European Street Protest Against ACTA Draws Over 30,000

RoonMian

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Therumancer said:
To be honest, all hype aside (and comments about how they would never go to war) I'd imagine if the US went to war like I describe to leverage China and other robber economies France and Germany are two of the nations that would be right behind us given their huge levels of victimization by REAL IP/patent thefts and knockoffs.
Germany cannot actively go to war unless it is a defensive one when one of the NATO countries is attacked. USA attacking China for economic reasons... Will have to do it without Germany.

And now I feel awkward for even trying to counter that ridiculous extremism with fact.
 

Casual Shinji

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SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
If I'm ever going to rally against anything, it'll be Guy Fawkes masks.

I'm so fucking sick of that pretentious symbolic bullshit.

As for ACTA... Yeah sorry, I don't really give a shit.
Congratulations. Way to be a part of the problem, on top of being completely clueless on what the Guy Fawkes masks have come to symbolize.
Everyone is part of a problem in one way or another, even you.

And all the Guy Fawkes mask has come to represent is people whining like little babies about nearly anything internet related.
 

castlewise

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Jul 18, 2010
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Rainboq said:
Canada signed ACTA, ugh, that's what we get for electing the Conservatives who want to be tough on crime without actually FIXING THE PROBLEM of crime. By lessening the social pressures that lead to crime through government programs aimed at those most susceptible. But nope, why not just throw them into an overburdened prison system and see how that goes.
Hey that sounds really familiar. Sounds like your conservatives are picking up ideas from your southern neighbor. (sorry about that)
 

Flames66

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Yopaz said:
Man, I feel so ashamed that I live in one of those countries that don't seem to care...

Edit: Although I did participate in the protest against watching our internet activity and that didn't do anything. They even pretended they didn't know we were against it when we were standing outside the building where they approved it... I grotesting this time wont help any more than the last time.
I would have been involved in protests in my city, if there were any. Unfortunately, around here people believe that the government does what it likes regardless. Instead of being at a protest myself, I have been emailing my local representative and will be doing so again later today.

Casual Shinji said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
If I'm ever going to rally against anything, it'll be Guy Fawkes masks.

I'm so fucking sick of that pretentious symbolic bullshit.

As for ACTA... Yeah sorry, I don't really give a shit.
Congratulations. Way to be a part of the problem, on top of being completely clueless on what the Guy Fawkes masks have come to symbolize.
Everyone is part of a problem in one way or another, even you.

And all the Guy Fawkes mask has come to represent is people whining like little babies about nearly anything internet related.
Watch the film "V for Vendetta", that is what people are trying to symbolise by wearing the mask. They are talking about the power of the people against those in authority.
 

Keava

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RoonMian said:
Therumancer said:
To be honest, all hype aside (and comments about how they would never go to war) I'd imagine if the US went to war like I describe to leverage China and other robber economies France and Germany are two of the nations that would be right behind us given their huge levels of victimization by REAL IP/patent thefts and knockoffs.
Germany cannot actively go to war unless it is a defensive one when one of the NATO countries is attacked. USA attacking China for economic reasons... Will have to do it without Germany.

And now I feel awkward for even trying to counter that ridiculous extremism with fact.
If any country these days would even think of attacking China They would find themselves without money to fund the campaign anyway. Most of national debts are at least partially held by China. Have fun.
Why do You think it's okay to fight for "freedom" and "human rights" in places like Iraq, Afghanistan and so on, but You won't hear a bad word about China from officials ? Western world can't do a thing to the biggest and currently, most thriving, economy in the world. It would be insanity... And good luck convincing Russia to even allow You to use their air space.

On topic however. The problem with ACTA is how it phrases stuff, like with all such bills and agreements. They are way too vague and open to interpretation which causes whole lot of issues. Sure the idea is noble, but it all comes down to execution. That's why in most countries where ACTA was discussed the first to rise red flags were institutions that deal with basic civil and privacy rights.

