Extending Miracle Control to Standard
- Thread starter Encaen
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I know that deck would get slaughtered around here. One of the big standard things here is a mostly U/G lockdown style control, using Frost Titan and Tamiyo to limit what an opponent can do after ramping with green. I've seen variants without ramp, mostly R/U and B/U that can get pretty nasty too. Being able to reliably cast Miracles isn't something that seems to be common around here, at least not in standard.
This is definitely tons of fun to play! Basically every draw step is life-or-death, and it's generally just exciting to Miracle things. [mtg_card=Thunderous Wrath] will probably come out of my final version, though, as that is the least exciting Miracle draw in the deck unless someone is dangerously close to activating an ultimate. Definitely let me know what changes you make if you do run with it!Draconalis said:
Ouch. Yeah, definitely. This is designed to combat a creature-focused meta, so Control decks are going to give it fits. Since half of the spells are completely blanked by Control, it's going to be a hard fight however you look at it. [mtg_card=Entreat the Angels] still seems pretty favorable, though, but I expect a transformational Sideboard, a la Alexander Hayne, is going to be the best way to fight the Control match.vxicepickxv said:
It's actually pretty funny, I've been [mtg_card=Ponder]ing assembling a UG ramp-control deck featuring Tamiyo and [mtg_card=Frost Titan]s for a couple of weeks. I figured it would be fun, though I wouldn't have expected it to dominate like that. I'm still looking for the best configuration, but right now I'm leaning towards [mtg_card=Somberwald Sage] to enable turn 3 Titans, plus [mtg_card=Acidic Slime] and [mtg_card=Deadeye Navigator] for hilarity. It probably won't be the most competitive deck, but I really want to do evil things courtesy of Navigator.
It does look like a lot of fun. I wonder if maybe [mtg_card=Vessel of Endless Rest], [mtg_card=Otherworld Atlas], or [mtg_card=Conjurer's Closet] might be of use in a deck like this. The Vessel should let you recycle killed or discarded [mtg_card=Snapcaster Mage]s back into the deck or eliminate a nasty from your opponent's gravyard, while providing some slight mana acceleration (and, if you play them in order, not having to pay 2 life for [mtg_card=Noxious Revival]). The Closet lets you blink Snapcaster so you can Flashback another spell during your end step. The Atlas is a handy drawing tool, and forces your opponent to draw as well. I've used it during my opponents' turn to muck up their own Miracle strategies and as a pseudo-mill.
It may be worth looking at [mtg_card=Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] as well. She's got some lovely control potential in her +1, and her ulti (if you can fire it off) is lovely for multi-draw and heavy spell strategies. Speaking of Planeswalkers, [mtg_card=Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded] is another handy fella (aside from being the only two-mana Planeswalker), especially in combination with the Atlas and Tamiyo, and his Ulti clears the way for your attack. Also, are [mtg_card=Koth of the Hammer] and [mtg_card=Venser, the Sojourner] still legal in Standard? Koth may be useful for some extra mana, and Venser's blink ability and ulti are very useful, if a little slow.
It may be worth looking at [mtg_card=Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] as well. She's got some lovely control potential in her +1, and her ulti (if you can fire it off) is lovely for multi-draw and heavy spell strategies. Speaking of Planeswalkers, [mtg_card=Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded] is another handy fella (aside from being the only two-mana Planeswalker), especially in combination with the Atlas and Tamiyo, and his Ulti clears the way for your attack. Also, are [mtg_card=Koth of the Hammer] and [mtg_card=Venser, the Sojourner] still legal in Standard? Koth may be useful for some extra mana, and Venser's blink ability and ulti are very useful, if a little slow.
