Evil = Jackass

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-Drifter-

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I have a tendency in games to lean towards good. Not neccesarily because I care about the people I'm helping, because that's rarely the case. Most games fail to convince me that their NPC's are anything more than a bunch of robots (and stupid ones at that) so I usually don't care whether they live or die. No, the reason I'm usually enclined to go with the good/neutral morality is because the path of evil is so often littered with plenty of idiocy and pointlessness.

Evil characters in RPG's tend to be more Cobra Commander than Cy Tolliver.



[small]And who would you rather be? Some jerk-off in a fetish outfit who kicks puppies, or Powers Boothe?[/small]​

You don't get hirelings to covertly take care of the competition, threaten people into doing your dirty work, or secrety cause strife for your own benefit. No, more often than not it just revolves around you slaughtering people, usually for no better reason than general dickishness. It's rarely the easier choice, and even when it is it's only incrementally so. Really, it's not so much evil as it is just plain crazy. And this is my main problem. Lack of subtlety aside, there's really just no benefit for being an asshole. The good guy's usually get better stuff, and don't have to deal with people spitting on them/running away and screaming in terror.

For example, in Red Dead Redemption, if you're good you get a cool looking duster, the adoration of the people, and a cross that makes enemies less likely to hit you. If you're evil, you get a scarred, beaten up black horse that comes when you whistle, and most likely a large bounty on your head. If you're corrupt/evil in Fable 2, everyone hates you, the opposite sex find you unatractive (most likely due to the horns, green eyes and big, ugly, orange scars and warts that cover your body) and the best thing you're likely to get for your efforts is a crappy sword.



[small]Not pictured: worthwhile rewards, good looks, sex[/small]​

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there needs to be more games in which you can take a more productive, less stupid approach to evil, rather than being some cartoonish villain who kills people for the hell of it, and where there's actually some legitimate reason/reward for doing so. This would also give some meaning to good in games. After all, a true good guy does well not because it's easy or because he expects some sort of reward out of it, but because it's what's right.

Now, I realize that good and evil are nothing more than concepts, and that everyone's sense of morality is different, but I'm assuming that most people here have at least a fairly similar moral compass.



[small]On an unrelated note, here's a regular compass.[/small]​

I'd rather not get into any sort of discussion over the finer points/philosophies of right and wrong (at least, not today.)
 

Cody211282

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That's the big problem with most moral point systems in games, hell games like Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age have it down better just because they ditched the slider and used an influence system.

Also If there was a way to play a bad guy who was subtle I would love it, sadly most games think evil=crazy guy twitching.
 

Sol_HSA

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Nov 25, 2008
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Cody211282 said:
Also If there was a way to play a bad guy who was subtle I would love it, sadly most games think evil=crazy guy twitching.
Then play about any adventure game. Generally, the protagonist is an outsider who, when people aren't watching, picks up every darn thing that's not nailed in, messes up everyone's day, blows things up, all to "save the day" that most likely didn't need to be saved in the first place..
 

ultrachicken

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I've seen the opposite case of who gets the cooler stuff in the games I've played recently. In Dragon Age, if you act evil you can get money or items from people. In Mass Effect, playing as an evil guy makes most fights easier due to some evil action you took earlier. In inFamous, I found the evil powers to be much better than the good ones.

In Fable 2 I was evil and got an entire town's supply of women to join me in bed. I don't know what you're talking about.

I do think that crazy=/=evil, and few games realize that.
 

peterwolfe

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Aug 2, 2008
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This is why I like the ethics/morality spectrums from DnD. Video games which don't use it tend to fall into the problems of the OP-namely, evil people are just assholes. Not that you can't be an evil asshole in DnD, but there are other, much more subtle options.
 

Der Kommissar

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Dec 29, 2009
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Quite verily... the portrayal of evil is extremely shallow everywhere around. Perhaps it is of fear of morality or age ratings on the developer's half, I do not know.

A problem which touches the subject is when in a series of games, multiple endings are presented with the evil one being completely non-canon; effectively making the evil route pointless to play through, very much so if it indeed is as shallow as often is.

I've been informed that some games actually do have more than meets the eye when it comes to being purely malign, wicked and detrimental. Planescape: Torment seems to have some options in this regard although I've yet to see such for myself.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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I think more games need to focus on greed, selfishness, and reckless self-advancement/self-preservation. These are the traits that comprise meaningful and threatening evil in the real world. The batshit crazy psychology that most games define as evil? That stuff is scary and offensive, to be sure, but it doesn't represent a legitimate threat to a great many people. The sociopaths who become serial killers are obviously more gruesome, but they're honestly not capable of doling out the same amount of aggregate suffering as an international arms dealer or a wildly disrespectful corporation.
 

Kavonde

Usually Neutral Good
Feb 8, 2010
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Knights of the Old Republic 2 had a much better way of handling evil. There were still occasional Evil = Jackass moments, but it also let you be more subtle about your Dark Sideyness than most games. Debating your evil actions with Atris and winning made me cackle quite Sidiously, not to mention convincing your companions to become Dark Jedi. (The dialogue where you convince Atton to go evil is freaking brilliant.)

