Eve Online Panel Encourages Harassing Suicidal Player

[Chadling]

It's a real shame that none of the good things eve players do for each other make the news... seriously, my corporation and alliance are some really good people. I can remember one guy ( a math major ) who tutored me in Precalculus over skype and saved me from failing math. Or this one time when we helped one of the alliance commanders make it through his divorce (which was likely brought on by his being an alliance commander but no one said anything about that).

I take some comfort in the fact that CCP has a history of really bringing the hammer down on this sort of thing, and that a few people will be seeing perma-bans and likely termination notices, in the case of the representatives.

Remember this is a news article though. We're coming at it from a different perspective, I'm assuming they were taking it as forum troll from a drama queen. Which you know, you do meet that sort of person on forums.

It's probably a good reason never to forum harass or troll to the best of your ability though, because you never know where the other person is actually at

There is also this possibility, that it was just an average nerd rage or drama queen. But encouraging someone to kill his or herself is still really fucked up even if you think you are trolling.

Yeah..... the controversies, the heists, and the scams are what make the headlines, but you don't hear about some of the really positive things that EVE players do for each other. Once you get past that, EVE players (with possible exception of the Goons or some of the uber-1337 corps out there) are pretty chill.

I used to play with a guy who was recovering from being paralyzed from the waist down from a work accident. I didn't know this at the time, but he was basically using the game and our camaraderie to stay sane despite the fact that he was in pretty much constant pain. Later, when he said that he was going into surgery to try to repair some of the damage to his back and apologizing for his absence, I immediately heckled him for apologizing when he said that it restored some of his control to his hands.

But the goons are jackasses. Don't trust a goon unless you are a goon.

 

[Mannhammer]

I'm interested in what CCP will do with this CSM. Considering they clearly violated the EVE online terms of service. Specifically 1,2 and 29 and maybe 7 I'm not sure about state/national law on the subject.

EVE online Terms of service:
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp
Revision date: 01-31-2008

 

[Beryl77]

I find it hard to believe that this is true, probably some misunderstanding or it's blown out of proportion. It is beyond me how anyone could think that it's a good idea to do this on a public event.

 

[flames09]

I was really thinking of getting into this game, but I have completely been turned of it now.

 

[Vivi22]

Relax a bit. Truthfully I suspect CCP is out of line here.

My immediate thoughts are that the player expressing the sucidal thoughts was being a drama queen and annoying people, perhaps even trying to use those tendencies as a way of begging ISK /ships/etc... off of people. There are a few people who play the whole "emo" card for this reason in every MMO and some become quite infamous on their servers, with one server I'm guessing this guy became famous enough to get the attention of the (un)official reps.

So someone might be claiming to be suicidal for personal gain, therefore they should not only be ignored, but outright harassed because of it? Sorry, but that is exactly the wrong way to deal with someone who is potentially suicidal. The fact is, regardless of how many people they may have told (the article indicating it was private communication to another player), handling it this way when none of these people are in a position to know whether they're serious or not is not only idiotic, it's downright negligent. If they believe they're lying or simply don't care if they're serious, the better response would be to ignore them. But outright harassing someone, which in all likelihood could push them to kill themselves if they're serious is utterly moronic and inhuman. There is no justification for it.

Sorry if this sounds cold, but I've seen similar things in MMOs, and not everyone who sounds suicidal actually is, and anyone who plays that game, especially in the long term to become infamous at it, is going to have picked up the right "signs" to drop into the message.

What's your point? Again, without knowing the person personally outside of the game, to treat someone who's expressing suicidal thoughts as though they were faking it is idiotic because you can't know if they're serious. The right thing to do would be to try and get them help (which CCP even mentions having a suicide hotline service for). Lay people in an online game cannot make the determination that someone is simply faking it, and telling people at a convention to harass them until they do it should be fucking criminal.

