Escapist Readers take on table top in a digital age.

[phoenixsflame [deprecated]]

I know the Escapist has broached the subject a few times, and I've always been interested in people's thoughts/opinions and techniques.

Where do you think the Table Top gamer stands in this day and age? In all seriousness, it seem's like we're facing a phasing out of our existance akin to the death of the Radio Drama/Show. I know there will always be a place in our hearts for these things, and maybe our children will grow to love them as well.

The general trend is a growing loss of table top, personal gatherings at homes and other locales, to an internet gathering for raid's on a WoW server that take four hours.

There have been attempts (NWN and a few notable others) at gathering the true spirit of a tabletop game into a digital one, the question I pose; Is this possible? Given pencils and paper, books and dice lend to the game a certain mind-set that is almost in opposition with the MMO philosophy.

Will there be a true transferance of Table Top gaming into Digital Gaming? I've played a few digital games, chat-room once a week gatherings. Play by Mail games... I think I've done most of the things possible for role playing experiences online, including the GUI MMO's.

Anyone have any positive/negative/neutral experiences they'd like to share?

 

[Joe]

Just one man's opinion, but I don't think tabletop gaming will ever go away completely. Yeah, the industry is losing diversity (funnily enough, though, D&D has never been more popular), but sites like drivethrurpg let small-time developers get their games out to the people who still want varied experiences.

As far as transference goes, I think tabletop games can amically be played online. I ran a Mage game for a while that was pretty successful, albiet slow. Streamlining the process couldn't be too terrible - I mean, most popular MMOGs are based on tabletop-like systems, even if the gameplay has strayed into whack a mole.

Funny story in this vein: We met Steve Jackson at a party at this year's GDC, and he definitely wasn't there to talk new tabletop games.

 

[phoenixsflame [deprecated]]

I tend to agree, I think there will always be tabletop games. But, as it stands they're dying off in a pretty nasty way. I think it will end up going the route of HomeBrew 2D games that are out there right now... It'll be the diehards using e-Books and PDF files ...

I've played and ran a few games online as well, and I think it's an enjoyable way to do it, but it lacks the Role Play that comes about in tabel top (at least in my groups, I am not saying all groups because we've all been to the Hack'N'Slash/Whack a Mole campaign)

I think the reason diversity is dying, is because of the D20 system. People can instead of creating an entire new ruleset, create simply a setting and apply it to the D20 system, while that leads to ease of knowing the system. It ends up turning all the settings into simple modifications on the same thing and there is no true innovation of role playing in a system that has been simplified to the extreme.

Or that's my take on it. I'm not a big fan of the D20 system, and it probably comes across, but I see no problem in people enjoying it, it's just not something I do.

 

[Virgil]

Though the tabletop games you're referring to are specifically PnP RPGs, one interesting thing is that tabletop gaming in general appears to be growing in the US. There's certainly more interesting games being produced right now. Sure, it'll always be a smaller market than video games, but there's no reason to assume that it won't exist perfectly fine. The staff here do actually play tabletop games with/against each other regularly - I wrote up a small review of our last session for another site: http://wow.warcry.com/content/misc/boardgame

I think the real issue with PnP RPGs is that they require a significant time commitment/investment for a bunch of different people who also have to be located in proximity of each other. It's like a raid experience in an MMO, except you have a significantly smaller pool of potential players. The whole D20 thing doesn't necessarily help either.

 

[phoenixsflame [deprecated]]

One of the reasons I was considering its ultimate demise, is because just as SNS has begun to replace going out and meeting people among your school/work etc for the moderate to extremely shy. I wonder how much of this will inevitably be replaced by the SNS of gaming, MMO's.

I mean, the more extroverted of us (myself included) will post flyers in gaming/comic shops for D&D/WoD gaming, etc. But, the shyer of us will avoid this at all costs. They just don't have the social fortitude to go out and try to find people face to face. Thus, a potentially large group of Table Top gamers could turn completely digital.

