Escapist Podcast: Bonus: Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 2

Susan Arendt

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Jan 9, 2007
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Daystar Clarion said:
Susan Arendt said:
Duffeknol said:
"The Protheans made the Mass Relays, right?"

Oh my dear Shepard, this has been clear since part 1, lady...
I haven't played 1 or 2 since they came out, so I was a bit fuzzy on some of the lore. That's why I asked. :)
Pfft, real fans have encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that they can recall at any time, anywhere.

You disappoint me Susan, I thought you liked Mass Effect?
Only when EA pays me to.
 

Madkipz

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Susan Arendt said:
Darkmantle said:
what I learned from this podcast

The endings okay if you "magic wand" and "hand wave" every single problem with them and don;t care about deus ex machina.

great. couldn't that be said about anything?

EDIT: also, the ending being bad isn't based on it not have "kittens and rainbows", it's, like I said, because it's a plot hole filled deus ex machina that totally negates any choices you made. but hey, if you want to keep thinking everyone's issue is that it's not a super happy ending, then you can go right ahead. "fanboy" it up.
We raised plenty of issues that fans have with the endings. Details that don't make sense, lack of closure, lack of heroism, etc.at no point did we suggest the only reason people are upset is the lack of happy ending. Your hostility is out of place.
Yes, sadly it is, but that might be because the lot of you spent what felt like an agonizing amount of time talking about Kai Leng. ;p


The indoctrination theory is unfortunately wrong according to http://www.me3finalhours.com/

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"

So the ending is basically just bad writing on biowares part.

and that is not why players are up in arms about this ending. It boils down to choice, or lack there of. Bioware promoted their product as one with several endings depending on choice.

Now you get. Shepard dies, shepard dies, shepard dies and the rest can be hand-waved. They said 16 endings. This is simply not true and the one were shepard supposedly lives? That is simply just an easter egg to give a semblance of hope to people that this isn't the end.

And that end is so bad that it ruins the entire trilogy for anyone with more than one character. You know where shepard ends up now, so theres no point in playing it again.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Susan Arendt said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Susan Arendt said:
Duffeknol said:
"The Protheans made the Mass Relays, right?"

Oh my dear Shepard, this has been clear since part 1, lady...
I haven't played 1 or 2 since they came out, so I was a bit fuzzy on some of the lore. That's why I asked. :)
Pfft, real fans have encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that they can recall at any time, anywhere.

You disappoint me Susan, I thought you liked Mass Effect?
Only when EA pays me to.
Ah yes.

Digital Sushi filled me in about your 'arrangement'.

I still think money would have been better than baby lotion.
 

Foxblade618

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Apr 27, 2011
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Susan Arendt said:
Darkmantle said:
what I learned from this podcast

The endings okay if you "magic wand" and "hand wave" every single problem with them and don;t care about deus ex machina.

great. couldn't that be said about anything?

EDIT: also, the ending being bad isn't based on it not have "kittens and rainbows", it's, like I said, because it's a plot hole filled deus ex machina that totally negates any choices you made. but hey, if you want to keep thinking everyone's issue is that it's not a super happy ending, then you can go right ahead. "fanboy" it up.
We raised plenty of issues that fans have with the endings. Details that don't make sense, lack of closure, lack of heroism, etc.at no point did we suggest the only reason people are upset is the lack of happy ending. Your hostility is out of place.

Isn't that the truth. Check yourself mate. Excellent podcast guys, nice to hear new perspectives and get insight into different events from my game - for example, I had no idea Tali would just straight jump off that cliff, very interesting.
 

