Fallout 4 BoS = Enclave Lite?

[dangoball]

So this has been bugging me for a bit. I see a lot of people calling Fallout 4's rendition of Brotherhood of Steel as "Enclave Lite", racist fascist and all that jazz, but here's the thing - I don't see it.

Granted, I'm not that far in the story (haven't visited the Institute yet), but I was never one to shy away from spoiler (destination is the journey), so I know the deal about Danse, Maxons return to form of BoS East and I don't really see them picking up where Enclave left off.

The main argument is their fascist tendencies and a raging hard-on against anything non-human. How is that different from the original Brotherhood?
Those guys were a bunch of asses, sending the Vault Dweller to die in a radioactive ditch and letting him join only because they have some semblance of honour. They also perceived the Master and his army as a threat, mainly due to FEV involvement. Not to mention their extremely rigid hierarchy (well implemented in Fallout NV).
In Fallout 2 they play a minimal role and only provide The Chosen One with some high-end gear (Marcus loves himself some pulse rifle), but only as a payment for Vertibird schematics. And how else would you want to pay a guy/gal clad in Enclave PA, gauss riffle over the shoulder and more caps than one cares to count?
Even Fallout 3 goody-two-shoes Brotherhood of Charity and Love under Lyon only ever talked with ghouls through the morse code of winding up gatling barrels.

As for their stance on non-BoS humans - Enclave considered anyone not their own or fresh out of Vault a mutant and in need of expedient extermination. BoS west considered everyone outside the bunker a retarded monkey able to operate technology the complexity of a BB gun at best.
Maxon's BoS aims to protect the people of Commonwealth (from themselves, yeah, but not by killing them all), and actually accepts outsiders through their sponsorship program.
How silly it is that you do two quests for Danse and Maxon makes you a Knight right of the bat is not the subject of this topic. Though silly it is.

So where are all the Enclave parallels? All I see is somewhat more welcoming and militarily active Brotherhood of Steel than their West counterpart. Tell me what makes BoS East more assholish than Bos West and I don't mind spoiler. Just be sure to put them in spoiler tags for those who do.

Oh BTW I loved the reference to Fallout Tactics when you ask Kells whether BoS ever built other airships.

 

[DefunctTheory]

The difference is pretty much how proactive Maxton's BoS is compared to the BoS of the past. They used to be pretty insular, clashing with the outside only where their interest intersected with the Wasteland at large. Maxton's decided that the entire continental US of A is now the BoS's interest, and their going to control it, one way or another.

During the course of Fallout 4, Maxton is understandably content to deal with the biggest fish in the pond and ignore everything else. I expect that at least one of the upcoming DLC patches is going to be BoS centered, and things are likely to get really Nazi-ish, really fast, if you don't mind the Godwin.

 

[Fappy]

I couldn't side with the BoS all the way to the end unless I was playing an ideologically twisted/evil character. The Nazi/Hitler parallels are way too blatant to see past them for me. It's the same reason I can't side with the Stormcloaks on good characters in Skyrim. They have some good points, but ultimately Ulfric is a fascist, racist, regicider hellbent on destabilizing Skyrim and weakening the Empire. Oh, and if you read his dossier he was put in power by the Thalmor as a means to weaken humanity, so there's that too.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

snip

I've never heard the term "Enclave Lite" used to describe the BoS in Fallout 4, but the more I think about it, the more appropriate it seems.

Keep in mind that the old Brotherhood had zero interest in ruling people. Their first priority was the gathering of Pre-War technology and keeping it out of the hands of those who would misuse it. Everything else was secondary. Remember how in New Vegas, the Mojave Chapter was effectively holed up in their bunker? They fought a war with the NCR over technology (more specifically, Hoover Dam and the Helios One power station), and lost. Their objective wasn't to wipe out ghouls and Super Mutants, it was to gather and hoard technology.