 

[Archon]

As a gamemaster over the past fifteen years I've never found tabletop players to be in short supply. My group today is larger than it was when tabletop gaming was its "peak." Many people love playing RPGs, and a large number more are open to it and find they enjoy it. The time requirement for a player is not steep; really, it requires no more brainpower or time commitment for the players to come play D&D than to come play a game of Poker.

The core problem with tabletop gaming is that it requires a gamemaster, and that's a hard thing to find. Being a gamemaster demands enough extroversion to be comfortable speaking and managing a group of 4-10 players; enough introversion to enjoy spending isolated time reading rules and writing adventures; enough attention to detail to manage the characters and campaign; enough creativity to tell a story in fine form; and enough free time for all of the above. The introverted-extroverted detailed creative is simply a rare bird, and usually has lots of other hobbies and interests competing for his attention.

I think the reason Magic: The Gathering took off so explosively is that it gave the RPG feel to players (interactive fantasy socialization), without requiring a gamemaster. Likewise, if computers killed tabletop gaming it's only because people have better options than playing with a bad GM (or playing at all in the absence of one).

 

[phoenixsflame [deprecated]]

But, it creates a block. I don't think it is a bad thing as long as there is still a social environment face to face for gamers and people who are all too often more than a little shy.

What we have now, is a game and culture that encourages you to hide. I think the problem with the MMO age, is that it is trivial and meaningless. There is no consequence to the character death other than a few points here and there. I'm not saying all MMO players are introverted nerds, I'm saying that MMO's have a certain draw to those who are introverted socially because it allows them a facsimile of social interaction while keeping the walls at a comfortable level.

It's the difference between being In Character and simply a person playing an avatar with your own personality attached to it. We're not talking just about the social aspect, but what it means to gaming. MMO's have destroyed Character Creation and Role Playing online, and that is something that I view as negative.

 

[phoenixsflame [deprecated]]

I agree Archon. I think that is one of the crippling parts of Table Top, is there has to be the Leader of the group. There has to be the one who desires to run the game, and does not half ass it because HE wants to be a player.

This is why I am curious to see if anyone has any concepts/thoughts on how to make a Digital Game truly engaging. I read the piece on the escapist, and that was an interesting insight... However, it made me wonder if Table Top RPG's, digitally speaking, are going to be more akin to the MUD/MUSH Text Based Adventure gaming Genre. Will tabletop, if it goes online, stay mainly rooted a in Chat/Email/Text based existance?

Or will there be someway to cross over into the GUI?

 

[Virgil]

As a gamemaster over the past fifteen years I've never found tabletop players to be in short supply. My group today is larger than it was when tabletop gaming was its "peak."

I don't know - we're kind of a special case. If you don't already have a group of friends who would be playing, I think it's pretty unlikely that you're going to find a group of co-workers to give it a go. At that point you really have to go out of your way to find people to play with (unless you hang out at a comic/game shop) and, with all the other entertainment possibilities there are, I don't think many people are willing to put in that effort.

Of course, the gamemaster thing is certainly another problem.

 

[Bongo Bill]

I feel tabletop has always been a niche and will always be a niche - sometimes swelling, sometimes shrinking, newcomers coming and going all the time - it won't go away, but it won't get big either. It's a social experience that taps into a timeless need (structured group play), but the specifics of it are extremely nerdy (the structures in particular). And for many people, good GMs are very hard to come by.

There will always be people (or for as long as it matters, anyway) and there will always be games, and as a result there will always be people who want to play games with other people. And as long as some of these people like more imaginative games, then there will be something like tabletop gaming.


That said, it tabletop gaming wants to grow (and let's face it - it does) then it has to find ways to make games for people who aren't interested in rulemongering or Tolkien fantasy. This has pretty well started. It also has to find a way to move out of specialty gaming shops and into the places where mainstream board games are found... which is a question every nerdy entertainment industry from comic books to video games will be asking itself time and time again in the coming decade(s).

