Extra Credits talks about gender sterotypes in game mechanics.

[Erttheking]

I have the most horrible feeling that things are gonna explode because the word "gender" is in this thread title. Please everyone, prove me wrong.

So, extra credits talked about how there's stereotypes in mechanics in gaming. Like "Only boys play first person shooters" or "Only girls play puzzle games" and while they does talk about how ultra violent war games will most likely sell better to a male audience, there's a stereotype that all first person shooters have to BE ultra violent war shooters, and how that's hurting the genre and preventing us from experimenting with other types of FPSs to get games like Portal, and how the idea that hidden object games are only for women prevents the implementing of ideas like the pretty kickass zombie apocalypse survival idea they have at the end of the video.


The main strength of the video is that it talks about stereotypes of both genders and while there's nothing wrong with being comfortable inside a stereotype, there's harm in letting those stereotypes dominate our viewpoint. Overall, I think it's a very thoughtful episode, and completely worth a watch.

 

[Evonisia]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Erttheking]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

This War of mine? It had a similar concept.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

This War of mine? It had a similar concept.

It reminded me of state of decay had a similar concept too. Only, you know, with different mechanics.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

I notice someone else (youtube comments) mentioning that portal wasn't a FPS and I am thinking why isn't it? I mean it's based around solving puzzles, but a good FPS is a puzzle too. (Often a bloody puzzle filled with death, but then again so is portal. )

 

[Barbas]

That's no member of the AK family, artist, you wacky whale penis!

I used to be very surprised when girls told me they enjoyed Halo. I'd assumed they just didn't enjoy games like that because it didn't click with their minds in the way that you'd find yourself connecting with a certain book or film genre. How silly, it almost made me rather exclusionary toward them and we had so much more in common than I'd thought.

 

[Evonisia]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

I notice someone else (youtube comments) mentioning that portal wasn't a FPS and I am thinking why isn't it? I mean it's based around solving puzzles, but a good FPS is a puzzle too. (Often a bloody puzzle filled with death, but then again so is portal. )

Technically it is, but I call it a stretch because it's got much more of a puzzle focus than a shooter focus, and I think it was marketed more so on the puzzle aspect than the shooter aspect of the game. Seems like his example is one of a hybrid game rather than a "typical" shooter that gathered female appeal.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

I notice someone else (youtube comments) mentioning that portal wasn't a FPS and I am thinking why isn't it? I mean it's based around solving puzzles, but a good FPS is a puzzle too. (Often a bloody puzzle filled with death, but then again so is portal. )

Technically it is, but I call it a stretch because it's got much more of a puzzle focus than a shooter focus, and I think it was marketed more so on the puzzle aspect than the shooter aspect of the game. Seems like his example is one of a hybrid game rather than a "typical" shooter that gathered female appeal.

Shooting is a puzzle is something I was kind of poking at. You see this a lot in something like half life 2. It has a lot of slow gravity gun puzzle bouts, but even the more frantic gun battles have that same element of feeding bad guys to the barnacles. They play as puzzles to figure out, only faster.

Maybe another way to phrase it is the shooting isn't the mechanic. It's the context on top of the mechanic.

 

[Remus]

I have the most horrible feeling that things are gonna explode because the word "gender" is in this thread title. Please everyone, prove me wrong.

It likely wouldn't explode because you mentioned gender, but because it's Extra Credits, who left the Escapist under less than amicable terms. I will not mention my side on the matter, as this does not have anything to do with the actual video.

On the video content, people like what people like. When game companies try to cater to one specific demographic rather than simply making a game they themselves would play, they're pigeonholing their product. So while more features can lead to a bloated game, it is often necessary to widen the appeal. With the right idea, the right game can appeal to any audience. Why hinder yourself by trying to sell a product to males ages 18-39?

 

[MysticSlayer]

Besides stretching the examples with Portal, yeah they've got a good point. Gosh darn does that game idea at the end seem familiar, but I'm not sure what it is.

I notice someone else (youtube comments) mentioning that portal wasn't a FPS and I am thinking why isn't it? I mean it's based around solving puzzles, but a good FPS is a puzzle too. (Often a bloody puzzle filled with death, but then again so is portal. )

Technically it is, but I call it a stretch because it's got much more of a puzzle focus than a shooter focus, and I think it was marketed more so on the puzzle aspect than the shooter aspect of the game. Seems like his example is one of a hybrid game rather than a "typical" shooter that gathered female appeal.

Well, the closest comparison as a puzzle game would be first-person puzzlers, which I think you can definitely lump Portal into. However, not all first-person puzzle games give you a gun and tell you to shoot at something, which is something Portal has in common with traditional FPS games. The thing is, it gave an interesting twist to both ideas. This is also basically what their zombie game at the end did: It took hidden object mechanics but it gave a twist to be more like a survival game, similar to how Portal is technically an FPS game that is designed to feel more like a puzzle game.

Anyways, really enjoyed the video, but that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who's read some of my comments in other threads. Granted, it was nice to see a more mechanics-focused take on the gender stereotyping that goes on, rather than just dealing with storytelling problems. Hopefully, keeping the focus on advancing the medium, not just the problem, will help avoid some the nastier discussions that surround a certain someone's videos.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

 

[Erttheking]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

I...am completely lost. I can't watch the video again right now, what are you talking about?