Another thing is the fact that big corporations having such influence over international laws. Thing is They still think people with blindly buy overpriced products, throwing money into Their, and only Their pockets. Times changed. Ever since services like iTunes or Netflix became popular we were given alternatives. You don't have to buy a full music album for single song, You don't have to pay all the "profit margin" fee's to retailers and distributors and can actually support artists directly.
I recently talked with one of writers in my country who told me that one of biggest media retailers here puts up a 75 % profit margin on books. This means 75% of a book cost goes to the retailer, not the publisher nor the writer behind it.
Industry needs to move forward and accept new trends. People who use internet regularly are often the most aware consumers, and They do research the options before deciding on purchase. Recent studies done showed, that even tho the problem of piracy is obvious and widespread, it's still the same group that spends the most money on all kinds of media, legally, while people who do not use internet spend way less on books/music/movies.

Thing is the big corporation feel threatened by the fact They will loose control over the products, because why do You need a contract with huge music company, which has very little benefits for You as an artist, when You can sell Yourself on Your own through internet, and get majority of the share into Your pocket instead?
Even the recent Tim Schafer's success on kickstarter shows, that if You provide good product You can count on Your fans to throw money at You if You just simply ask them, cutting out the middle man entirely from the process.

Bottom line is, ACTA is just another try to keep status quo without any real benefits for either artists or consumers.
 

Sizzle Montyjing

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Apr 5, 2011
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Well this is pretty good news!
Although, it's a massive shame that the UK didn't seem to be so involved.

Also fishy how almost no major news outlets seem to be covering this...
 

chstens

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Cid SilverWing said:
chstens said:
There are times like this when I'm really glad Norway is not a part of the EU. ACTA is not covered under the EEA, so even if ACTA passes in the rest of Europe, it won't count here.
You and me both, comrade.

Anyone else get a Nazi vibe from all this pushing of copyright laws?
Oh absolutely, now let's sit down and drink akvavit with our Lutefisk before we clear the streets of polar bears.
 

Casual Shinji

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SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
If I'm ever going to rally against anything, it'll be Guy Fawkes masks.

I'm so fucking sick of that pretentious symbolic bullshit.

As for ACTA... Yeah sorry, I don't really give a shit.
Congratulations. Way to be a part of the problem, on top of being completely clueless on what the Guy Fawkes masks have come to symbolize.
Everyone is part of a problem in one way or another, even you.

And all the Guy Fawkes mask has come to represent is people whining like little babies about nearly anything internet related.
Oh great, yet another one of these would be intellectuals. You do know that those people trying to fight against ACTA are NOT a part of the problem, they're the ones actually doing something while you stew in your arrogance, riding in on that high horse of yours thinking that this pretentious "everyone's a part of the problem" attitude helps.

And just because there are idiots using the Fawkes masks to demonstrate their stupidity (which has happened with every symbol everywhere), it doesn't take away from the validity of what it represents for the vocal generation that is trying to fight for their freedoms.
I said "a problem" not "the problem".

And it's also this "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that these ACTA protestors have that makes my blood boil. I say I don't really give a shit about ACTA, and suddenly I'm the bad guy.

Of course, seeing as you seem to have your head firmly lodged somewhere where the sun doesn't shine, I wouldn't be surprised that you've missed that point.
And I have high horse?
 

Flames66

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Casual Shinji said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Casual Shinji said:
If I'm ever going to rally against anything, it'll be Guy Fawkes masks.

I'm so fucking sick of that pretentious symbolic bullshit.

As for ACTA... Yeah sorry, I don't really give a shit.
Congratulations. Way to be a part of the problem, on top of being completely clueless on what the Guy Fawkes masks have come to symbolize.
Everyone is part of a problem in one way or another, even you.