I'm not sure about [mtg_card=Conjurer's Closet] here, since the only synergy is with Snapcaster, but [mtg_card=Vessel of Endless Rest] seems like a good way to fix mana and ramp into bigger miracles. [mtg_card=Otherworld Atlas] is going to get broken at some point, but I'm not sure this is the right place to do so. I'd hate to be refueling my opponent's hands when I just [mtg_card=Terminus]'d all their critters. I still love the Atlas in any strategy that's looking to mill, though, especially when they can benefit from the card draw, like Esper Control, perhaps, with [mtg_card=Nephalia Drownyard] as a win-condition?2xDouble said:
[mtg_card=Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] should almost certainly be in there somewhere, but I wanted to focus more on the Miracle theme, and I was worried she would upstage the mechanic. I like [mtg_card=Koth of the Hammer], except that his mana ability depends on me having Mountains out and I only run a handful in the deck. His double-red cost is going to be kind of tricky to pull off, too, just like [mtg_card=Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded].
For [mtg_card=Venser, the Sojourner], I'm considering including him as well, though I would definitely want to include some more things to Flicker with him, like [mtg_card=Stonehorn Dignitary] and [mtg_card=Ichor Wellspring]. My only concern here is that his ability is sorcery-speed, so I can't abuse miracles with any resulting card draw. That probably won't stop me from trying it, though! I envision a UW shell with the Venser/Stonehorn lock and Wellsprings.
Looks like a fun deck. Dumb ammounts of expensive though, especially considering it looks like it's about midpower.
Edit: Yup, it's over $300. Not the most expensive standard deck I've seen, but definitly up there.
Edit: Yup, it's over $300. Not the most expensive standard deck I've seen, but definitly up there.
Since you are running in red, are you sporting any [mtg_card=Slagstorm]s? The red sweepers are the only real reason I can see keeping red, and since this deck is going to be hurting a little when Scars rotates with the loss of [mtg_card=Noxious Revival], there's no reason to not run [mtg_card=Slagstorm] keeping that particular part of standard in mind.Encaen said:
I've reconsidered by stand on how fun this deck would be though. It's top decking and top deck manipulation... the manipulation is one thing... but I think this deck might actually be stressful to play.
Miracle is a new mechanic, and I'm not clear on some nuances of it. What all counts as "card draw" and what counts as "first" Does your opening hand count as drawing cards for the purpose of Miracles? Is it only the very first card from the opening draw? If your going 2nd, does your hand get drawn on your turn? Is card draw limited to from the library to your hand? Do return to hand or search the library affects count as card draw?
Your opening had doesn't count as card draw, but even if it did, you wouldn't have the mana to cast the spells. Same with the 2nd player, whom does draw, but wouldn't have mana to cast the spell. The moment the card hits your hand, you can't cast it for its miracle cost, and you have to go into main phase 1 before you can drop a land.SpamNEggs said:
If you had an upkeep drawing of a card which took place before your draw step, that would be the first card you drew that turn. Likewise, if you have a draw ability/spell you can activate on your opponents turn, that is the first card you've drawn that turn.
Lastly, tutors and return to hand do not count as draws.
The one I'm curious about is looter effects, where you draw and discard. If you loot to draw a card, and it's a miracle, from what I understand, you have to finish by discarding before you can cast anything. With no cards in hand, it pretty much reads as "Mill yourself by 1 card" (which is why I think that devil planeswalker sucks. I'm not a huge fan of looter effects, but add to it that his looter effect discards at random... sucks.) but if you do have another card in hand, can you still pay its miracle cost after you've discarded? It hit your hand, so I think not.
Random question: If you are controlling a creature temporarily "until end of turn" and flicker it with [mtg_card=Conjurer's Closet], do you get to keep it? if not, would that work with a temporary-control Aura (or [mtg_card=Soul Seizer]) instead? (i.e. the creature is under your control, becomes not under your control while exiled, then returns under your control thanks to the Closet's effect).
