Fallout 4 critic vs audience reviews for pc port.

[kenu12345]

Just want to point out that the two systems are vastly different so saying that there is no difference is inaccurate. I mean everyone can have their opinions on which one they like thought. I prefer the skill one while felt more diverse and allowed more options

 

[sumanoskae]

"The Skill System is Gone": This is simply not true; the skills have just been fused into the perk system because they were redundant.

Riddle me this: What is the difference between these two mechanics:

A: Increasing a skill that makes you do more damage with guns.

B: Getting a perk that makes you do more damage with guns.

Proper answer: The mechanics are not used properly. If you have two distinct traits, they should represent different things. Pretty basic thing. In D&D 3.X +2 strength and a fighting feat do represent different things and are distinct. If both traits have effects that are indistinguishable, then somebody did a poor job designing the system.

You're going to have to elaborate. The problem you just outlined is exactly what the new Perk system addresses. Gun perks and Gun skills serve the same gameplay function; there is no reason for them to be two distinct traits.

It's a basic design principal - don't make the rules any more complicated than they need to be.

 

[sumanoskae]

Most of the user reviews are pretty incoherent, and I suspect that a fair amount of them haven't played the game for more than an hour or two. Let's address some of the most prevalent complaints.

"The Skill System is Gone": This is simply not true; the skills have just been fused into the perk system because they were redundant.

Riddle me this: What is the difference between these two mechanics:

A: Increasing a skill that makes you do more damage with guns.

B: Getting a perk that makes you do more damage with guns.

The problem here is that B mostly did not exist. Perks tended to be a hell of a lot more interesting and useful than just a little bit more skill points. Things like "eat corpses to heal yourself," "Do 10% more damage against enemies of a particular sex and get unique dialogue options when talking to that sex," "ignore 10 points of enemy armor when using a shotgun."

The closest thing to what you're talking about is the grunt perk, which basically does "+25% damage when using a gun that might reasonably be in Call of Duty," and even then it's not the same as just a boost to your small guns stat because that perk also includes grenades and combat knives too. Same with Gunslinger or Commando (+25% VATS accuracy when using a handgun/rifle, respectively,) because this applies to both rifles/handguns in both the small guns and energy weapons categories.

Also stuff like carrying 50 extra pounds of stuff, the equivalent of 5 extra points into STR just for the purpose of carrying shit.
Or that perk that's supposed to reduce the damage you take from energy weapons if you're wearing shiny armor.

Like I said, a lot cooler and more interesting than just a few more stat points.

And all of that still exists, and since you now get twice the perk points you used to, it's not as though the more unusual perks are harder to acquire.

Hell, the higher levels of the Gun perks even have special abilities now; rifles ignore armor; pistols disarm enemies; automatics have improved hip fire AND stagger; melee weapons hit multiple enemies. The new system has MORE variety, not less.

As for more exotic perks: Cannibal is still present; Aquaboy Rank 2 makes you totally invisible underwater; Chem Resistant makes you immune to addiction; Ghoulish causes radiation to heal you; Ricochet randomly causes enemy gunfire to be redirected back towards the shooter; Nerd Rage now slows down time; Penetrator lets you shoot through cover; Intimidation and Wasteland Whispererer let you gain control of humans and creatures respectively.

 

[Redvenge]

Most of the user reviews are pretty incoherent, and I suspect that a fair amount of them haven't played the game for more than an hour or two. Let's address some of the most prevalent complaints.

"The Skill System is Gone": This is simply not true; the skills have just been fused into the perk system because they were redundant.

Riddle me this: What is the difference between these two mechanics:

A: Increasing a skill that makes you do more damage with guns.

B: Getting a perk that makes you do more damage with guns.

Answer: Nothing! There is no functionality lost here; the systems are only different on a superficial level...

... what?

Removing vestigial systems or streamlining gameplay is not inherently "dumbing down", so I agree with you that removing the skill system is not killing the RPG aspect of a game... if the replacement system is, in fact, an improvement.

The new Perk tree is a very mixed bag. It has interesting new gameplay features. For instance, I have found a fun synergy between Nerd Rage, Ghoulish and the defensive Perks (Toughness/Reflective) can lead to a melee character who is riding the line of dying in exchange for an immense melee boost.

Frustration comes from realizing that, since they married perks and skills, skill advancement is now level gated. If you want to raise your Guns skill to 80, you must be level 28. Raising it to 100 is available at level 42. Since combat is fairly trivial at level 34-ish (which happens in EVERY Bethesda game) I wonder what the point is of level gating the skill increases.