And all the Guy Fawkes mask has come to represent is people whining like little babies about nearly anything internet related.
Oh great, yet another one of these would be intellectuals. You do know that those people trying to fight against ACTA are NOT a part of the problem, they're the ones actually doing something while you stew in your arrogance, riding in on that high horse of yours thinking that this pretentious "everyone's a part of the problem" attitude helps.

And just because there are idiots using the Fawkes masks to demonstrate their stupidity (which has happened with every symbol everywhere), it doesn't take away from the validity of what it represents for the vocal generation that is trying to fight for their freedoms.
I said "a problem" not "the problem".

And it's also this "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that these ACTA protestors have that makes my blood boil. I say I don't really give a shit about ACTA, and suddenly I'm the bad guy.

Of course, seeing as you seem to have your head firmly lodged somewhere where the sun doesn't shine, I wouldn't be surprised that you've missed that point.
And I have high horse?
Wow wow wow guys, hold your (high) horses! A large part of what we are fighting for here is freedom of expression. This guy is as free to say that ACTA is not a problem as we are to say it is. A better way to respond is to provide information as to why we think the way we do and let other people make up their own minds.

Here is a link to ACTAs text: http://www.international.gc.ca/trad...ciaux/assets/pdfs/acta-crc_apr15-2011_eng.pdf

Here is a link to an article about its possible effects: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/london/how-acta-would-affect-you-faq/2773
 

LordFisheh

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Casual Shinji said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Casual Shinji said:
If I'm ever going to rally against anything, it'll be Guy Fawkes masks.

I'm so fucking sick of that pretentious symbolic bullshit.

As for ACTA... Yeah sorry, I don't really give a shit.
Especially since Fawkes' goal was to end the slightly more egalitarian Protestant revolution in England by restoring Catholic domination.

We'd probably be living in a facist police state if he had succeeded.

Damn kids need to read some fucking history books.
I'm just tired of seeing that fucking thing everywhere.

Like anyone who adorns their face, clothing, or website with it is suddenly making some highly important statement.
I agree about it being for the most part a silly and pretentious symbol.

But on the other hand, this is where symbols come from. I'm sure most people would have scoffed at the early Christian symbols as rabble rousing nonsense, and while I'm not saying that they were right or wrong, look at the importance of those symbols today. And while I'm sure many people flashing V masks left right and centre are just mindlessly 'sticking it to the Man', you can't deny that there are also people with genuine sincerity and concern who've also taken it as a symbol and may yet make something good of it.
 

Octorok

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Ah, what? I didn't know! I'm not saying I would have definitely gone (I live in Scotland, and I'd feel a bit silly protesting with the tiny number of people who turned out), but nonetheless, I had no idea this was on.

Add 1 protestor (absent in body, present in spirit) to the UK anti-ACTA group.

You know, as a general rule, I always disliked the whole macho-internet-Anonymous "Down With Governments!" thing. I felt it was overly dramatic and that, on the whole, governments couldn't be *that* bad in a civilised country, right?

But as years go by, all I see are corrupt politicians serving their own interests, governments attempting to force further control over their people, governments failing to address important issues properly, governments failing to represent the will of the people, and a string of political parties and candidates who have somehow managed to be universally loathed.

See, in the UK, despite being "opposing" parties, Labour under Tony Blair/Gordron Brown and Conservative under David Cameron are, in fact, very similar, and both were pretty unpopular.

I find myself faced with a selection of political choices, and they're all wrong. I wish the people of this country would wake the fuck up and demand political change.
 

zefiris

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And all the Guy Fawkes mask has come to represent is people whining like little babies about nearly anything internet related.
So, the masks represent users like "Casual Shinji"? I mean, 'whining like a little baby' would be covered by "Casual Shinji", for example, as would being ignorant. You do not need to cry this much about people exercising their right to protest bad government decisions. In fact, that you do shows that you completely fail to understand how democracy is supposed to work, which is very sad in itself - either your education was terrible, or you didn't listen. I don't know which of the two is worse.