Claiming to be suicidal or "fragile" in some way is not a get out of jail free card for any behavior

No it's not. Neither is some people using it that way an acceptable justification for laughing at people talking about suicide and suggesting people harass them until they do it. Yeah, someone trying to scam stuff from people by pretending to be suicidal is a dick move. But treating suicidal thoughts as a joke and trying to make them do it is inhuman. Even if the guy was trying to scam people, the ones suggesting he be harassed are the bigger scum bags by far.

CSM council members exist to do things in the community that CCP generally can't, including helping to observe and "regulate" player behavior and trends therein. Deciding to effectively cut the attention being given to an infamous game-wide drama magnet is actually the kind of reason it exists (whether you believe it should exist or not).

Apparently they also exist to be complete assholes with no concept of the value of human life. You know, the sort of thing CCP can't do, and if they have anything resembling a conscience, which seems to be the case, wouldn't want anyone doing for them.

Frankly, and I say this understanding full well that perhaps the person in question was pretending to be suicidal, the CSM member responsible for this presentation should be permanently banned from the game, and the CCP representatives that stood by and let this happen should be sent to the unemployment lines. Because even if you are right and this is someone trying to get attention and free stuff, it does not make the behaviour reported on in this article ok, and these people should be made an example of if CCP wants to take a firm stand against this kind of behaviour.

 

[Danial]

I'm interested in what CCP will do with this CSM. Considering they clearly violated the EVE online terms of service. Specifically 1,2 and 29 and maybe 7 I'm not sure about state/national law on the subject.

EVE online Terms of service:
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp
Revision date: 01-31-2008

I know in the UK this is an offence and you can get time in prison for it, not sure about the US law mind.

 

[Callate]

So I guess that bit at 1:12:06 where the sociopathic drunk in the wizard hat said

"incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is , it's , find him..."

...never happened, according to certain people who we should take to be far more unimpeachable sources than Eurogamer.

Remember: don't believe the hype; believe the mysterious new posters who took a moment away from Eve Online to create accounts on The Escapist to lie to you and insult you.

I won't say that all, or even the majority of Eve Online players are guilty of this kind of behavior. But the atmosphere and rules of that game clearly make behavior that would constitute "abuse" on any other MMO far more common. To the point, indeed, where it's an open question whether the inebriated gentleman in the wizard hat will in fact face any consequences at all for his utterly contemptible behavior.

 

[Sneaklemming]

Yeah it wasn't really an "Eve Panel", its players presenting their guilds.

Here's the video - the thing happens at 1 hour and 1 minute (the video skips for some reason)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Ki91U-mBE

 

[Therumancer]

[q

Apparently they also exist to be complete assholes with no concept of the value of human life. You know, the sort of thing CCP can't do, and if they have anything resembling a conscience, which seems to be the case, wouldn't want anyone doing for them.

Frankly, and I say this understanding full well that perhaps the person in question was pretending to be suicidal, the CSM member responsible for this presentation should be permanently banned from the game, and the CCP representatives that stood by and let this happen should be sent to the unemployment lines. Because even if you are right and this is someone trying to get attention and free stuff, it does not make the behaviour reported on in this article ok, and these people should be made an example of if CCP wants to take a firm stand against this kind of behaviour.

To be honest I think your saying it from someone who has never been in a position of having to deal with the kind of obnoxious personality and grandstanding that can get the attention of an entire server population. I think your wrong and they have very good idea of who they are dealing with, having been dealing with them for quite a while before this point.

No offense but if you start taking every obnoxious emo who talks about suicide seriously and showering them with endless attention you create a destructive cycle. I do not believe anyone really thought his player was suicidal, and by this point, with it reaching that level, I'm sure they had plenty of data.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but the point is that a lot of it comes down to how something happens, not just what happens. Overreacting and treating every claim of "suicidal thoughts" like something special is why people do it, and it's exactly how the whole "an hero" thing got started to both point out the stupidity of suicide, and to clearly label and point out the behavior of those who do this kind of thing to seek attention.

Besides which, people who are genuinely suicidal, rarely go around announcing it to people through an MMO. That's more of a plea for attention. Those who are seriously considering suicide fall under other patterns of behavior and rarely tell people they want to kill themselves straight out.