With the death of Elder Lyons, the East Coast Brotherhood had gone from protecting the people in their sphere of influence to basically ruling them with an iron fist. They demanded food and other supplies from settlements in their general area, and seized them if they didn't want to pay up. They also went from the simple hoarding of technology to a holy crusade against non-humans. This seems...awfully fascist to me. The only real difference between them and the Enclave is that instead of killing literally everyone who lived in the Wasteland, they merely wanted to kill anything non-human: synths, ghouls (feral or otherwise), and Super Mutants. Technology is still important, but it seems to have taken a back seat to stomping on non-humans and everyone else who gets in their way.

 

[dangoball]

The difference is pretty much how proactive Maxton's BoS is compared to the BoS of the past. They used to be pretty insular, clashing with the outside only where their interest intersected with the Wasteland at large. Maxton's decided that the entire continental US of A is now the BoS's interest, and their going to control it, one way or another.

During the course of Fallout 4, Maxton is understandably content to deal with the biggest fish in the pond and ignore everything else. I expect that at least one of the upcoming DLC patches is going to be BoS centered, and things are likely to get really Nazi-ish, really fast, if you don't mind the Godwin.

I didn't really get the feeling Maxton is trying to create United Steel States, more like extending BoS sphere of influence and tech gathering efforts due to having their eyes opened by both Enclave and The Institute that there are other technologically superior factions.
I did find the statement that Prydwen houses enough personnel for a full scale military offensive kinda weird when the entirety of BoS was never big enough for that, special ops seem more their parte. Danse even says they don't have the man-power for search-and-rescue missions. And while air superiority is a nice thing to have, last time I checked blips are quite flammable. You don't want your base of command to be quite flammable.

As for the BoS centred DLC, wouldn't that kinda clash with the core game? From what I've gathered
at the end you have to ally with one of the main factions and basically wipe out the other two. Would that kinda throw a spanner in the works for a BoS centric DLC when there's two out of three possibility you wiped the BoS out? Provided Bethesda keeps their promise of open ended gameplay, any DLC bound to the main questline/factions would be difficult to make.

I couldn't side with the BoS all the way to the end unless I was playing an ideologically twisted/evil character. The Nazi/Hitler parallels are way too blatant to see past them for me. It's the same reason I can't side with the Stormcloaks on good characters in Skyrim. They have some good points, but ultimately Ulfric is a fascist, racist, regicider hellbent on destabilizing Skyrim and weakening the Empire. Oh, and if you read his dossier he was put in power by the Thalor as a means to weaken humanity, so there's that too.

Stormcloaks were asses using religious propaganda to cover blatant racism. And Ulfric was a dumb figurehead.

BoS East reminds me more of a post-crisis government than outright Nazi Germany (which was a post-crisis government, granted), but so far I don't see them as evil, though they have you wipe out the Railroad if you side with BoS, rigth? I can't really say that I could do that in good conscience as I also play good characters. I also can't see any logical reason for BoS to do that, as the Railroad hardly poses a threat. On the other hand I've read that all factions have enough grey morality to make them all kinda dickish, Railroad included.

I've never heard the term "Enclave Lite" used to describe the BoS in Fallout 4, but the more I think about it, the more appropriate it seems.

Keep in mind that the old Brotherhood had zero interest in ruling people. Their first priority was the gathering of Pre-War technology and keeping it out of the hands of those who would misuse it. Everything else was secondary. Remember how in New Vegas, the Mojave Chapter was effectively holed up in their bunker? They fought a war with the NCR over technology (more specifically, Hoover Dam and the Helios One power station), and lost. Their objective wasn't to wipe out ghouls and Super Mutants, it was to gather and hoard technology.

With the death of Elder Lyons, the East Coast Brotherhood had gone from protecting the people in their sphere of influence to basically ruling them with an iron fist. They demanded food and other supplies from settlements in their general area, and seized them if they didn't want to pay up. They also went from the simple hoarding of technology to a holy crusade against non-humans. This seems...awfully fascist to me. The only real difference between them and the Enclave is that instead of killing literally everyone who lived in the Wasteland, they merely wanted to kill anything non-human: synths, ghouls (feral or otherwise), and Super Mutants. Technology is still important, but it seems to have taken a back seat to stomping on non-humans and everyone else who gets in their way.

