Fallout 3: I'm getting old

Gildedtongue

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J'aen said:
Besides, who says it's going to be identical to Oblivion anyway? If Valve did a Halo game for some reason, would you automatically assume it would be full of puzzles, crowbars, and cyborgs? Or would you actually give them a chance to do things differently before condemning them based on what they've done in the past?
Basing future actions off of past events, I think that's called being empirical. Besides, I don't think they'll make Fallout 3 with their IHRA racing game development team. I mean, hell, most of Bioware's games have the same sort of story and flow attached to them, no matter where it's placed. Granted, the story works and there is enough unique in it that makes them each special, but you can easily point out a Bioware plotline out of a suspect lineup.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I think a healthy scoop of cynicism will be appropriate.
 

J'aen

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So you're just assuming that everything in the press releases is unrelated to the final game?

For fuck's sake, man, it's not like Peter Molyneux is involved.
 

KurtNiisan

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J'aen said:
So you're just assuming that everything in the press releases is unrelated to the final game?

For fuck's sake, man, it's not like Peter Molyneux is involved.
Don't get me started on Fable 2..
 

Woe Is You

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J'aen said:
You still explore a nuclear wasteland, fight mutants, and save your vault, right?
I'm guessing you haven't played the games.

Like it's been said here, it's not the story we're worried about. Fallout and its sequel especially were all about the oddball methods of playing the game. Created a character that's dumb as rocks? The game changed accordingly with special dialgoue written for that. Want to play a pacifist? That's cool, you can do that. Want to be a drug addict in the game? That's all fine, you can do that too. Want to shoot someone in the nuts with a laser gun? You can do that too! Add ridiculous amounts of hidden secrets and jokes that you will never find on your first playthrough and you have Fallout. Choices ...but also consequences.

Now, seeing Bethesda's track record with their games, they seem to equate freedom with is "loads of land to explore". It doesn't matter if all the quests consist of 2 types: fedexing and killing someone. And what we've seen from the material sort of confirms this with the main emphasis being on the VATS and mini nuke launchers. I think we have all the reasons to be worried about it being Oblivion with guns, since nothing they've shown really has given any reason to suspect it won't.
 

GloatingSwine

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Seriously, this whining is small beans for a Fallout fantard. I've seen someone seriously argue that the game was obviously going to be shit because the shoulder pads looked wrong on the power armour in the first teaser.

Seriously. Fallout fans are that anal. They don't want a new game, they want Fallout 2 again. Not even with graphical updates, because those would be heresy as well...
 

J'aen

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...You're making that up. You've got to be. I knew No Mutants Allowed were stupid bellends, but is the Fallout Fandumb that bad?
 

PurpleRain

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GloatingSwine said:
Seriously, this whining is small beans for a Fallout fantard. I've seen someone seriously argue that the game was obviously going to be shit because the shoulder pads looked wrong on the power armour in the first teaser.
But they were!

It's not the subtle differences, I personally think the new Super Mutants look awesome. We just don't want to be let down. We want a game that evolves around your character not the other way around. Although, some fans are a bit scary the way they carry on.

J'aen said:
And you change your argument every time I reply to a post. Does that make you a Troll as well? Because the definition keeps changing.
*Sigh*
I have one view that hasn't changed. I want to be blown away, but Bethesda hasn't proved that yet with their past games. I just want to play Fallout not Elder Scrolls with guns. I was trying to explain points on why Fallout is different to ES.
 

Ultrajoe

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elder scrolls with guns is fine with me.

What? sometimes as i mace the face of some ace from O-space...

It gets me a thinking?
Instead of spells of shrinking,
Perhaps a little gun
Would prove much more fun
And RPG into old M.D
and a mobile S.A.M
For Camoran?

Oh bithces dont be boned
Id still pack those weykling stones
but as well as my staff, id carry a S.A.W
And blow away deadra
With my precious M.A.W.S

Yeah, i got nothing after that, and that was pretty shit to start with.
 

Blayze

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Bethesda have said the levelling is halfway between Oblivion and traditional RPG. Some enemies level with you, but some stay the same throughout the game.
Hopefully they'll actually implement a *normal* levelling system this time around, rather than the piece of shit that was Oblivion's. Let me put it this way: If a mod comes out for a game and it completely changes the way characters level, then that levelling system failed. What made them think players wanted to have to micromanage every single skill/stat gain, anyway?

I don't want enemies that level with me, anyway. That defeats the *point* of levelling. Let's hope they don't upgrade their gear based on their level, either.

And as for freedom? There was always a hell of a lot of land to explore in Fallout. The only difference was that you never actually cared about the areas that weren't actual locations. You simply time-accelerated your way past the pointless areas and went to the bits of the map that had some actual content for you to enjoy.
 

