Fallout 4 Getting a Game of the Year Edition in September

kenu12345

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Paragon Fury said:
I don't get the hate for FO4's DLC.

You have 3 things primarily dedicated to side-things;

Contraptions
Vault-Tec
Wasteland Workshop


And then 3 Story DLCs;

Automatron - New Faction, Robot Building, Robot Invasion of Commonwealth
Far Harbor - Unravel the mystery of Far Harbor and Nick's Past
Nuka World - Travel the Nuka World amusement park and become it's absolute ruler and wreck the Commonwealth if you want (or bury those Raider asshats and free everyone)

If you bought the Season Pass when it originally came out, you got a goddamn steal. If you bought it later, you basically got 1 Story or two Workshop DLCs free.

And the number of story DLC's is comparable to past titles too - Oblivion had 2, FO3 had 3.5, NV had 3.5, Skyrim had 2 etc. So FO4 having 2.5 Story DLCs is on par with Oblivion and Skyrim, and just behind FO3 and NV. While it doesn't have a Broken Steel, Shivering Isles, Dragonborn, OWB, LR, Far Harbor is easily one better story DLCs, and Nuka-World is still fun.
New Vegas had 4 dlcs that all added items, areas, and stories to the game. I don't get why you put .5 on there
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Major_Tom said:
But fucking around in what is essentially a Developer's Level Editor does not break your immersion?
Fancy coming up with an 'immersive' way to build a nuclear generator? Or remove a concrete foundation? In a game universe where a bar of soap lasts 200yrs in the exact same spot and isn't looted? Thought not.

If my own sense of immersion can tolerate the unavoidable gameyness of, say, being able to soak up bullets (and cure broken legs in one injection), carry an almost entirely invisible arsenal and so on, then it can withstand the conceit that you need to seamlessly go into a build mode and are then allowed to convert accumulated resources into structures and objects. The end result is one of the most expressively engaging and creatively detailed environments I've ever experienced in gaming, which segues perfectly with role-playing.

I'm not sure how it'll transition into TESVI, but I sure as hell hope it does in some form.

Paragon Fury said:
You have 3 things primarily dedicated to side-things;

Contraptions
Vault-Tec
Wasteland Workshop
To be fair those are only worth a single damn if the player engages with the build system, which not everyone wanted to.

And then 3 Story DLCs;

Automatron - New Faction, Robot Building, Robot Invasion of Commonwealth
Far Harbor - Unravel the mystery of Far Harbor and Nick's Past
Nuka World - Travel the Nuka World amusement park and become it's absolute ruler and wreck the Commonwealth if you want (or bury those Raider asshats and free everyone)
I think Fallout 4 became one of their best games, but the DLC was patchy; Automatron's new bot building was nice, but aside from that it was really just one proper [boring] dungeon delve, and then that's it. I don't really count that as a 'story DLC' at all, more of a new feature with a half-arsed justification.

Nuka World was an excellently designed new slice of map, but unless you roll the raider route you barely have any actual story content (and even if you do go a raidin', the tone jars completely with the general characterisation Bethesda give to the Sole Survivor in the Commonwealth or Far Harbour. it's as if they suddenly develop a personality disorder... ).

I'm not saying the game had terrible DLC, but it certainly wasn't for everyone, and it was rather patchy.

Far Harbour was excellent, however (one of Bethesda's best so far), and arguably should've been the standard met by the main game's rushed and sometimes appallingly written MQ. I'm not that big a fan of Nick Valentine, but I did like how they took the opportunity to really expand on a companion character. Fallout 4's followers are a huge step forward for them, and FH's use of Nick was another great example of that. Bodes very well for the next TES.
 

immortalfrieza

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Ftaghn To You Too said:
I managed to snag the full game and all DLC for 20 bucks due to a combination of sales and gifts. Unfortunately, it still wasn't worth it for that price. It's a damn shame that Bethesda continues to drive two classic game franchises, Elder Scrolls and Fallout, into the mud with terrible games.
If by "drive into the mud" you mean improve upon each franchise in literally every way humanly possible with every single entry, then yes. There's a reason their games have been selling more and more with each installment and it's not because they are bad.