There is also a lot of perk bloat. The system needs 1 perk for every level of SPECIAL. With 7 attributes and 10 levels, that means 70 perks (each perk having 1 to 5 "ranks"). So, to fill out the array, they removed automatic "guns" from the rest of the "guns" and gave them their own perk. Then there are "mind control" perks. Poorly explained and badly implemented, they seem like FO:NV mods turned into perks just to fill out the perk tree.

The modification perks are especially distasteful. There is a different perk for each type of mod (armor, guns, energy weapons, melee weapons) and each perk has 4 ranks. So, if you find a rank 3 armor mod, you need to be level 28 and have 3 ranks in the armor mod perk to use it. Needing a perk for power armor was very controversial; now we have unnecessary perk bloat as well as a perk tax AND a level gate to use equipment. In a single player game.

In addition to that, you must meet the SPECIAL requirements, which further increases the price of SKILL ADDS. In the old system, you could have 1 in Perception and 1 in Intelligence and raise your Lockpicking and Computers skills to 100. Now you need a 4 in Intelligence and a 4 in Perception to gain access to Locksmith and Hacking. This is made worse by having fewer SPECIAL points to start with than other Fallout games.

The new system is a lateral improvement AT BEST. The old system at least gave you more options per level. It was by no means perfect, and I think it could use a lot of work, but it was better than the new perk array.

 

[LetalisK]

In addition to that, you must meet the SPECIAL requirements, which further increases the price of SKILL ADDS. In the old system, you could have 1 in Perception and 1 in Intelligence and raise your Lockpicking and Computers skills to 100.

Using the FO:NV model, it would take you until level 18 to be able to pick/hack everything, assuming a Luck score of 5. Under Fallout 4 rules, you would have all the necessary perk points to pick/hack everything by level 12. Adding in the level requirements picking/hacking everything would be at 21 with 9 perks to burn.

Btw...

The modification perks are especially distasteful. There is a different perk for each type of mod (armor, guns, energy weapons, melee weapons) and each perk has 4 ranks. So, if you find a rank 3 armor mod, you need to be level 28 and have 3 ranks in the armor mod perk to use it. Needing a perk for power armor was very controversial; now we have unnecessary perk bloat as well as a perk tax AND a level gate to use equipment. In a single player game.

...is false. You need the perks to craft the mods, not to use them, nor are they level dependent. By level 14 I had a 10mm and a shotgun both nearly maxed on top tier mods I found on other weapons, but I don't have any of the modding perks. You have reminded me that I completely neglected my armor, though. I'm horrified by the thought of how many good armor mods I inexplicably sold.

 

[DoPo]

You're going to have to elaborate.

I am unsure what you are confused by.

Gun perks and Gun skills serve the same gameplay function;

This is bad design - two different character traits should fulfil two different distinct functions. If they don't

there is no reason for them to be two distinct traits.

this exact thing happens.

It is bad design because

It's a basic design principal - don't make the rules any more complicated than they need to be.

of this, more or less.

As I said, I don't exactly understand where your confusion lies.

 

[Benpasko]

The game is great, but the new dialogue is just as awful as people were worried. The main character simultaneously has enough personality to kill any chance of a self-insert, but is also horribly bland so as to be totally uninteresting. It's an especially nasty contrast since I've been playing Witcher 3, and Gerry is so charismatic.

Also, is it even possible to run out of Power Armor fuel? I keep finding 5 Fusion Cores in random boxes, I'm up to 25 fully charged ones.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

the new dialogue is just as awful as people were worried.

I am hopeful this is one of the first things the modders fix. I doubt they would be able to re-record every line of dialogue, but maybe put in the dialogue options that past games have used.

 

[LetalisK]

Spoiler

You're going to have to elaborate.

I am unsure what you are confused by.

Gun perks and Gun skills serve the same gameplay function;

This is bad design - two different character traits should fulfil two different distinct functions. If they don't

there is no reason for them to be two distinct traits.

this exact thing happens.

It is bad design because

It's a basic design principal - don't make the rules any more complicated than they need to be.

of this, more or less.

As I said, I don't exactly understand where your confusion lies.

I think you misinterpreted what he said or he wasn't clear enough. There is not gun skill AND gun perks in Fallout 4. Fallout 4 doesn't have gun skill and his point was that the new gun perks fill that niche. Kind of like how D&D changes the system from edition to edition.