 

[Samantha Burt]

Okay, why are there about five accounts, all made today, that all seem to be saying the exact same thing?

OT - Well, that's pretty bad. I'm not entirely surprised by the fact that people are saying it, but I'm a bit disturbed that someone with that much power was given a panel, came to it drunk, and proceeded to spew such verbal diarrhea. I tried EVE, once, and could never get into it. Now I'm glad I didn't.

Because there are at least five people that were not registered before that came to comment on the uninformed armchair drivel and wholesale judgmental opining presented by the commenters on this post?

Just because the mittani is a douche does not mean that all tens of thousands of EVE players are, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and reeks of moral high horsing.

And another member of the EVE community coming in for damage control. Welcome!

So, do you guys tell people to kill themselves a lot personally, or is there a vote in the corporation on the matter?

While I love you for calling out the idiots, please do not make such sweeping generalisations about EVE players. Me and my father both enjoy the game, but neither of us would even remotely condone this kind of behaviour; it sickens and appalls me that this sort of thing should even occur.

But please keep putting the rotten apples in their place. It makes me smile.

 

[Jimbo1212]

I love Eve for the brilliant sense of humour everyone has.
You will find that the kid would be some spoilt kid crying because daddy didn't get him enough PLEX that month.

 

[Vivi22]

To be honest I think your saying it from someone who has never been in a position of having to deal with the kind of obnoxious personality and grandstanding that can get the attention of an entire server population. I think your wrong and they have very good idea of who they are dealing with, having been dealing with them for quite a while before this point.

Show me what proof you have that the guy is just an obnoxious asshole and not serious. Because if you got that from the article then you're full of it.

No offense but if you start taking every obnoxious emo who talks about suicide seriously and showering them with endless attention you create a destructive cycle. I do not believe anyone really thought his player was suicidal, and by this point, with it reaching that level, I'm sure they had plenty of data.

I never suggested showering someone saying they're thinking about suicide with attention. I suggested not harassing them to try and get them to do it. Big difference. Don't put words in my mouth please.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but the point is that a lot of it comes down to how something happens, not just what happens. Overreacting and treating every claim of "suicidal thoughts" like something special is why people do it, and it's exactly how the whole "an hero" thing got started to both point out the stupidity of suicide, and to clearly label and point out the behavior of those who do this kind of thing to seek attention.

Point is, they can't know for sure. Maybe they are saying it to get attention. Maybe they're also serious. To treat it as a joke is idiotic. They could easily just ignore the person if they choose. Listen to them if they want to, or point them towards resources for dealing with suicidal thoughts and depression. You seem to be completely missing the point that there are innumerable ways to deal with this that don't involve trying to get someone to kill themselves, and I am utterly flabbergasted by the fact that you are actually sitting there defending such behaviour.

Besides which, people who are genuinely suicidal, rarely go around announcing it to people through an MMO. That's more of a plea for attention. Those who are seriously considering suicide fall under other patterns of behavior and rarely tell people they want to kill themselves straight out.

The article specifically mentions it was private communication. Perhaps they considered the person they talked to a friend. Maybe they're more comfortable talking about such a sensitive issue in the anonymity of the internet rather than with friends in the real world that they feel may judge them or treat them like they're crazy. Again, even if it was simply a plea for attention, nothing in the article indicates that, and some layperson in an online game is not qualified to diagnose someone. To treat it as a joke is horrendous, when they're are at least other ways to deal with it that don't actively encourage someone to do it.

As for people who considering suicide not telling people flat out, bullshit. Some will never talk to someone for whatever reason, but many do. But what do I know? I've only considered suicide in the past, know others who have, and presently volunteer for a suicide helpline. I guess I imagined every instance I've ever encountered of someone reaching out to help, even to perfect strangers.

Again, I fail to see how you can sit there and defend behaviour which is utterly indefensible.