DaVash

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Oct 18, 2008
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I don?t hate the endings I just think all of them are ?meh? lots of MEH. I mean the endings are all similar your Shepard doesn?t even get to investigate/challenge the kid?s logic (with the typical ME style) none of the endings have any closure. (I mean I would love an epilogue telling me what happen to my crew/ results of all my actions etc)

So In my endings (destroy) with the relays gone I?m forced to assume that everyone is now stuck around earth. So the turians/quarians now face starving to death etc (all of this has been listed by others before)

And the biggest thing that bugs me is Planet X and my Squad member/LI (liara ) during the end run ending up on that planet unharmed? How did she get back on the ship? Why would she or any one apart of my squad leave shepard ?( heck I defiantly don?t see Garrus aka space batman leaving until the job is done even if shepard did die)


Oh and why was Joker flying away he didn't know the color of doom was going to mess the Normandy up. I just can't see him flying off during the fight

Edit: also I don't mine my Shepard giving his life heck It fits with my paragon Shep and the way I played me3 but the happy cake ending should still be available for people as well depending on all your choices
 

Emiscary

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I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question: are gaming journalists besides Yahtzee (that's something of a generous estimation of his job description, but I digress) not allowed to say anything negative or "divisive" as Bioware has retroactively decided to define to word? Like does he just meet your boat rocking quota for the year everytime or summat?
 

Susan Arendt

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Jan 9, 2007
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Emiscary said:
I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question: are gaming journalists besides Yahtzee (that's something of a generous estimation of his job description, but I digress) not allowed to say anything negative or "divisive" as Bioware has retroactively decided to define to word? Like does he just meet your boat rocking quota for the year everytime or summat?
We discussed several things we didn't like about the ending...how is that not saying something negative?
 

bootz

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Feb 28, 2011
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The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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bootz said:
The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
Like they said in the podcast.

It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility that that the relays were destroyed in a 'not wipeout the system' kind of way.
 

brodbeckchris

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Mar 16, 2012
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Great podcast, I just signed up because of this episode, I'm not sure if posting videolinks is allowed, if not, sorry, just wanted to contribute to the conversation.

The Indoctrination Theory explained: (Very good editing work)

http://youtu.be/Tbghjn7_Byc

Just one other clue: During ME1 and ME3 the Rachni discribe the Indoctrination process as "the oily shadows" or "oily songs", compare that discription to the "shadows" during the talk with the Illusive Man on the Citadel, shown in this video.
 

Duffeknol

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Susan Arendt said:
Duffeknol said:
"The Protheans made the Mass Relays, right?"

Oh my dear Shepard, this has been clear since part 1, lady...
I haven't played 1 or 2 since they came out, so I was a bit fuzzy on some of the lore. That's why I asked. :)
Pft, I'll be taking your nerd queen badge. Unless you give me the EA money.
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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The Escapist Staff said:
Bonus: Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 2

We continue our discussion of Mass Effect 3. What were our favorite and most memorable moments, what ending did we choose, what did we think of the endings and what do we think about the indoctrination theory? Obviously spoilers for Mass Effect 3, but we also briefly mention and spoil Fallout 3 and Jade Empire.

Watch Video
It's a shame that nobody picked the totally imaginary ending that I picked.

There was a thing that nobody noticed, because it only happened in my imagination, but there was a Renegade interrupt while you're talking to the Catalyst where you say "Do you know who the hell I am? I'm Commander fucking Shepard!" and you shoot the Catalyst in the head. Then he goes all incorporeal and possesses the Illusive Man's body. Then you have a big one on one fight with the Illusive Catalyst Man, and after you kill him all the Reapers go limp. Then Shepard gets Joker on the comm and says "It's over. Come pick me up. I'm on top of the Citadel."
It all ends with Admiral Hackett speaking at Anderson's funeral and all the surviving characters are in attendance.

It's a shame nobody got that ending on accounts of me only imagining that it happened.




34:50
You don't know. Maybe Turians are like Seahorses and the male has the baby. It could happen.


This is the first I've heard about the indoctrination theory, and I like it.
Now... consider this. Not being able to import your Shepard's face ties in really well to the Indoctrination theory because the whole game is slightly unfamiliar and just plain off if you're playing with your Not-Shep face. Maybe when they release the "true end" it will come with the face importing tools.


