Escapist Podcast: 025: Are Modern RPGs Ruining the Genre?

The Escapist Staff

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025: Are Modern RPGs Ruining the Genre?

This week, we discuss if modern conveniences and mechanics are ruining the RPG genre. We also talk about Skullgirls, the claims of sexism against it and how gender effects the industry in other ways.

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Ramith

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Nov 7, 2011
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Authentic.

I think that hit it on the head for me when it comes to women gamers.

Susan's laid back attitude to the topic was quite refreshing. It was much like her podcast on women in video games. It's nice hearing about the topic from women who actually enjoy and play video games.

To be honest the whole Skullgirls thing threw me off. It seemed like someone was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

To move on to Skyrim, hardcore and normal mode seem like a fine compromise. Personally I can't stand being lost. I don?t enjoy searching high and low for the mountain to the north east, I'll take my marker please. Though to compromise again I don?t mind a few quests having only vague directions, like finding that woman from Hammerfall in Skyrim. Since it was only one quest, I just moved on when I couldn?t find the woman.

And Justin I think you should keep slipping in one reference to Baldurs Gate each episode.
 

newwiseman

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Now I really want to make a fighting game with nothing but chickens.., but peta will probably try to kill me for endorsing cockfights...
 

Nimzar

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I'm another person that kept Gorian's letter all through Baldur's Gate... and was a little bummed that it was gone in Baldur's Gate 2.

That said I think in terms of Modern RPG elements taking away from the experience... Morrowind was hard to get into for me because you pretty much had no point of reference to find things it was frustrating to look for a specific cave in that game. I think if Morrowind had marked the general location of a quest on the world map it would have been the perfect solution to that issue. You could tell you were in the general area but after that you'd have find the cave.
 

dnadns

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Jan 20, 2009
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What happened to the end of the podcast?
Censorship on Susan?
Did SOPA kick in preemptively?

Just joking, but the end seemed rather abrupt.
 

Nenad

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I just figured out the podcasts were on iTunes, BUT only episodes 16-this one. How do I download the rest (1-15)? I tried, I really did... I'm gonna a step-by-step instructions... >.<'

So far I figured out I have to get a link of the .mp3 file "from the player" somehow (someone else did this for me for testing purposes) , and that put it into iTunes (or maybe there's another way?), but when I do so, I can only listen to it, I can't find the download option for it in iTunes (I mean eps 1-15, I've already downloaded the rest).
 

-Dragmire-

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Mar 29, 2011
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I liked the Bard's Tale version of dealing with items and currency. All items had a set value that you were given the moment you picked the item up(as in auto conversion item(junk)->money). This worked because there was no stressing loot and no real inventory in that game, it was just weapons, armor, magic/tunes and crystals for magic summons.
 

Epona

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The problem with the junk filter in Dragon Age 2 was that it begs the question: "If it's junk, why is it even in the game". Sure, with TES you have bowls and stuff but those were used for decoration. If the designers call something junk, that means that it has no real purpose in the game at all.
 

dnadns

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Jan 20, 2009
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Nenad said:
I just figured out the podcasts were on iTunes, BUT only episodes 16-this one. How do I download the rest (1-15)? I tried, I really did... I'm gonna a step-by-step instructions... >.<'

So far I figured out I have to get a link of the .mp3 file "from the player" somehow (someone else did this for me for testing purposes) , and that put it into iTunes (or maybe there's another way?), but when I do so, I can only listen to it, I can't find the download option for it in iTunes (I mean eps 1-15, I've already downloaded the rest).
If I recall correctly, the podcast is not really on iTunes, but instead it uses the RSS feed to download the latest episode. That would also explain why you are not seeing the older episodes as a download option.

Crono1973 said:
The problem with the junk filter in Dragon Age 2 was that it begs the question: "If it's junk, why is it even in the game". Sure, with TES you have bowls and stuff but those were used for decoration. If the designers call something junk, that means that it has no real purpose in the game at all.
I bet that there was a meeting at Bioware where a couple of designers sat together and figured that it would be a really "meaningful decision" to figure out which junk to take and which to drop to get the most value out of your inventory space.
I don't really remember ever being in a tight financial situation in DA2, though, and if I recall correctly that would also be the reason which renders the entire mechanic meaningless in the overall context.
 

newdarkcloud

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You guys cut off the ONLY woman on the show.
That's sexist! You're sexist. (Just Kidding)

On a serious note, another good episode. I wonder what happened towards the end.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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Yeah, not sure what's up with it cutting off like that. I'll try to get a fixed version up asap.
 

