damn about the rest of the cast (even when back then he was a bit of a "Worf effect" character) is testament that not all of the 90s sucked.

...and finally

-a more juvenile, wise-cracky, cooler Peter Park suits Spiderman a lot better!

I'm sorry... but I'm tired of the "Revenge of the Nerds" remakes. I'm the same age as you so I know where you come from having gone to high school in the 90s, but I just don't want to see another movie about the awkward teen going out of his league to get the really really hot chick that doesn't know he exist. Superbad was the last time I was willing to let that trope get away with it, and that's only because of that awesome 70s soundtrack in it, and everyone dancing in it like it's Saturday Night Fever when in the 2000s they should have been listening to Lil Jon and been crunkin'. But really! Fuck that garbage! I don't want to see it anymore. This isn't the 80s anymore, and nerds today are now considered more of the in-crowd since the PC revolution was a glorious success. And there is no need to continue playing out the "I was bullied in high school, I now want revenge" tropes. If anything, Peter Parker is still an outsider since he's now too cool in a world that's gone "Portlandia" hipster. It's like Channing Tatum's character in 21 Jump Street, where he finds himself lost and confused going back to high school when no one's there to high five him when mentioning how he bought the new Slim Shady LP. Being an outsider now has a new definition.
 

CManator

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Guilen- said:
1. The 90s were AWESOME
2. Venom was always badass in a good (entertaining) way, and your knocking on him only points out how you relate more to Parker. Venom, in terms of the badass spirit of comics (sacred thing, man), was always one of the coolest.
3. You've made me really want to actually watch the film for the first time. Your review is the first time I didn't consider the idea of Topher Grace as Venom to be a total travesty.
4. Still like your thoughts here for the most part.
To me, Topher as Venom WAS a travesty. He's just not intimidating, and poor writing never helps. However, Topher as Eddie Brock was highly enjoyable and probably the most redeeming aspect of the movie to me. Thankfully, Brock got far more screen time than Venom.

Sorry Bob, my opinion on SM3 hasn't changed. As a standalone movie it was a mess at best, and a huge disappointment compared to its predecessors. Honestly i would have preferred if they just made it about Parker vs Brock and called it a day.
 

leviadragon99

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For my part... ehh.

There were some elements in Spidey 3 that I really enjoyed, Sandman was pretty damn cool, but the new goblin look was generic and a lot of story elements felt all over the place, under-developed and in some cases, something that should have had its own movie to allow breathing room, that amnesia was a cop-out, the retcon was pointless and Venom was underutilised to the point of may as well not having been there.

But yeah, it's not a bad movie, I've certainly seen worse.
 

Lieju

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Yeah, that is pretty much my opinion on the movie. Although I wasn't particularly invested in it, so I didn't care much.
My main problem with it was that since it failed we never got to see Raimi's take on the Lizard. Instead we got Amazing Spider-Man, bleh.

My problem with people disliking the 'emo Parker' has always been the same as with people picking on the whole 'I hate sand' line in the Star Wars prequels. It's supposed to be awkward. (Well, I'm not 100% sure in Lucas' case, but it certainly works in the context)
 

vviki

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I'm with you on this, Bob. My favorite parts of the Spiderman series and movies is the brief parts he gets the Venom costume and gets to finally turn the tables on everyone fucking with him. He stops being stoic and taking spits in the face, he stops worrying about due process and letting criminals go to jail just be be bailed out by the corrupted cops. He turns around and doesn't just retaliate, he becomes vindictive about it, ruining Eddie Brock, hurting and humiliating the people who dared to hurt him. Almost killing Rhino in the TAS with my favorite quote "Rhino: You can't do this! Spiderman: Can't I?".

Thing is I can relate to that, I can say: if I get super powers, I'm not going to take shit from anyone. Do unto others what you'd have others do unto you, means that what they do to me, I should be doing on them. In short: Do unto others what others have done unto you. Sure, I will extend my hand for a shake, but if you don't take it, insult me and spit in my face, the left hand will come and it will be a punch in the face followed by a throw from a window. Basically Insanity Wolf mode: He laughed at me, I was laughing, while I was burying him alive.
 

Deacon Cole

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Frankly, I didn't like any of the Spider-man movies. Truth be told, I only saw the first Raimi movie in theaters and haven't bothered to watch any of them since. I think I may have caught most of Spider-man 2 on HBO or something, but I didn't like that one, either. So, from where I sit, there are no good Spider-man movies. And I'm fine with that. Spider-man isn't a movie character. No super hero is. They are all comic book characters. They should only be drawn. Putting someone in a costume just looks stupid.