 

[infernomatic]

I think tabletops like D&D will stand the test of time, just like games like Monopoly or Poker will most likely not get to a point where they're played in a strictly digital environment... or M:tG for that matter. W/ CRPG's and MMOG's you don't get the same kind of interaction you experience from gathering w/ a group of friends and fleshing out a character, or telling a story, or etc...

We used to tabletop once a month religiously on BSA campouts (D&D, AD&D, homebrews...) and then for 1 to 6 weeks straight during summer camp. I own a bunch of different White Wolf books myself, and would still play if I could find a group. I'm a helluva better player than a DM though.

As was mentioned above, you have to have a group that's commited and someone w/ even more dedication to run the show.

It also has to find a way to move out of specialty gaming shops and into the places where mainstream board games are found... which is a question every nerdy entertainment industry from comic books to video games will be asking itself time and time again in the coming decade(s).

I think the move to sell D&D products in stores like Wal-mart was a sweet decision. Too bad you can't sit and have a gaming session in Wal-mart like you can in a hobby shop though. >:OD

 

[svallee]

I think the reason Magic: The Gathering took off so explosively is that it gave the RPG feel to players (interactive fantasy socialization), without requiring a gamemaster.

I'm not sure how you roleplay, but roleplaying and Magic is two completelly different worlds. Roleplaying is about acting out roles, interaction and story telling. Whereas Magic is straight down to numbers and mathematic formulae. I think the real reason why Magic almost killed RPGs is that it's simply easier to play and much, much shorter. And you don't have to rely on a full group to show up. You can play with anybody, anywhere, anytime.

 

[svallee]

I'm big video gamer, and also making a living programming them. That said, I enjoy boardgaming as much as video games. But then I'm not talking about the old, horrible ones you get in a Toys'R'Us, but about the "german" style boardgames. Like Puerto Rico, Power Grid, Amun-Re, Edel Stein & Reich, Pirate's Cove, Settlers of the Stone Age, etc. Those are amazing products, brilliant designs, and beautiful material to manipulate.

I think the reason why those europeans boardgames aren't well known by the american public is that in the people's mind, the word "boardgames" bring up the Monopoly, Risk and, worst, Candyland and Life picture. A good rule of thumb is, if you can find a boardgame in Toys'R'Us, chances are it's not a good game. Which is sad, would the great german style games been carried by TrU, the public would finally be aware of them...

 

[Archon]

I have to respectfully disagree that Magic and roleplaying are two completely different worlds. They're sold in the exact same stores. They're marketed to the exact same audience. They're played by the exact same demographic of people. They're covered in the exact same magazines. Yes, one involves "acting out roles" and the other is "numbers and mathematical formulae" but if you've ever seen someone make a D&D 3.0 character there's plenty of numbers and mathematical formulae at hand; and the vast majority of RPG groups I've seen involve a lot more friendly socialization of the "are there any girls there" style than heavy RP, and it's just that type of friendly socialization that Magic also provides. Fundamentally both combine fantasy escapist entertainment with socialization with like-minded peers and so they're both satisfying the same need. And, as you said, Magic is simply easier to play.

If Magic was easier to play but had nothing to do with RPGs, it couldn't kill them, in the same way that touch football is never going to kill RPGs. Magic could only kill RPGs because it was so similar.

I'll even go one point further and say that surviving RPG groups are probably notable for how lengthy, in-character, and fluid their sessions are, compared to groups pre-Magic, because the RPG groups that liked their action fast, their rules crunchy, and their RP light have probably already switched over to card games.

 

[goffers [deprecated]]

If we want more PnP RPers then we have to CREATE them! Find a young nerdling and convert him (or her--well okay let's get real--him)! You have to spread the neutral good word! Can I have a hallelujah!? Can I have an AMEN!?