Does BoS East really have such vested interest in ruling the Wasteland? Doesn't seem that way to me, like I said to AccursedTheory I don't see Maxon creating United Steel States. Their intervention in the Commonwealth seems to be driven more by their need for technological dominance - The Institute threat - with the non-human genocide being a cherry on top, and their approach to ruling feels more like "let them rule themselves as long as they stay out of our way". I do agree that the food gathering quests for the quartermaster give your stance quite a bit of credence, though.
But tell me, does BoS political agenda become more apparent later on? Feel free to spoil me with some spoiler tags.

 

[Fappy]

I couldn't side with the BoS all the way to the end unless I was playing an ideologically twisted/evil character. The Nazi/Hitler parallels are way too blatant to see past them for me. It's the same reason I can't side with the Stormcloaks on good characters in Skyrim. They have some good points, but ultimately Ulfric is a fascist, racist, regicider hellbent on destabilizing Skyrim and weakening the Empire. Oh, and if you read his dossier he was put in power by the Thalor as a means to weaken humanity, so there's that too.

Stormcloaks were asses using religious propaganda to cover blatant racism. And Ulfric was a dumb figurehead.

BoS East reminds me more of a post-crisis government than outright Nazi Germany (which was a post-crisis government, granted), but so far I don't see them as evil, though they have you wipe out the Railroad if you side with BoS, rigth? I can't really say that I could do that in good conscience as I also play good characters. I also can't see any logical reason for BoS to do that, as the Railroad hardly poses a threat. On the other hand I've read that all factions have enough grey morality to make them all kinda dickish, Railroad included.

Spoiler

Playing from the Railroad's perspective, they get attacked by the BoS completely out of the blue. Until that point they had little to no interaction at all save for one minor accidental skirmish (if Bunker Hill counts). It probably happened simply because Elder Maxon hates synths and they are helping synths, therefore they have to die.

I don't think the Railroad is nearly as crazy as some people seem to think they are. Sure, they are violent by nature (as are all the factions) but they are fighting for a good cause. If the BoS hadn't attacked them there is no indication they had any plans to directly oppose the BoS. They would have just continued doing what they were doing: saving synths and integrating them into society. Once the Institute was destroyed the BoS would likely assume the synth threat is over and move on.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I didn't really get the feeling Maxton is trying to create United Steel States, more like extending BoS sphere of influence and tech gathering efforts due to having their eyes opened by both Enclave and The Institute that there are other technologically superior factions.

Maxton flat out says they're in the Commonwealth to stay, and that they're going to sort 'things' out, namely the Super Mutants, raiders, all the ghouls, and 'disorder.' He also talks about looting everything, weeding out all the Synths (How fun, a BoS inquisition), and blatantly starts taking whatever the hell they want from the wasteland (Really think that's going to stop with food?).

I did find the statement that Prydwen houses enough personnel for a full scale military offensive kinda weird when the entirety of BoS was never big enough for that, special ops seem more their parte. Danse even says they don't have the man-power for search-and-rescue missions. And while air superiority is a nice thing to have, last time I checked blips are quite flammable. You don't want your base of command to be quite flammable.

The Pyrdwen is pretty much the first hint that the BoS has changed priorities.

As for the BoS centred DLC, wouldn't that kinda clash with the core game? From what I've gathered
at the end you have to ally with one of the main factions and basically wipe out the other two. Would that kinda throw a spanner in the works for a BoS centric DLC when there's two out of three possibility you wiped the BoS out? Provided Bethesda keeps their promise of open ended gameplay, any DLC bound to the main questline/factions would be difficult to make.

They do seem to have painted themselves into a corner. But I'm sure the BoS is going to play a huge role in the coming DLC, one way or another.

they have you wipe out the Railroad if you side with BoS, rigth? I can't really say that I could do that in good conscience as I also play good characters. I also can't see any logical reason for BoS to do that, as the Railroad hardly poses a threat. On the other hand I've read that all factions have enough grey morality to make them all kinda dickish, Railroad included.

Spoiler

Yes, pretty much the first thing you do once you side with the BoS is kill the Railroad. Why? Because they're a wild card, support the Synths, and because Maxton doesn't want any organized forces in the Commonwealth but his.