I would like the sunshine and rainbows, cake and beer ending. Although I would like the Shepard dies ending if it was just better. I'm with Justin the endings they presented did nothing except confuse and underwhelm me.

1:05:45
Oh god. I never bought any fish and it's weird because there are a couple times with people in your cabin bring it up. Most notably when you invite Tali up and she says "I didn't come up here to see your fish." Is "fish" some Quarian euphemism I should know about? Because my aquarium is empty.

Also when Traynor admires your empty aquarium. How hard would it have been to add a line along the lines of "Wow. Look at your aquarium, I've never seen one so...empty."
Missed opportunity.
 

Gigatoast

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Apr 7, 2010
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Daystar Clarion said:
bootz said:
The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
Like they said in the podcast.

It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility that that the relays were destroyed in a 'not wipeout the system' kind of way.
But honestly, that requires more baseless conjecture then the indoctrination theory. The only solid piece of canon pertaining to the situation is "when Mass Relays are destroyed they take the system with them", there's no fine print that says "unless they where destroyed via space magic". Everything beyond that established fact is just baseless.
 

Emiscary

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Sep 7, 2008
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Susan Arendt said:
We discussed several things we didn't like about the ending...how is that not saying something negative?
Hah! Warned you ahead of time it was rhetorical :p
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Gigatoast said:
Daystar Clarion said:
bootz said:
The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
Like they said in the podcast.

It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility that that the relays were destroyed in a 'not wipeout the system' kind of way.
But honestly, that requires more baseless conjecture then the indoctrination theory. The only solid piece of canon pertaining to the situation is "when Mass Relays are destroyed they take the system with them", there's no fine print that says "unless they where destroyed via space magic". Everything beyond that established fact is just baseless.
The only solid piece of canon we have is that Mass Relays explode when you slam an asteroid into them :D
 

Gigatoast

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Apr 7, 2010
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Daystar Clarion said:
Gigatoast said:
Daystar Clarion said:
bootz said:
The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
Like they said in the podcast.

It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility that that the relays were destroyed in a 'not wipeout the system' kind of way.
But honestly, that requires more baseless conjecture then the indoctrination theory. The only solid piece of canon pertaining to the situation is "when Mass Relays are destroyed they take the system with them", there's no fine print that says "unless they where destroyed via space magic". Everything beyond that established fact is just baseless.
The only solid piece of canon we have is that Mass Relays explode when you slam an asteroid into them :D
But they never said that only happened because they hit the thing with a giant rock, they just said that's what happens you destroy one. Not to mention the relays in the ending clearly did explode, like I said, to assume the effect would be any different would be pure conjecture.
 

Trishbot

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I hate the endings. I wish I didn't. Count me in as one of those that really wants something that doesn't kill more people and species than the all the Reapers combined.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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Susan Arendt said:
It's not like the endings are broken or anything....
Just taking this quote from the video because I just have to comment on it.

This is flat out incorrect. The canon endings of Mass Effect 3 are extremely broken on a very basic, narrative level. They fail miserably in a variety of ways, introducing plots holes and inconsistencies all over the place.

Really, it can be broken down into a few discrete points, some of which was covered in the video:

1) The logic behind the Reapers is asinine. Anyone with half a brain can understand that "In order to stop robots from kill you, I built robots to kill you first" is bad logic. Computers operate solely on logic. It's a bit outrageous to not expect a machine older than I can comprehend to spot that flaw.

2) There's absolutely no closure. You have no idea what happened to the Quarians, Geth, Krogan, Turian, your crew or the fleet you brought with you. It just ends, with no way of telling what kind of impact you just had on the galaxy.

3) It is tonally and thematically opposed to the entire rest of the series (and even the rest of ME3). The series as a whole has proven itself to revolve around a few core ideas: Tolerance and unity despite base differences leads to greater strength (in every meaning of the word), What it means to be a person, The importance of free will, and Optimism even in the face of armageddon.