 

[DoPo]

I think you misinterpreted what he said or he wasn't clear enough. There is not gun skill AND gun perks in Fallout 4. Fallout 4 doesn't have gun skill and his point was that the new gun perks fill that niche. Kind of like how D&D changes the system from edition to edition.

I'm fully aware that the skills and perks were combined into just perks in Fallout 4 - there were multiple people who said that in this thread, this was also included in the post from sumanoskae I initially quoted.

The question was why would you have both when if they do the same thing. I explained that you shouldn't, and why you shouldn't.

What in that is not clear, seriously?

 

[Benpasko]

I think you misinterpreted what he said or he wasn't clear enough. There is not gun skill AND gun perks in Fallout 4. Fallout 4 doesn't have gun skill and his point was that the new gun perks fill that niche. Kind of like how D&D changes the system from edition to edition.

I'm fully aware that the skills and perks were combined into just perks in Fallout 4 - there were multiple people who said that in this thread, this was also included in the post from sumanoskae I initially quoted.

The question was why would you have both when if they do the same thing. I explained that you shouldn't, and why you shouldn't.

What in that is not clear, seriously?

Everything? If I understand correctly, you're saying that fallout 4 shouldn't do the thing it's not doing? I'm not sure if you're critiquing the older fallouts or this new one.

 

[sumanoskae]

As I said, I don't exactly understand where your confusion lies.

I don't understand what your argument is; you essentially responded to my complaint by complaining about the exact same thing. I argued that having both Gun perks and Gun skills was a redundant feature, and then you responded by saying... basically the same thing. So what's your point?

 

[DoPo]

Everything? If I understand correctly, you're saying that fallout 4 shouldn't do the thing it's not doing? I'm not sure if you're critiquing the older fallouts or this new one.

If you have perks and skills do exactly the same, that is bad. Have perks and skills done exactly the same? Is this an actual problem that actually needed addressing?

 

[LetalisK]

I'm fully aware that the skills and perks were combined into just perks in Fallout 4 - there were multiple people who said that in this thread, this was also included in the post from sumanoskae I initially quoted.

The question was why would you have both when if they do the same thing. I explained that you shouldn't, and why you shouldn't.

What in that is not clear, seriously?

The idea that two different games in the same series using two different rulesets is bad design. That would make D&D an abomination unto the Lord.

Everything? If I understand correctly, you're saying that fallout 4 shouldn't do the thing it's not doing? I'm not sure if you're critiquing the older fallouts or this new one.

If you have perks and skills do exactly the same, that is bad. Have perks and skills done exactly the same? Is this an actual problem that actually needed addressing?

The end result of perks and skills are the same(at least in the case of guns as per the example). The way they get there is not.

 

[LetalisK]

(blah! This additional post was not necessary! Sorry.)

 

[sumanoskae]

Yeah, but since skills have been rolled into perks now, you have to have the shitty, boring "20% more damage and accuracy with small guns" as perks instead of just having that just be a natural extension of your skill point distribution. Plus you could limit perk access by skill level too, instead of just a single SPECIAL stat requirement in Fallout 4, requiring a lot more planning and specialization to make a really good build, which you dont need to do in 4 since there's no max level, letting you grind until you have 10s in every stat and have maxed out every perk.

Yeah it's not that big of an issue in the long run, the game has a lot bigger problems from what I hear, but Fallout New Vegas was just had more thought put into it's systems and scenarios and how they play together.

And you get a Perk point EVERY LEVEL, so the existence of damage boost Perks is offset by the abundance of available points; you don't have to pick and choose between an interesting build and a functional one. Lest you forget, Perks like Commando existed back in Fallout 3 too, and they weren't any more complex. Hell, if you modded the game enough to make the gunplay functional, they were useless; all they did was increase weapon accuracy in VATS.

In fact, the selection of available perks between games is pretty similar, with only a few notable additions or absences.

And grinding until you have 10 in every stat is unrealistic at best. You get very little XP from killing low level mobs, which is exactly what you have to do if you plan on going 30+ levels without getting a single perk. You CAN, in theory, get every perk available to you and maximize every stat, but you'll have exhausted almost all of the game's content before you even get close to doing that; as a feature, it's nothing more than an Easter egg, a formality.

Regarding the skill limitations on Perks, I don't see how such an insignificant feature adds any real strategic depth to the game; it's just one more incidental detail you have to plan around. It's not difficult to incorporate it into your designs, so it doesn't create any more mental burden for the player. At worst, the stat and level requirements serve more or less the same purpose.