 

[Reaper69lol]

This, is exactly why I hate people. Not saying that everyone is like that, but the majority that I have unfortunately encountered were like that. Having to suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts myself this whole situation disgusts me. Why would anyone openly mock someone yet alone encourage others to bully that person is beyond me. Not only I feel bad for the victim, I also feel bad for the Eve Online community that arent like that, because now people will associate the community with assholes who have minimal human functions and social-skills.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

This is what happens when your neverending game promotes playing like an asshole and extending that into real life. I can understand condoning unconventional tactics in game, I do it all the time in strategy games, but I cannot condone when the tactics leave the game and go into real life.

 

[octafish]

I can't say I'm incredibly surprised at the "LOLEVE" comments already posted. However, I spent a lot of time in EVE with a small corporation - most EVE players do indeed take their game very seriously and tend to be a bit trollish, but this is beyond the pale even for them. Overall they're mostly good folks, just kind of clannish due to the nature of the game. One of my corpmates paid my subscription for a few months and I turned around and returned the favor when I had money and someone else didn't. It's rare that I feel a sense of community like I did in EVE.

Of course that didn't extend to people NOT in our corp... frozen corpses up for auction, anybody?

Too true, I've had a subscription paid for me too, and that was so I could be a spotter/raider for a pirate band that hit fat traders/miners. I was actually recruited to do that outside of the game, given a modestly armed frigate and sent out to find targets, for successful jobs I was awarded upgrades but I was not actually part of the economy.

EveOnline is cut-throat ruthless capitalism at its most basic and bloody, but like Omar Little says it's all in the game.

What happened here is NOT in the game, and while the guys who paid for my subscription were cruel two-faced ruthless bastards online, not one of them would have turned their back on an actual human being in trouble, in fact one was an ambulance paramedic and two were secondary school teachers (the kind that care).

 

[Sonic Doctor]

I don't doubt this happening. The community is quite ruthless, heck the game actually teaches people and in some cases encourages people to become ruthless pirate scum. So don't travel to unsecured space unless you want to have your ship and character's life held for ransom by player pirates. Happened to me, I couldn't pay the insane 50 million isk survival bribe. So they destroyed my ship and my life pod, luckily I had a purchased a good sized clone, or I would have had to start learning all of my skills from scratch.

In WoW if you get killed in enemy territory, you just re-spawn fine with nothing lost. In EVE, it means you can loose months worth of in game work and skill learning that can only be got back by doing the work and learning all over again.

Hell if I played EVE Online I'd be depressed to.
But those panel members are scum.

Yes it is quite a depressing game, depressingly slow because it basically like playing at real life plays. It can take days just to learn one skill, and you can only set one skill at a time to be learned, the longest I've seen is 20 days to learn on skill, though I have heard of some that took 30 days.

Heck, back when I was in college, I set my ship on autopilot to go to a system where there was a station that had an item I needed. I then went to class, and when I got back two hours later, my ship hadn't reach the destination yet; when it did, and I picked up the item, I had to make the journey all the way back so I could finish the run. So, on went the autopilot and I settled in to watch a movie.

I know that people can buy a subscription using in game currency, but that can only be done buy players that give practically all their free time to the game. I like the premise of the game, but it is so slow to do or accomplish everything that it isn't worth my time and the steep typical 15 dollar a month fee.

 

[Rednog]

While I think this is slightly blown out of proportion after watching the youtube video, I do think their actions are pretty deplorable. But considering the actions of players against each other that we see pop up in the news every so often it seems(at least as far as I can tell) to be the modus operandi between EVE players in general.
This kind of saddens me since this company is behind the World of Darkness MMO and I honestly would avoid it if a majority of the players come from the EVE community. MMO players can be douchebags but I don't feel like dealing with the super strain of douchebags that come from the EVE cesspool.

 

[smallharmlesskitten]

Hi Kids.

It's been blown out of proportion. You're all bandwagoning worse than the muppets on the official forums. He's apologised.

Deal with it

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Score one for the "technology is slowly but surely dehumanizing us" crowd.