[The]Rock

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About the UI design conversation, The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings' UI is quite similar to Dragon Age 2's when it come to calling stuff that you're never EVER going to use "Junk", it puts craftin ingedients in a crafting section, alchemy in an alchemy section and so on.

It's sort of hard to understand why game designers would make these systems that are difficult to use and still have them pass testing, are the testers simply too bored to care?
 

praetor_alpha

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Mar 4, 2010
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re: evil version

My aunt swears that she met a guy just like me (same sounding voice, hair color, hair style, age) in a grocery store once. That must have been my good twin. I also have a chin beard, and can do a bellowing villainous laugh reminiscent of Saturday morning cartoons.
 

Bostur

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I loved the hardcore mode of NV and would never consider playing without it. The great thing about that feature was that it was a (somewhat) supported feature that presumably had been tested. I think the argument that convenience features can be turned off or not used is a fallacy, because it's impossible to tell beforehand whether the game will work or feel balanced without it.
I'm an old school gamer and if I am presented with a set of house rules, I play by the rules even if I disagree with them, because that results in a better gameplay experience for everyone involved. That may sound silly in a single-player game where no one else is affected. However if a single-player game presents me with a specific ruleset, I have to assume that this is how the designer intended the game to be played, which would hopefully lead to the best gameplay experience.

More concretely turning off quest guides or modding away hints in a game often doesn't work so well if the world is lacking other types of guiding. Games without GPS aids relies on more subtle hints to guide the player. If the game doesn't have those hints turning off the GPS will leave the player blind. As players we simply don't know what feature set would work in this case until subsequent playthroughs.


On the matter of junk items, I think when DA2 took the step to label junk as junk was the point where they might as well have left it out completely. It seemed so obvious that the designers never even considered why games have 'junk' items and whether DA2 would be better off without them.
Junk can be used in a good way to 'clutter' the game world, to give the illusion that the world is bigger than it is. It's part of a magic trick, but the moment the mechanics of the illusion is shown is the moment it breaks. As players we really don't need to know that the junk serves no mechanical purpose.
DA:O used the classical approach to junk. The junk was not junk but vendor treasure. Bottles of Orlesian wine, expensive paintings, exquisite jewelry. It looked and felt like treasure. In DA2 junk was junk and therefore pointless. Even the icon was junk.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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While it is true that most fighting games are about the mechanics or appearance and not about the actual character, there also exists Blazblue with the storymode of a whole Jrpg infused into it's mix of epic mechanics and whatnot which kinda differentiates it from other fighters, in that game people usually just play who they like the best as a character (if they can manage their mechanics well enough) and I felt this oversight in mentioning it needed rectifying since today is the game's latest release in Japan.



Then we have things like marvel vs capcom where the characters are from comics or other games and also come in the game with a developed persona which people choose them based on, being able to use Amaterasu from Okami in a fighting game was so beyond awesome just because of the character being really amazing.


Talking about Amaterasu (here's how a real segway works, podfolks! :p) I think the part of femininity discussed here also comes in play. Amaterasu is a goddess...but her physical appearance in Okami is that of a male wolf, she even behaves like a wolf and not like a divine being in the shape of a wolf. How much would you guys say she is actually a strong female character whose sex simply doesn't matter at all to the plot (so, pretty much the perfect female protagonist) or would you say is she a character whose femininity is so eliminated that she doesn't even count as a female character at all any more?


Where do you think is the line between having a female character whose gender does not matter at all and having a character simply not be female at all?
 

Gloomsta

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Nimzar said:
I'm another person that kept Gorian's letter all through Baldur's Gate... and was a little bummed that it was gone in Baldur's Gate 2.

That said I think in terms of Modern RPG elements taking away from the experience... Morrowind was hard to get into for me because you pretty much had no point of reference to find things it was frustrating to look for a specific cave in that game. I think if Morrowind had marked the general location of a quest on the world map it would have been the perfect solution to that issue. You could tell you were in the general area but after that you'd have find the cave.
I found everything as a 11 year old kid, morrowind would suck without the requirement to find things, its like the only game where true exploration can take place. :<
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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Escapist Podcast Extended Edition! 7 minutes of bonus audio!

I fixed the ending cut off. It might take a little bit for it to propagate out to certain things like iTunes, but it plays all the way through on the site now.
 

Steve Butts

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Slycne said:
Escapist Podcast Extended Edition! 7 minutes of bonus audio!

I fixed the ending cut off. It might take a little bit for it to propagate out to certain things like iTunes, but it plays all the way through on the site now.
Thanks for editing that audio, video editor.