The canon endings spit in the face of all of that. They are tonally very, very dark, and Shepard just meekly accepts everything the Catalyst says, despite it going against every one (or most, depending) of his/her principles (and the themes I list above). It just comes out of nowhere and goes directly against what the games have been trying to establish.

4) Plot holes galore. The Normandy suddenly running away from the battle, the Relays exploding but not killing everything in the galaxy, Anderson and TIM magically appearing on the Citadel, the beam of death somehow not instantly killing Shepard, etc.

The canon endings are incredibly broken, at the most basic levels of narrative. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of simply broken literary mechanics. They might have been able to salvage it (or at least fix the worst of the flaws) if they had just cut out the Catalyst conversation and Joker flying away and added in a DA:O style end montage to wrap things up, but since they didn't, it came out utterly broken.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Gigatoast said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Gigatoast said:
Daystar Clarion said:
bootz said:
The wounded Batarian on the citadel confirms that destroying a mass relay burned up his system.
Like they said in the podcast.

It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility that that the relays were destroyed in a 'not wipeout the system' kind of way.
But honestly, that requires more baseless conjecture then the indoctrination theory. The only solid piece of canon pertaining to the situation is "when Mass Relays are destroyed they take the system with them", there's no fine print that says "unless they where destroyed via space magic". Everything beyond that established fact is just baseless.
The only solid piece of canon we have is that Mass Relays explode when you slam an asteroid into them :D
But they never said that only happened because they hit the thing with a giant rock, they just said that's what happens you destroy one. Not to mention the relays in the ending clearly did explode, like I said, to assume the effect would be any different would be pure conjecture.
And surely it's conjecture to assume that destroying a Mass Relay with anything but a giant rock would result in the same result?
 

Susan Arendt

Nerd Queen
Jan 9, 2007
7,222
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0
Agayek said:
Susan Arendt said:
It's not like the endings are broken or anything....
Just taking this quote from the video because I just have to comment on it.

This is flat out incorrect. The canon endings of Mass Effect 3 are extremely broken on a very basic, narrative level. They fail miserably in a variety of ways, introducing plots holes and inconsistencies all over the place.

Really, it can be broken down into a few discrete points, some of which was covered in the video:

1) The logic behind the Reapers is asinine. Anyone with half a brain can understand that "In order to stop robots from kill you, I built robots to kill you first" is bad logic. Computers operate solely on logic. It's a bit outrageous to not expect a machine older than I can comprehend to spot that flaw.

2) There's absolutely no closure. You have no idea what happened to the Quarians, Geth, Krogan, Turian, your crew or the fleet you brought with you. It just ends, with no way of telling what kind of impact you just had on the galaxy.

3) It is tonally and thematically opposed to the entire rest of the series (and even the rest of ME3). The series as a whole has proven itself to revolve around a few core ideas: Tolerance and unity despite base differences leads to greater strength (in every meaning of the word), What it means to be a person, The importance of free will, and Optimism even in the face of armageddon.

The canon endings spit in the face of all of that. They are tonally very, very dark, and Shepard just meekly accepts everything the Catalyst says, despite it going against every one (or most, depending) of his/her principles (and the themes I list above). It just comes out of nowhere and goes directly against what the games have been trying to establish.

4) Plot holes galore. The Normandy suddenly running away from the battle, the Relays exploding but not killing everything in the galaxy, Anderson and TIM magically appearing on the Citadel, the beam of death somehow not instantly killing Shepard, etc.

The canon endings are incredibly broken, at the most basic levels of narrative. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of simply broken literary mechanics. They might have been able to salvage it (or at least fix the worst of the flaws) if they had just cut out the Catalyst conversation and Joker flying away and added in a DA:O style end montage to wrap things up, but since they didn't, it came out utterly broken.
I meant in the way a gameplay mechanic can be broken. You can argue things like tone, you can get different interpretations...there aren't different interpretations to "this skill one hit kills." That was the point I was making.