But tell me, does BoS political agenda become more apparent later on? Feel free to spoil me with some spoiler tags.

Without going into details, yes, it does. As you go along, it becomes more and more apparent that the Institute just made the Commonwealth a convenient place to start the new BoS.

 

[FalloutJack]

Brotherhood of Enclave?

This looks like a job for...well...me!

Putting aside for a moment that the way I run the Enclave in my Wild Wasteland RP is different from the reguler one, there is a significant controvery in regards to the Brotherhood and the Enclave.

To review, we have the pre-Enclave American army, then somewhere in their transition into the Enclave with its purist tendancies and experimenting with the Vaults and such, the Brotherhood breaks off, citing that the Enclave is a bunch of dicks. And, let's just face it, they are. Most of the Vaults are a number of human social experiments, which the BoS naturally did not appreciate. So, they went off and decided they knew the best way to help the Wasteland: Covet all the pre-war technology and hand it out as they see fit when they feel the wasteland is ready for it. Later generations have had a fair disdain for wastelanders because they're backwater idiots by comparison. Since the Brotherhood operates largely on the level of militarized Vault Dwellers, they're trying to save the country and stabilize everything, maybe they even like some of the people, provided the people are savages like Caesar's Legion or too violent like some of the NCR. (See New Vegas for that.)

They mostly kept out of the way, doing things out of the way or with impunity usin their powersuits, but they're not the killers the Enclave are, and they don't have the vertibirds. Well...not until Fallout 3, say. Fallout 3 changed the setup a little. The East Coast Chapter couldn't stand the suffering anymore and took a hands-on approach. Actual guardians of the wasteland, there, proper good guys. Naturally, the West Coast Chapter denounced them as proper, because they believed getting too involved with the wrong people would only cause trouble. Well, yes and no. They DID stop a major Enclave offensive (Core game events and Broken Steel), and I've heard that after-

Spoiler: Interrupt Transmission

Elder Lyons died and Sarah was killed on a mission

-the East Coast BoS started acting more like the rest of their brethren, like their Outcasts group in Fallout 3 was. Kind of sad, really, but the Enclave actively wanted to experiment on and kill everyone...with some exceptions. (The Remnants out in the Mojave are better people.)

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Yeah I would say that the anti-non-human sentiments have been kicked up to a point that they are now on par with what Pres. Eden and his Enclave crew were pushing back in Fallout 3, which makes the Brotherhood kinda less noble to me than the purer intention of keeping technology from the hands of the ignorant stance they'd seemed to represent in previous incarnations.

I still sided with them entirely my first time through the game, and had a lot of Ad Victorium (sp?) moments doing it.

Nevertheless, I did have some moral pains here and there with what I was ordered to do - and the way way too obvious "Do Not Question Orders" as a virtue being a theme throughout really raised some red flags for me.

 

[vallorn]

I see the Eastern Brotherhood slide into "Mutant bad!" as mostly DUE to their recruiting from outside their ranks in the capital wasteland. That place was a sheer warzone between the Vault 87 monstrosities and the BoS there and they recruited people who had watched super mutants drag away and eat/transform/kill for the hell of it their friends, neighbors and relatives. That's going to create a VERY strong anti super mutant bias in the organization. It wouldn't take much for Maxon to tip that into general "All mutants are bad, not just Super mutants" and the Synths fall right between "Rogue technology" (In the BoS's eyes) and "Non-human mutants" so they are doubly screwed.

Spoiler

Hell, even Danse's best friend from the Capital Wasteland got captured and forcibly FEVed forcing him to put the guy down... That kind of thing would result in a lot of messed up people

Also, the Prydwin isn't the BoS's first airship:
- http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Tactics:_Brotherhood_of_Steel

Spoiler: Fallout 4 on the airships of Tactics

Kells > "There were less advanced versions of this ship built on the west coast a long time ago. Historical records about their current status are in dispute, but we're fairly certain that they were destroyed."

They have the technology and know how to build them so, with the resources they gathered by returning to their tech hoarding ways in the Capital Wasteland I don't see how it would have been hard to make 1, really good airship.