OT: this deck could also be a use for [mtg_card=Arcane Melee], assuming that it basically gives you two free mana toward X costs, and reduce the costs of non-Miracled spells and Snapcaster casts. I think [mtg_card=Stolen Goods] may be handy here as well, though I feel it's too expensive for what it does (unless you hit a vein of Land in your opponent's deck, or a really powerful creature/spell with it). Obligatory mention of [mtg_card=Crippling Chill], it's a great card in control/miracle decks, and [mtg_card=Spectral Prison], though that may be significantly less useful. The uber Miracle though, if you can get a few of them without going broke, is [mtg_card=Temporal Mastery]. I'm not sure if it's legal in current Standard, but [mtg_card=Wall of Denial] seems like a great idea as well. I know the Alara block isn't included, but the wall was reprinted in Commander and a new Duel Deck, so... maybe.
If one might feel like skewing a little farther toward Red, might I suggest: [mtg_card=Reforge the Soul], [mtg_card=Dangerous Wager], [mtg_card=Demolish], and to a lesser extent [mtg_card=Dual Casting]. Reforge can refresh your spell-happy (and probably empty) hand, while hopefully catching some of your opponent's cards in-hand, but it's risky. Dangerous Wager is basically "draw two cards" with an empty hand. Demolish is softer control, but it has its uses. Dual Casting requires a creature in play, but copies any of your Miracles for a single Red. That includes values of X, netting you twice as many angels from [mtg_card=Entreat the Angels], or doubling up your [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] damage.
Additional obligatory mentions: [mtg_card=Gisela, Blade of Goldnight], though she doesn't really fit the theme, and [mtg_card=Bruna, Light of Alabaster], though I don't know how prevalent Auras are in the Standard meta.
OT: this deck could also be a use for [mtg_card=Arcane Melee], assuming that it basically gives you two free mana toward X costs, and reduce the costs of non-Miracled spells and Snapcaster casts. I think [mtg_card=Stolen Goods] may be handy here as well, though I feel it's too expensive for what it does (unless you hit a vein of Land in your opponent's deck, or a really powerful creature/spell with it). Obligatory mention of [mtg_card=Crippling Chill], it's a great card in control/miracle decks, and [mtg_card=Spectral Prison], though that may be significantly less useful. The uber Miracle though, if you can get a few of them without going broke, is [mtg_card=Temporal Mastery]. I'm not sure if it's legal in current Standard, but [mtg_card=Wall of Denial] seems like a great idea as well. I know the Alara block isn't included, but the wall was reprinted in Commander and a new Duel Deck, so... maybe.
If one might feel like skewing a little farther toward Red, might I suggest: [mtg_card=Reforge the Soul], [mtg_card=Dangerous Wager], [mtg_card=Demolish], and to a lesser extent [mtg_card=Dual Casting]. Reforge can refresh your spell-happy (and probably empty) hand, while hopefully catching some of your opponent's cards in-hand, but it's risky. Dangerous Wager is basically "draw two cards" with an empty hand. Demolish is softer control, but it has its uses. Dual Casting requires a creature in play, but copies any of your Miracles for a single Red. That includes values of X, netting you twice as many angels from [mtg_card=Entreat the Angels], or doubling up your [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] damage.
Additional obligatory mentions: [mtg_card=Gisela, Blade of Goldnight], though she doesn't really fit the theme, and [mtg_card=Bruna, Light of Alabaster], though I don't know how prevalent Auras are in the Standard meta.