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

I...am completely lost. I can't watch the video again right now, what are you talking about?

How they say that gender stereotyping is an issue (which it is), then go on to imply that to make a game's mechanics appeal to the opposite gender they must either make it more non-violent (Portal, Kingdom Hearts) or more violent (Puzzle Quest, James' Zombie idea).

EDIT: Oh, and calling Portal a first person shooter in the vain of CoD is like calling Dear Esther a platformer.

 

[Erttheking]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

I...am completely lost. I can't watch the video again right now, what are you talking about?

How they say that gender stereotyping is an issue (which it is), then go on to imply that to make a game's mechanics appeal to the opposite gender they must either make it more non-violent (Portal, Kingdom Hearts) or more violent (Puzzle Quest, James' Zombie idea).

I think that the thing that they were talking about was that we shouldn't be limited. That we shouldn't say "First Person shooters are only for guys and they all need to be violent" and "puzzles are only for women and need to be nice." Kingdom Hearts and Portal managed to appeal to both genders because it mixed and matched ideas and didn't stick to the stereotypes of one genre. I think the point of the episode was that we shouldn't stick to one extreme or the other and try and explore the in-between areas.

Also there's a lot of fighting in Kingdom Hearts.

EDIT: Well there's first person shooting in Portal. There really isn't platforming in Dear Esther

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

And to be more accurate I was calling it a FPS in the vain of half life 2. CoD dose play a lot differently being mostly a reflex test. The division of genres for video games is kind of subjective. Not really based on mechanics or theme, but kind of a mixture of the two.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

I...am completely lost. I can't watch the video again right now, what are you talking about?

How they say that gender stereotyping is an issue (which it is), then go on to imply that to make a game's mechanics appeal to the opposite gender they must either make it more non-violent (Portal, Kingdom Hearts) or more violent (Puzzle Quest, James' Zombie idea).

I think that the thing that they were talking about was that we shouldn't be limited. That we shouldn't say "First Person shooters are only for guys and they all need to be violent" and "puzzles are only for women and need to be nice." Kingdom Hearts and Portal managed to appeal to both genders because it mixed and matched ideas and didn't stick to the stereotypes of one genre. I think the point of the episode was that we shouldn't stick to one extreme or the other and try and explore the in-between areas.

Also there's a lot of fighting in Kingdom Hearts.

EDIT: Well there's first person shooting in Portal. There really isn't platforming in Dear Esther

He could have had that point, but really Extra Credits rarely ever makes a well laid out, concise conclusion, instea dopting to focus on the entire issue along with often-times useless 'anecdotes' from the 'industry expert' James (who's top credit is being the CEO of a no-name indie studio). They should have focused on why women are attracted to games like Kingdom Hearts and Portal and how we can make more games like that without falling into gender stereotyping, which the zombie puzzle game failed at doing because it answered'add zombies, a post apocalypse and violence' when asked 'how do we make block puzzles appeal to men?'

And about Kingdom Hearts, it wasn't the genre that made it appeal to women, it was the themes. What differentiates Kingdom Hearts from your Monster Hunters or your Witchers is that it was very much an anime-themed game with Disney nostalgia.

 

[The Lunatic]

Essentially, the idea video seemed to go about the notion that the gameplay elements are what makes a game to appeal to people, rather than the theme.

Which is impossible.

The majority of people buying a game do not know exactly how the game will play out.

Admittedly, you have a good notion of genre, but, if you look at the advertising and promotion of a game, far more time is spent telling you the theme of the game rather than the moment to moment gameplay.

The video starts with listing exceptions to the rules, and then goes on about how these rules are apparently so concrete and need changing. It seems to fail to grasp the concept of popularity.

It could be argued that match-3 are popular amongst women because there are more women mobile and casual gamers and some of the most popular games to come up in this form of gaming was Candy-Crush and Bejeweled, as the limited hardware of these systems only allowed for rather more simple games.

Simply put, the reason FPSs don't sell so well to women may just be because more women play casual games and an FPS does not work well on a mobile device.

Rather than considering these possibilities the video instead insists that somehow, if we started doing things their way, market trends would dramatically reverse.

Basically, it's just more pretentious non-sense from a group of people who's only real achievement is one of them working at a game company for a few years.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Excellent points made in the video. I never knew that hidden objects games were made for women, even though I like them; I got into them because they reminded me a lot of I-Spy, which was one of my favorite childhood memories. Indeed, as others have pointed out, that hidden object zombie apocalypse idea is a lot like This War of Mine.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I would say men are more into violent games than women same way as men are not the target audience of Barbie games - though there is over lap. A game developer can only make a game aimed at the audience its for. I grew up gaming with 2 sisters and they prefer more lighter games. If you look at Mario there is violence as you are killing enemies but its not the same as say CoD. Now i would agree for a female character for female gamers if its applicable to the game.

It would be like saying, oh look, some men like My Little Pony. I guess we should start making MLP episodes which are aimed at grown men to gain more mature male viewers.