Logan Westbrook

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Feb 21, 2008
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Blayze said:
Bethesda have said the levelling is halfway between Oblivion and traditional RPG. Some enemies level with you, but some stay the same throughout the game.
Hopefully they'll actually implement a *normal* levelling system this time around, rather than the piece of shit that was Oblivion's. Let me put it this way: If a mod comes out for a game and it completely changes the way characters level, then that levelling system failed. What made them think players wanted to have to micromanage every single skill/stat gain, anyway?

I don't want enemies that level with me, anyway. That defeats the *point* of levelling. Let's hope they don't upgrade their gear based on their level, either.

And as for freedom? There was always a hell of a lot of land to explore in Fallout. The only difference was that you never actually cared about the areas that weren't actual locations. You simply time-accelerated your way past the pointless areas and went to the bits of the map that had some actual content for you to enjoy.
While I agree with you on the issue of enemies levelling with you, I'm confused about your comments on the levelling system in Oblivion. I don't recall having to micro-manage anything when I levelled up. I remember choosing some stats to increase when I levelled up, but that's about it.

What the levelling system in the Elder Scrolls game does is give you the option to level up by playing they way you want to play. I think that's a good way of doing it personally.
 

ReepNeep

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J'aen said:
Go read an press release. ANY AT ALL. They just proved you wrong.
http://www.critical-hits.com/2007/07/01/fallout-3-developer-q-a-with-the-press-part-2/
Q: Will there be unkillable NPCs?
A: There will be some, but they expressed sadness at this, and said they are putting as few unkillables as they possibly can.

Read: Every one of the main plotline NPCs will be invulnerable, and probably several others. This is the antithesis of Fallout.

"The game it's closest to is Oblivion. So now when someone asks, 'Is it Oblivion with guns?' my main answer is, 'in all the best ways.'"
Todd Howard, Lead Designer Executive Producer, Fallout 3
Interview in Offical Xbox Magazine, April 2008
So, yes. This is just a really big Fallout mod for ES4.

J'aen said:
...You're making that up. You've got to be. I knew No Mutants Allowed were stupid bellends, but is the Fallout Fandumb that bad?
Some of them are. Just like any community, you get your really crazy ones. I think the real issue is that foolish people tend to be louder than the realistic ones. They pick on the weirdest stuff, stuff that doesn't really matter, and act like typical hypocritical retarded fanboys. The mods, Brother None in particular, are pretty level-headed and the members run the gamut from frothing-at-the-mouth loonies to more realistic guys who view the game as a spin off rather than an actual sequel.

The fact that allot of people don't like the ES series, and 4 in particular does not help their cause here. Fallout and Oblivion, while they may seem superficially similar in a gameplay sense, are very different games. Oblivion has as much in common with Diablo as it does with a serious RPG like Fallout. Fallout's designer's stated intention was to replicate the experience of PNP roleplaying in a videogame format. Oblivion and to a lesser extent, Morrowind, strikes me as the product of a team that said to themselves: "Halo is popular, so let's make our game more like Halo." It really isn't much more than an FPS with stats and fetch quests.

Their biggest mistake was tacking that 3 on the end of the title. If they called it ES5: After the Bomb, the Fallout fans would have taken it much better.
 

lokust2001

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Whenever i see people getting annoyed about a new game in a series seeming too different to the old ones i always have the same answer.

Just play the old ones again,

If they are everything you love about the series then you're all set.
And for newcomers and people who are up for the change then the new ones all good for them.
 

GloatingSwine

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nilcypher said:
While I agree with you on the issue of enemies levelling with you, I'm confused about your comments on the levelling system in Oblivion. I don't recall having to micro-manage anything when I levelled up. I remember choosing some stats to increase when I levelled up, but that's about it.
Yeah, but you're obviously not a minmaxing nerd. Minmaxing nerds do all sorts of silly and unnecessary things with Oblivion (and other Elder Scrolls) levelling.

Oblivion and to a lesser extent, Morrowind, strikes me as the product of a team that said to themselves: "Halo is popular, so let's make our game more like Halo." It really isn't much more than an FPS with stats and fetch quests.
Really, what they did was say "Right, Daggerfall has some good ideas in it, but we left a lot of useless crap in there, so let's cut that out and focus more on world development".
 

J'aen

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How exactly are Morrowind and Oblivion like Halo? I see no recharging health bars, no pitched shootouts, no pink needles of doom...
 

ReepNeep

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J'aen said:
How exactly are Morrowind and Oblivion like Halo? I see no recharging health bars, no pitched shootouts, no pink needles of doom...
Real time, twitch based combat from a first person perspective. Morrowind is less so because some actions are still determined by dice rolling. All the quests are strictly linear with the only real choices you have in their completion being which gun you want to use and how much time you spend exploring the map.

If you don't think it played like an FPS with stats (which I generally don't have a problem with), I'm going to have to question whether you've actually played a serious RPG before.
 

end_boss

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I just watched the gameplay trailer now, and here are my thoughts as a huge fan of the original games.

