Evil = Jackass

[MisterShine]

I didn't play the evil guy in ME1 simply because there was no evil guy - just a douchebag who made jackass comments in every conversation. When it came to conversation at least, the 'evil' option in ME1 was shallow.

The way I saw it, Mass Effect wasn't so much good/evil as it was sane/not so much

It was idealism and cooperation versus "I'm a bloody spectre, now get the hell out of my way and let me do my job before I boot your ass out of the way". Rarely does the Renegade engage in petty cruelty, usually it's just a disregard for everything that isn't directly related to completing the mission, namely in this case to save the galaxy. If you were kind of a jerk, but literally the entire galaxy was dependent on you getting the job done, would you react well when people tried to give you menial tasks in order to proceed?

Bioware has always done an excellent job with their morality systems. In Baldur's Gate doing mean things made people more mean to you, but also afraid of you, making it easier to bluff your way out of things. In KOTOR, it was straight up Black and White Good v. Evil, because that is the way that Star Wars always portrays Light Side and Dark Side (And Obsidian had sooooo much fun turning this on its head in the sequal). In Jade Empire*, it was very similar to Mass Effect with Open Fist/Closed Fist. Open is about generosity and helping those in need, the Closed Fist is about everyone needing to build and wield their own strength, otherwise they will never become stronger. The game makes it very clear that the Closed Fist isn't necessarily about being an asshole just because you can, but to force other people to become stronger by facing their own battles and not having you do it. Mass Effect borrows heavily from this, but for Renegade it becomes all about getting the job done as quickly as possible.

Then Dragon Age just tosses the whole thing out the window. I still haven't decided how I feel about that. At least in a game like Alpha Protocol, where there is no 'morality' system, at least consequences for all your actions can be felt later on. Not so much in DA, sadly.

So I guess my main point is that I like morality systems, especially when they're done right and given some depth, or fit the universe in which they are set. It adds a lot to replay value at least


edit:*

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Most of your critiques of an evil lifestyle in games could be adapted to real life. You get sent to prison, no family, no friends, everyone keeps comparing you to Hitler, you have to go on reality shows, the people on The View discuss what a jerk you are...

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

I agree. Alot of games out there ask that you simply take the asshole-route to every single situation in order to become evil. There is no subtlty or finesse to it. No deception, nothing. it can grown quite boring sometimes.

 

[Gindil]

Huh, I've always found that evil tends to reward more. You get money for killing people, generally more powerful weapons, you don't need to worry about saving stupid squishies, and you don't have to worry about running over some jackass and having the town chase after you, as you've already burned the town to the ground.

We can't really call that evil...

Let's look at Jade Empire. The guy trained you to fight in his way and left ONE opening in the katas to which you had no defense. Not only was that an extremely dickish move but it flowed into a saying that I thought about when it happened:

"I may have taught you everything you know, but I have not taught you everything that I know."

I could only stare in disbelief at the plotting and planning that went into this.

Now me, on the other hand, could not pull off that same type of dickish maneuver in the same game. Great that I get more destructive weapons and all but damn... I want to subtly tell a girl that the monster behind her is real. I want her to turn and see a cohort and be able to extort them for X amount of money. I want to have my henchmen run around the world doing my bidding and when the police show up, I was never where they said I was because I have an evil imposter as I sit down to dinner with one of my three wives (the other two she doesn't know)

As it stands in games, it's much more difficult to program, true, but it's not impossible. I hate that every last game out right now has me playing some degree of Chaotic Stupid rather than Chaotic Evil.

 

[Rarhnor]

Moral choice systems just seem broken. The choices you get are 'sane' (good) and 'comicbook-evil' (mean). If you're not gonna do something properly, then don't do it at ALL. Besides, Mass Effect is nothing without it's paragon/renegade actions, that affect the dialog. If Bioware didn't spend it's time wondering: "How can we implement the moral choice system in THIS game?", and instead: "How do we improve the combat, and explorable?".

What if I want to act insane but with good intentions? Like making insertions on the villains neck for him to be paralyzed, so i can watch him squirm, on behalf of all the people he killed...

Well, the reason they don't need to focus on the combat or exploration is that they've already got that down to an art

Bioware is FAR from perfecting the 'art' of combat (especially regarding ME and DA:O). Of course they need to improve it. Also, taking the exploration considered? ME2's planet-scan, more linear levels...they improved the sequel by cutting down on the fun of exploring. If it wasn't for the interesting story, I would've gone played Gears of War, instead.

. Also, because that's still torture, and pretty evil. It's paying evil onto evil. It's like The Boss shooting Dane Vogel in the face at the end of Saints Row 2. He did it purely out of spite, greed and hate, but the guy was an evil businessman causing countless deaths. However, it's still evil.

Exactly! The point i was making, was that it was in good intentions. Vengeful goodness, retribution, but you can't present yourself as an anti-hero, or a bad guy with moral issues. There's a million things you could do in the different situations, but you're always given 3 options. The moral choice system comes off very shallow, which leads me back to my first point:"If you're not gonna do something properly, then don't do it at ALL".

 

[-Drifter-]

Most of your critiques of an evil lifestyle in games could be adapted to real life. You get sent to prison, no family, no friends, everyone keeps comparing you to Hitler, you have to go on reality shows, the people on The View discuss what a jerk you are...

Not all evil people go to jail. It's quite possible to be an asshole within the limits of the law.

 

[octafish]

Look I like the "morality" system of ME, though I hesitate to call it that. Why do i like it? It helped drive the story. You could be a nice straight-shooting helpful Spectre or you could be a dickwad Spectre, but either way you were a Spectre and the choices fitted right into the story. Even if you were a dick, Shepard was always going to get the job done. If you are evil in Fallout 3, why would you bother looking for dad? This isn't a complaint about morality systems but how they fit into the structure of the plot.

Usually I have difficulty playing the darker/evil characters because the quests don't make sense, I usually know instinctively what to do to complete a good quest, I'm usually lost with an evil one. Should I rescue the child and demand a reward? Should I just blow the quest giver off? Should I just kill everyone? Should I find the child, then pickpocket him? Feed him to wolves?

CRPGs are just a bit frustrating when you want to actually role-play a character that the developers didn't account for.

 

[inFAMOUSCowZ]

i love playing evil/ jack ass characters like renegade shepard, or evil falloout 3