 

[DoPo]

As I said, I don't exactly understand where your confusion lies.

I don't understand what your argument is; you essentially responded to my complaint by complaining about the exact same thing. I argued that having both Gun perks and Gun skills was a redundant feature, and then you responded by saying... basically the same thing. So what's your point?

Aht the question, as you presented it, showed a badly designed system. This raises the question

Have perks and skills done exactly the same? Is this an actual problem that actually needed addressing?

The idea that two different games in the same series using two different rulesets is bad design.

Am I missing something? When have I ever addressed/claimed/refuted/whatever this idea?

That would make D&D an abomination unto the Lord.

That's putting it more extreme than I would, but either way, I'm fairly sure its design doesn't really need extra help to be bad - it already is. Talking hera bout 3.X and 4e, as those I'm most familiar with.

Everything? If I understand correctly, you're saying that fallout 4 shouldn't do the thing it's not doing? I'm not sure if you're critiquing the older fallouts or this new one.

If you have perks and skills do exactly the same, that is bad. Have perks and skills done exactly the same? Is this an actual problem that actually needed addressing?

The end result of perks and skills are the same(at least in the case of guns as per the example). The way they get there is not.

ELI5, is this a yes, a no, or where in between is it?

 

[sumanoskae]

Removing vestigial systems or streamlining gameplay is not inherently "dumbing down", so I agree with you that removing the skill system is not killing the RPG aspect of a game... if the replacement system is, in fact, an improvement.

The new Perk tree is a very mixed bag. It has interesting new gameplay features. For instance, I have found a fun synergy between Nerd Rage, Ghoulish and the defensive Perks (Toughness/Reflective) can lead to a melee character who is riding the line of dying in exchange for an immense melee boost.

Frustration comes from realizing that, since they married perks and skills, skill advancement is now level gated. If you want to raise your Guns skill to 80, you must be level 28. Raising it to 100 is available at level 42. Since combat is fairly trivial at level 34-ish (which happens in EVERY Bethesda game) I wonder what the point is of level gating the skill increases.

There is also a lot of perk bloat. The system needs 1 perk for every level of SPECIAL. With 7 attributes and 10 levels, that means 70 perks (each perk having 1 to 5 "ranks"). So, to fill out the array, they removed automatic "guns" from the rest of the "guns" and gave them their own perk. Then there are "mind control" perks. Poorly explained and badly implemented, they seem like FO:NV mods turned into perks just to fill out the perk tree.

The modification perks are especially distasteful. There is a different perk for each type of mod (armor, guns, energy weapons, melee weapons) and each perk has 4 ranks. So, if you find a rank 3 armor mod, you need to be level 28 and have 3 ranks in the armor mod perk to use it. Needing a perk for power armor was very controversial; now we have unnecessary perk bloat as well as a perk tax AND a level gate to use equipment. In a single player game.

In addition to that, you must meet the SPECIAL requirements, which further increases the price of SKILL ADDS. In the old system, you could have 1 in Perception and 1 in Intelligence and raise your Lockpicking and Computers skills to 100. Now you need a 4 in Intelligence and a 4 in Perception to gain access to Locksmith and Hacking. This is made worse by having fewer SPECIAL points to start with than other Fallout games.

The new system is a lateral improvement AT BEST. The old system at least gave you more options per level. It was by no means perfect, and I think it could use a lot of work, but it was better than the new perk array.

The level gating is probably here to prevent players from getting to 100 in their guns skill before they hit level 20 and turning combat into an utter formality. I haven't personally gotten to level 34, so I can't speak on whether or not the combat becomes trivial, but by that logic, combat would have only become trivial faster in the previous games.

I don't know how you figure that the old system gave you more options per level. You COULD technically spread your skill points out however you wanted to, but in order to make any significant headway, you had to increase a skill by more than 2 or 3 points. Sure, you CAN increase your Small Guns skill by 1 point, but it will have almost no effect on your character.

Regarding Perk bloat. Most of the "Filler" perks you mentioned are carry overs from previous games, with the exception of the automatic weapons perk. Fallout 3 had just as many phoned in Perks, that did nothing more than reinforce what the skills were already doing. So either they were useless because the Skills gave you all you needed, or they were necessary for an optimal character build, which essentially meant that you had to repurpose your Perk points as skill points if you wanted avoid handicapping your character.