Stylistically, I prefer isometric view for RPGs, and I would have preferred to see Fallout 3 take on a more Neverwinter Nights style engine if they wanted to make it real-time. But this is not the deal-breaker for me. I'm going to have to see how it turns out before I pass judgment. But really, history has shown that I enjoy isometric over first-person. Yes, I enjoyed Halo, and Future Perfect, and GoldenEye, and Perfect Dark, and I'm sure there are other FPS games out there I haven't played yet and will enjoy if I do. Even throw in Wolfenstein 3D, Doom 1 and 2, and Duke Nukem 3D. Those were great, awesome games, but they're not among my favourites of all time, the way that games like X-Com, Crusader, and Syndicate are. I think it goes back to my point-and-click adventure roots, that it's just what I'm comfortable with. I don't hate Bethesda for making the choice to go first-person, it's just not my thing.

The demo said that it was going to play it action-oriented, but said there will be stealth and dialogue alternatives to handling situations. The VATS system is interesting and I'll have to wait to see how it pans out. It's just a real-time equivalent of the aimed shot we've seen in previous games, so this, in itself, is not a huge worry until I see how it works first-hand.

I stopped playing Morrowind because I got tired of putting weights on the up button and doing other things while waiting until I reached the next town. Fallout and Fallout 2 spared us this with their map system. I hope Bethesda gives us some helpful options.

So, to sum up everything up until now, I would have personally enjoyed it if the game stuck more closely to the originals, but I understand that change can sometimes be good, and we're just going to have to see how a lot of the gameplay mechanics play out before we either compliment or complain. Some people say that Fallout wasn't about the gameplay mechanic, it was about the world and the humour. I agree to an extent; the world and the humour set it apart from other games, but Fallout 1 and 2 were just total packages, and every aspect of the game came together in an amazing way (except for a few concerns about the turn-based combat, like watching old men verrrry slowwwwly walk a few squares per turn, dragging down the pacing).

No, the big concern for me, that I see right away, is that they mentioned that, like a lot of modern RPGs, it will boast over 100 hours of gameplay. THIS is the part that hurts me the most, because I *hate* long games. I know a lot of gamers want more and more hours of gameplay, but here's where I start turning old and crotchety, remembering the good ol' days of games.

For me, the best RPGs that I think back on fondly were long enough to provide a satisfying experience, but still short and sweet enough to be concise and well-paced. RPGs like Fallout and Darksun weren't long games. If you wanted, you could finish them within a day. A video on the net shows somebody beating the original Fallout in about 15 minutes, because the story is so open-ended that only two key events are required to complete the game; you don't even have to find the water chip!

No, my favourite games of all time, from Fallout to Darksun to Quest for Glory, are all about the replay value. Once a game hits the 30 hour mark for me, it pretty much writes itself off as a one-time playthrough game. 100+ hours is just ridiculous, and the best part about the aforementioned games are that they give you 100+ hours of gameplay through inspiring you to play them over and over and over again in many different ways. That's what I wanted from a Fallout game. I know that I will be spending 50+ hours of those hundred, walking from one place to another. I know that when I'm done, I'm done. This time, I won't be able to play the game over and over and over again; maybe this time I'll be an asshole, maybe this time I'll play a thief, maybe this time I'll play with a party, maybe this time I'll sell my wife to slavery and go solo. Fallout 3 might give us a lot of options, but I'm not going to get the chance to enjoy them all. For the people out there that have the time to play 100+ hours of gameplay 5 times over, I'm sure you'll enjoy this, and I'm happy for you. But I don't have that kind of time.

But that's the dilemma, isn't it? Fallout has always been about catering to the hardcore gamers, but now they have to ask which hardcore gamers they want to cater to. The classic gamers, or the progressive gamers? The ones who want to play a game over and over, or the ones who complain if a game is "only 24 hours long?" Forget first-person vs isometric viewpoints; this is what the argument should have been in the first place.
 

J'aen

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ReepNeep said:
J'aen said:
How exactly are Morrowind and Oblivion like Halo? I see no recharging health bars, no pitched shootouts, no pink needles of doom...
Real time, twitch based combat from a first person perspective. Morrowind is less so because some actions are still determined by dice rolling. All the quests are strictly linear with the only real choices you have in their completion being which gun you want to use and how much time you spend exploring the map.

If you don't think it played like an FPS with stats (which I generally don't have a problem with), I'm going to have to question whether you've actually played a serious RPG before.
Sure it played like an FPS. On the other hand, a Cow is a Bovine, a Bovine is not a Cow. Just because you play it from a first person perspective doesn't mean it's like Halo.
 

GloatingSwine

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ReepNeep said:
J'aen said:
How exactly are Morrowind and Oblivion like Halo? I see no recharging health bars, no pitched shootouts, no pink needles of doom...
Real time, twitch based combat from a first person perspective. Morrowind is less so because some actions are still determined by dice rolling. All the quests are strictly linear with the only real choices you have in their completion being which gun you want to use and how much time you spend exploring the map.
.
You mean like Daggerfall and Arena then?