Now I wonder why they didn't let Liberty Prime pilot it...

 

[Leoofmoon]

The difference is pretty much how proactive Maxton's BoS is compared to the BoS of the past. They used to be pretty insular, clashing with the outside only where their interest intersected with the Wasteland at large. Maxton's decided that the entire continental US of A is now the BoS's interest, and their going to control it, one way or another.

During the course of Fallout 4, Maxton is understandably content to deal with the biggest fish in the pond and ignore everything else. I expect that at least one of the upcoming DLC patches is going to be BoS centered, and things are likely to get really Nazi-ish, really fast, if you don't mind the Godwin.

For what I notice most of the BOS over the sires the BOS are mostly content to stay quiet and only come out in small groups. This is the first time they have ever come out in force and display the full extent of there power and coming out as a massive army.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

They have some good points, but ultimately Ulfric is a fascist, racist, regicider hellbent on destabilizing Skyrim and weakening the Empire.

You do realize all the "sources" on Ulfric's racism come from... Imperial sympathizers, right?

Christ, 'The Bear of Markarth' the big, grand, trump card Imperial supporters like to say PROVES ULFRIC IS A MANIAC was written by... Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar. Acknowledging authorial bias is one of the most important things in The Elder Scrolls lore, if you genuinely believed Ulfric was a racist you missed the entire point of the Civil War plotline.

Ulfric didn't help out the Gray Quarter? He had a war to fight. A particularly devastating war as it was a Civil War, which means no matter how well you do, you're weakening your own country. He had no resources to give to the Gray Quarter.

If you were to say Ulfric is power-hungry, congratulations you're right. So is everybody in the Civil War questline. The question is, why are they power hungry? He wants power so he can do what his supporters want him to, like politicians in the modern world. His supporters want to succeed from the empire and restore Talos Worship.

Does this look like something someone who doesn't have just cause to fight would say? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_5kBJduIg

"But he's just acting" To an audience of a close friend and one stranger? You serious?

"But he has racist supporters!" Welcome to Tamriel. You really ought to learn about the place while you visit. The racism of Ulfric's supporters is utterly tame compared to pretty much every other instance of racism in the lore.

And Regicider? Let's see what's wrong with this. Torygg wanted rebellion just as much as Ulfric did, but Torygg was weak. The duel was perfectly acceptable according to the legality of Skyrim, the Empire went ahead and decided to interfere after that. A duel is a part of Nordic politics. It's an outdated law? If Torygg agreed to the duel the law is still in place. It was only illegal according to Imperial law.

And facist? Really? The closest thing to Facists in Elder Scrolls V are the Thalmor, who back the empire for the convenience of only having one enemy for the Aldmeri dominion to manipulate.

And as for the Thalmor dossier? Note that he's an "asset" not a "mind-controlled sleeper agent". The Thalmor want war in Skyrim, they don't want a victory either way, they simply the empire to get bogged down in a struggle while they expanded influence, which would have been completely obvious if you'd read the dossier.

And the worst part is there are valid arguments to be made from a pro-imperial standpoint. They all just get bogged down under the Imperial propaganda you took as fact when you picked up the game.

Because it's not like the Elder Scrolls games haven't ever blatantly lied to you an purposefully misinformed you about things in the past, right? (See: The hidden message in the 36 Lessons of Vivec "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this.")

It just shocks me that people could completely miss the point of such a large part of the game. I can practically hear the wind rushing as the point of so many things flies over their heads. It's like watching Star Wars without going "Oh yeah, the force is an important thing."

 

[pookie101]

well the brotherhood didnt exactly have a good reputation with the ghouls in underworld with them saying they tend to lump all the ghouls together and tend to shoot on sight.

as for fallout 4. ive just started working with the brotherhood just like i did in new vegas and if they piss me off ill wipe them out like i did there.