On the mask:
Guy Fawkes was indeed a pretty dangerous man historically. The mask isn't taken for him, though. It's more a reference to V for Vendetta, a movie.
See, in the real world, symbols change. Most of the symbols you are used to do not mean what they mean because this is a part of the symbol. Symbols hold their meaning because of what we understand them as. And that understanding changes.

Many christian symbols are actually pagan in origin, for example.

What the real Guy Fawkes stood for is meaningless at this point. The mask has a different meaning now.


Seriously, what have we come to that we think protests - a democratic right that our ancestors fought and died to achieve - are a "bad thing"?
 

Staskala

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Flames66 said:
Wow wow wow guys, hold your (high) horses! A large part of what we are fighting for here is freedom of expression. This guy is as free to say that ACTA is not a problem as we are to say it is. A better way to respond is to provide information as to why we think the way we do and let other people make up their own minds.

Here is a link to ACTAs text: http://www.international.gc.ca/trad...ciaux/assets/pdfs/acta-crc_apr15-2011_eng.pdf

Here is a link to an article about its possible effects: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/london/how-acta-would-affect-you-faq/2773
No, how about you actually explain yourself why ACTA, a trade agreement, is a serious threat to "freedom of expression".
I've noticed that a lot of the ACTA protestors have no idea what they are talking about and just randomly quote polarized, factually wrong essays about what ACTA is supposed to do. I can do that too, see here why the impact of ACTA is allegedly overrated [http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/10/pseudo_masochism_explained/]. Either discuss ACTA by actually quoting, you know, ACTA or don't bother.

As welcomed as the anti-ACTA protests and their clear signal to politicians are, everything is meaningless if they only happened because people were riled up with misinformation.
 

Flames66

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Staskala said:
Flames66 said:
Wow wow wow guys, hold your (high) horses! A large part of what we are fighting for here is freedom of expression. This guy is as free to say that ACTA is not a problem as we are to say it is. A better way to respond is to provide information as to why we think the way we do and let other people make up their own minds.

Here is a link to ACTAs text: http://www.international.gc.ca/trad...ciaux/assets/pdfs/acta-crc_apr15-2011_eng.pdf

Here is a link to an article about its possible effects: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/london/how-acta-would-affect-you-faq/2773
No, how about you actually explain yourself why ACTA, a trade agreement, is a serious threat to "freedom of expression".
I've noticed that a lot of the ACTA protestors have no idea what they are talking about and just randomly quote polarized, factually wrong essays about what ACTA is supposed to do. I can do that too, see here why the impact of ACTA is allegedly overrated [http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/10/pseudo_masochism_explained/]. Either discuss ACTA by actually quoting, you know, ACTA or don't bother.
Very well then. After reading ACTA myself, here is what I Emailed to my local representative:

"While I can see that ACTA does not in and of itself enact any laws, it opens the door for Europe wide legislation suppressing human rights. One of the main problems is that copyright laws as they stand are outdated, poorly defined and heavily focused on the interests of large corporations. In the past, it has been possible to get around these issues by choosing "the best of a bad bunch", however this move to standardise copyright internationally has highlighted how poor the current systems are.

Having read ACTA, I see that it is itself vaguely worded in order to cover as wide a scope as possible. Almost all sections are open to interpretation and abuse, particularly Chapter 2 Section 5 paragraph 5, relating to circumventing technological measures, which could criminalise harmless modifications to commercial products and services. There would also be an "ACTA Committee" appointed which would not be answerable to any elected representative, meaning that the agreement could be changed without due process. "

Staskala said:
As welcomed as the anti-ACTA protests and their clear signal to politicians are, everything is meaningless if they only happened because people were riled up with misinformation.
Getting people who may be unwilling to or incapable of reading and understanding something to see how it could effect them and act on it is an important part of any movement. It is as important here as it is with climate change or the financial crisis.