Just a pity they didn't finish it :p
 

More Fun To Compute

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I don't like the whole idea of black and white morality or even shades of grey. Characters have their own influences and motivations. Sometimes they might cross some line that they can't come back from like killing somebody. Morality systems in games just enable "good" characters to drop corpses and fuck people over all the time while pretending that they are the good guys because they worship Boris the god of kittens or whatever. Whose main life goal is to become evil because the clothes are better and you get an extra +1 on your sword? It's not especially meaningful.

Everyone seems to know that the way these good and evil systems are done is shallow and silly but are not prepared to admit that the problem is that the basic concept is silly. What if they can't be fixed because they show up how flawed simplistic moralising is as game settings and situations get more complex?
 

Rarhnor

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The moral choice system is a mistake all together. It doesn't work successfully as a mechanic that compliments the progress of the game. Thus, it shouldn't even be implemented.

I liked it better when you were just told: "You are good, go save the world, and on the way be betrayed by one of your partners".
 

Audio

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From what i remember from playing Jedi Academy online, most people like to be Sith. Death Grip and the lightning is just cool. What do the goodie jedi get? sheilds and healing...pffft :)

I try to do bad stuff in games but I dont actually like what i'm doing. I know they're not actually going to mind but i somehow feel that they do anyway xD. Same as doing good deeds i suppose, they're not going to be greatful but it makes me feel better :p

In Black & White I do bad stuff fairly often, such as feeding my humans to my beastie and throwing useless old people over my wall *bwahaha*. I liked the look of my wolf when he is evil but what actually annoys me is the little cloud of stink that floats around him. Ok my little 'charlie' likes to throw rocks at houses and see how far he can kick sheep but why does being evil mean he has to smell? :|. I ended up teaching my wolf to be nice and helpful but he was no fun anymore. All he wanted to do was harvest trees and dance :'(

All that time I spent on teaching him the art of war...and he became a dancer! *sob* my only son! *rage*
 

manaman

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Cody211282 said:
That's the big problem with most moral point systems in games, hell games like Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age have it down better just because they ditched the slider and used an influence system.

Also If there was a way to play a bad guy who was subtle I would love it, sadly most games think evil=crazy guy twitching.
The more DnD based games usually follow the alignment system pretty well allowing you to be a lawful evil character. It seems the addition of this other Lawful - Chaotic axis does wonders for choosing how your character develops.
 

Lazy Kitty

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May 1, 2009
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-Drifter- said:
If you're corrupt/evil in Fable 2, everyone hates you, the opposite sex find you unatractive (most likely due to the horns, green eyes and big, ugly, orange scars and warts that cover your body) and the best thing you're likely to get for your efforts is a crappy sword.
The unattractiveness has nothing to do with the being evil part, it's completely because of corruptness.
Also you can be completely corrupted and evil and still have everyone in Albion (except those who don't fall for your gender) worship you to no end by wearing the right outfit.

I agree that the kinds of evil one can do in games is way too limited.
It's pretty much alway you doing someone else's dirty work and rarely the other way around.
Still, that doesn't stop me from playing the evil one.
 

Cody211282

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manaman said:
Cody211282 said:
That's the big problem with most moral point systems in games, hell games like Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age have it down better just because they ditched the slider and used an influence system.

Also If there was a way to play a bad guy who was subtle I would love it, sadly most games think evil=crazy guy twitching.
The more DnD based games usually follow the alignment system pretty well allowing you to be a lawful evil character. It seems the addition of this other Lawful - Chaotic axis does wonders for choosing how your character develops.
I did always like how that worked for Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights(and of course playing D&D) it's just to bad more games don't use it, because as much as it isn't perfect it's a hell of a lot better then what is being used now. And I think mixing that with a influence system would be amazing.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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I enjoy being a jackass in games. I say we need more games where you're locked into being evil.
 

tlozoot

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I didn't play the evil guy in ME1 simply because there was no evil guy - just a douchebag who made jackass comments in every conversation. When it came to conversation at least, the 'evil' option in ME1 was shallow.
 

Ironic Pirate

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Huh, I've always found that evil tends to reward more. You get money for killing people, generally more powerful weapons, you don't need to worry about saving stupid squishies, and you don't have to worry about running over some jackass and having the town chase after you, as you've already burned the town to the ground.
 

Rarhnor

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HG131 said:
Why? Are you truly saying Mass Effect and Fallout would be better without morality? And if you really are saying that, are you insane?
Moral choice systems just seem broken. The choices you get are 'sane' (good) and 'comicbook-evil' (mean). If you're not gonna do something properly, then don't do it at ALL. Besides, Mass Effect is nothing without it's paragon/renegade actions, that affect the dialog. If Bioware didn't spend it's time wondering: "How can we implement the moral choice system in THIS game?", instead of: "How do we improve the combat, and explorable?".

What if I want to act insane but with good intentions? Like making insertions on the villains neck for him to be paralyzed, so i can watch him squirm, on behalf of all the people he killed...
 

-Drifter-

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tlozoot said:
I didn't play the evil guy in ME1 simply because there was no evil guy - just a douchebag who made jackass comments in every conversation. When it came to conversation at least, the 'evil' option in ME1 was shallow.
The way I saw it, Mass Effect wasn't so much good/evil as it was sane/not so much