 

[Barbas]

More like the Brotherhood outcasts, I'd say (note the red and black colour scheme), which puts them closer to the original vision of the codex than Lyons's splinter faction in the capital Wasteland. It would appear that at some point in the past, a younger Maxson became disillusioned by what he saw as Elder Lyons's soft touch and, influenced by what records he could unearth about his illustrious ancestors, decided to take the more direct route to glory. They're less isolationist and more warlike than other splinter factions, certainly, but while you can certainly draw parallels in their approach with Enclave, their hatred for mutation of any sort puts them well at odds with them.

That's my take on it, anyway. Also, this one finds Maxson a tool. More like he got those scars from falling off the Citadel wall, the little dweeb.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Fallout 4 Brotherhood is basically the West Coast Brotherhood reborn with massive numbers due to their open recruitment policies. The Lyons' influence didn't last it seems, as both Elder and Sarah Lyons appear to be dead by this time. But now the Brotherhood has a massive army set on invading the Commonwealth to control technology. It's no wonder they're dicks.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

Christ man, way to jump down my throat. Probably the most condescending post someone has directed at me a quite awhile.

We're talking about a fictional video game character here. Simmer down.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

-Snip-

Christ man, way to jump down my throat. Probably the most condescending post someone has directed at me a quite awhile.

We're talking about a fictional video game character here. Simmer down.

To believe all those things about Ulfric you ha to ignore so much about not only Ulfric, but the entire narrative happening in front of you. It's like ignoring the NUKES ARE BAD theme in MGS. I don't know how to explain something to someone who actively ignored so much context without "condescension" (more like pointing out and illustrating a great deal of context you missed).

 

[Zetatrain]

they have you wipe out the Railroad if you side with BoS, rigth? I can't really say that I could do that in good conscience as I also play good characters. I also can't see any logical reason for BoS to do that, as the Railroad hardly poses a threat. On the other hand I've read that all factions have enough grey morality to make them all kinda dickish, Railroad included.

Well think of it this way. The BoS believe that in order to prevent humanity from destroying itself again the BoS must hoard all of the advanced technology and determine how it's used. Synths definitely fall under the advanced technology category and unless Synths (the advanced ones)agree to be enslaved the BoS will see no other option but to annihilate synths and anyone that stands in the BoS's way. The BoS have made it clear they see synths as a threat and while their logic is a bit dubious it fits in with their xenophobic mentality in Fallout 4.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

-Snip-

Christ man, way to jump down my throat. Probably the most condescending post someone has directed at me a quite awhile.

We're talking about a fictional video game character here. Simmer down.

To believe all those things about Ulfric you ha to ignore so much about not only Ulfric, but the entire narrative happening in front of you. It's like ignoring the NUKES ARE BAD theme in MGS. I don't know how to explain something to someone who actively ignored so much context without "condescension" (more like pointing out and illustrating a great deal of context you missed).

I'm with the other lad, you need to chill.

Plus, the biggest argument against the "gray vs gray" of Skyrim is that if you support the Stormcloaks, you end up with a weakened Skyrim and a weakened Empire, both ready to be invaded by the Thalmor (who put Ulfric in charge anyway). If you go Imperial, they all link back up and once the time is right can take on the Thalmor again.

But this is a fallout thread, yo. Chill.

OT:

I feel like they really went out of their way to make all factions gray this time around, but went a little weird with the Brotherhood. You literally walk up to Kells and he goes "Hey, you, DESTROY THE RAILROAD COMPLETELY" and you can't say anything about it at all, nor wonder why they are fighting the same people that fight the institute. The Institute is a very well made faction in the terms of gray areas because it's actually hard to just kill them all, but also hard to forget everyone on the surface and side with them. The Railroad I am half-half on, mainly because as cool as their little resistance is, they are just that. Little. The fact that they have any chance to take on the Brotherhood amazes me.

In the end, I feel like if you have to excuse it in any way, it's that the Brotherhood has brought in a lot of the survivors of the Super Mutants from the Capital Wasteland and as such with Mr Proactive leading them they are willing to smash through anyone non-human to win. I've chosen them mainly because they have by far the best moments in the story, and the coolest locations/gear.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Brotherhood isnt evil, its just neutral. It does what it wants and if you get in the way they show you no mercy. Which puts the brotherhood in the position to be good guys or bad guys.