I'm going to try to figure out how to play with Deadeye Navigator and [mtg_card=Evil Twin] just to see what kind of amusement I can get in a casual multiplayer.Encaen said:This is definitely tons of fun to play! Basically every draw step is life-or-death, and it's generally just exciting to Miracle things. [mtg_card=Thunderous Wrath] will probably come out of my final version, though, as that is the least exciting Miracle draw in the deck unless someone is dangerously close to activating an ultimate. Definitely let me know what changes you make if you do run with it!Draconalis said:
Ouch. Yeah, definitely. This is designed to combat a creature-focused meta, so Control decks are going to give it fits. Since half of the spells are completely blanked by Control, it's going to be a hard fight however you look at it. [mtg_card=Entreat the Angels] still seems pretty favorable, though, but I expect a transformational Sideboard, a la Alexander Hayne, is going to be the best way to fight the Control match.vxicepickxv said:
It's actually pretty funny, I've been [mtg_card=Ponder]ing assembling a UG ramp-control deck featuring Tamiyo and [mtg_card=Frost Titan]s for a couple of weeks. I figured it would be fun, though I wouldn't have expected it to dominate like that. I'm still looking for the best configuration, but right now I'm leaning towards [mtg_card=Somberwald Sage] to enable turn 3 Titans, plus [mtg_card=Acidic Slime] and [mtg_card=Deadeye Navigator] for hilarity. It probably won't be the most competitive deck, but I really want to do evil things courtesy of Navigator.
0.o2xDouble said:
...I think so. Mind you, I'm not a judge or anything, but I think that would be the case. When the creature becomes exiled, it becomes a different creature so the previous effects wear off. It's how things like [mtg_card=Momentary blink] work to protect creatures. It counts as a new creature when it comes back into play.
Mind you, something like [mtg_card=Homeward Path] would still return the creature to the original controller, but otherwise you've stolen yourself a brand spanking new creature!
No, you look at the card before it physically touches your hand as part of the draw mechanics. Once it does, there's no way to be sure it's the card you just drew.SpamNEggs said:
I'd actually recommend going to 4 [mtg_card=Thunderous Wrath]. Doing so will give yourself some more spot control, as well as potentially doing enough damage to kill them if the angels don't get online through sparkcaster shinanegans
Conjurer's Closet specifically says your control. You could probably also use [mtg_card=Nephalia Smuggler] to do the same thing.Zen Toombs said:
Yes. You check the most recent control effect (which is Conjurer's Closet) and that one takes effect. The previous one doesn't apply, of course, because of the changing of zones, but that's not really relevant. Conjurer's Closet applies a -new- control effect which has no end to its duration.vxicepickxv said:
Yeah, between Snapcaster, Entreat, and Bonfire this a pretty expensive proposition. Of course, this is more of a showcase of Miracles than a strictly competitive deck (though it does hold its own!), so I wouldn't really advise buying a bunch of singles to assemble it, unless you're playing for fun (which this most certainly is) or looking to use those cards to construct something more refined for the diverse Standard metagame. I'm more and more convinced that UW is the right way to go with this, getting rid of the looting effects and Revivals for more proactive control elements. Also, Tamiyo.Zen Toombs said:
You are correct! In the 2-Headed Giant sealed tournament I was in recently, this actually came up and almost cost us the game. They had [mtg_card=Conjurer's Closet] in play and [mtg_card=Zealous Conscripts]'d one of our big creatures. If we didn't have [mtg_card=Natural End] in hand and mana up to cast it, we probably would have gone down pretty shortly thereafter. Basically, as has been mentioned, the creature that you flicker becomes a new object on the battlefield, so the "until end of turn" control effect is no longer applying to it, rather the "under your control" effect from the Closet itself. Similarly, if you flicker a creature enchanted by [mtg_card=Soul Seizer]/[mtg_card=Ghastly Haunting], the enchantment will go to the graveyard, and you'll get permanent control of the creature on its return to the battlefield.2xDouble said:
As I understand it, looting with miracles works something like this...Draconalis said:
Loot effect causes you to draw some number of cards. If the first card drawn is the first card you drew this turn, and it is a miracle, you may reveal it (and keep it revealed until further notice) in this case, Miracle's triggered ability triggers but does not go on the stack. you must finish resolving the Loot effect, keeping the miracle revealed. Once the loot effect has resolved completely, you put the Miracle trigger on the stack. Priority passes, and it resolves. If you discarded the Miracle, then the triggered ability will resolve and do nothing, since the card has changed zones. If you kept the Miracle, but don't want to cast it, then you may stop revealing it when the ability resolves. Otherwise, cast away!