Redvenge said:
Sure. In an ideal single player game, you have a progression system that allows as much creative freedom to build a character as possible. If Bethesda says "nope, sorry. you can't increase your Guns skill further until level 26", then Bethesda is telling me how to build my character. There is no reason to do that in a single player game.
So by that logic the IDEAL way to play Fallout would be to use cheat codes to make your character into whatever you want...?
The issue with the new system is I have less control over my character's advancement. The old system did have level requirements attached to Perks, but not Skills.
So once again, freedom of choice is always the proper design decision, regardless of context. Choice and limitations are defined by each other. A game where you can do literally anything wouldn't be fun for the same reason a story where anything could happen wouldn't be engaging.
Skillbooks and chems don't effect nearly what they used to. Skillbooks (now Perkbooks) give you totally new perks you cannot gain through leveling. If you don't have a base Perception of 4, reached level 7, and spent 2 Perks on Locksmithing, no gear, book or chem will ever help you open that Journeyman lock.
You were JUST complaining about how you have less build variety! Perkbooks do
exactly that; provide you with more options to customize your character. It sounds to me like books and chems used to do the same damn thing; compensate for weaknesses in a build.
So riddle me this; if in the old system you could use chems and books to create a balanced build no matter what perks or skills you had, then why did it even matter what perks and skills you select? Was literally just a matter of which chems you took and when?
How would that create more variety then having a system where your character simply can't do everything?
The fact that you can only improve your skills when Bethesda says you can is a significant change. The fact that you have less build flexibility due to the reduced interaction of temporary skill increases and permanent skill increases is a significant change. Before, you did not need to put 50 points into Lockpicking to open Average locks; you could supplement it with magazines, skill books and chems. You CANNOT do that with the new system. This reflects a LOSS of flexibility.
Bethesda has always controlled when you level up and increase your skills; they built the fucking game! They chose exactly how XP much each quest, enemy, and obstacle you run into yields. Designing a game is designing an experience; it involves control by definition. The goal of Fallout, and open world games in general, is to create the
feeling of freedom and agency, because creating true freedom and agency is impossible. All you can do is define the limitations, and carefully construct those limitations.
In order for exploration and discovery to be fostered, something has to be out there to discover. The WORST PERK in the original Fallout games literally unlocked every area in the game as a fast travel option. Sure, it technically constitutes creating more options for the player, but it totally undermines the core engagement of the game. Letting your player break your leveling system by mastering everything creates the same problem; you can't explore if you've already found everything.
"The things that you find are less important than how you find them" - Egoraptor
sumanoskae said:
Swift Learner's EXP boost is now the base function of Intelligence;
Which is stupid, since xp is infinite in FO4. Before, skill points were finite, since levels were finite. Intelligence had more value (at least, until the level cap went to 50 through DLC).
True, you could just make up for low intelligence by, say, mindlessly wandering through the wasteland killing exclusively mole rats. But nobody is going to do that unless they're a Goddamn masochist. I agree that it's a lackluster mechanic, but I don't think it's useless, since almost nobody is going to force themselves to repeat content ad nauseam just to reach max level when they've already exhausted the games meaningful content.
sumanoskae said:
Intense Training is no longer a perk, just a basic function of leveling up;
When before you could take Intense Training AND boost your Guns skill; now you do one or the other (unless you are not level 9/18/26/42, then you can't increase your Guns skill)
Didn't you bemoan the existence of the Here and Now perk? If doing the same fucking thing you were always going to do at a quicker pace is so vital to the uniqueness of your build, that would be a fine reason to invest in Intelligence.
sumanoskae said:
Fortune Finder is more or less unchanged;
A pity. This one could have been removed too.
That it could have; it's kind of a lame Perk.
sumanoskae said:
...I don't see how you can logically argue that it's somehow more limiting than the old system. Bethesda are not known for their skill in mechanical depth anyways.
I can argue that it is more limiting. Bethesda should not get a free pass when the old system could have been improved on rather than discarded.
Which they did; the whole point I'm making in this debate is that the new system is more or less just a more fine tuned version of the old one.
I'm glad New Vegas got rid of all of those. I agree, they were filler.
Fair point.