Fallout 4 gives us a completely optional Build Mode making loot worthwhile and creating countless roleplay opportunities, voiced protagonists vastly increasing immersion, emotion, and story value of the whole game, much much better gunplay, much smarter enemy AI, threw out the karma system in favor of choices not being so freaking arbitrary, great written characters particularly companions, well built environments etc. Really the only thing they got wrong was Power Armor, both for the fact that it's implementation is very lore breaking and there's no reason to ever actually use it because it destroys the game balance if you do.
 

Dalisclock

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Sentient6 said:
I'm all for Complete Editions, and not to nitpick, but who awarded FO4 a "Game of the Year"? The impression I had that the general consensus was "kinda cool, but disappointing for a "Fallout" game".
I wasn't aware that there was a requirement to meet. I've long since assumed that GOTY was just the new way of saying "The Complete Edition", because marketing is often just Bullshit with Special Effects propping it up.
 

Ftaghn To You Too

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immortalfrieza said:
Ftaghn To You Too said:
I managed to snag the full game and all DLC for 20 bucks due to a combination of sales and gifts. Unfortunately, it still wasn't worth it for that price. It's a damn shame that Bethesda continues to drive two classic game franchises, Elder Scrolls and Fallout, into the mud with terrible games.
If by "drive into the mud" you mean improve upon each franchise in literally every way humanly possible with every single entry, then yes. There's a reason their games have been selling more and more with each installment and it's not because they are bad.

Fallout 4 gives us a completely optional Build Mode making loot worthwhile and creating countless roleplay opportunities, voiced protagonists vastly increasing immersion, emotion, and story value of the whole game, much much better gunplay, much smarter enemy AI, threw out the karma system in favor of choices not being so freaking arbitrary, great written characters particularly companions, well built environments etc. Really the only thing they got wrong was Power Armor, both for the fact that it's implementation is very lore breaking and there's no reason to ever actually use it because it destroys the game balance if you do.
Directly into the mud. Build mode did make trash loot important, which is a pretty good thing, but it also freed Bethesda of the need to make interesting locations. You don't find interesting places and settlements in Fallout 4. You find interesting places to put things. The settlements in Fallout 3 were all terrible, but some of them at least had interesting designs for the thirty seconds before you thought about them and realized they were stupid. Bethesda didn't even need to think that far this time. Town creation would have been good if it were part of a single settlement and the rest of the wasteland were filled with interesting places to go and interesting things to do, rather than serving as an excuse to have a bunch of locations have absolutely nothing.

The voiced protagonists is by far the lowest point. The performances are themselves good, but the requirement to have someone actually read everything written means that the number of dialog options are miniscule. Fallout 3 (to a lesser extent) and New Vegas allowed for more ways to ask questions, more questions to ask, and ways to add interesting twists to dialog like Skill Checks, Perk Checks, and Faction Checks. In 4, there are always four options. Usually four different ways to say yes. If you download the mod that lets you see all of the dialog options in full, you quickly realize that most of them are the same choices anyway. Besides, what if the voice doesn't it? Bethesda already decided that roleplaying was for losers when they preset your backstory as a veteran or a lawyer who minored in Power Armor Usage in college, but allowing you to determine a voice that fits your own character in your mind is way more immersive than having to follow the specific reading that Bethesda decided was right.

The story is absolutely terrible. Every faction is full of idiots who have no logical motives or desires (here's looking at you, Institute). The quests you go on all, with a few noticeable exceptions, boil down to go somewhere and shoot someone with no other options or interactions possible. You're strung along a very specific path with no deviation, like the ability to realize that maybe, just maybe, your kid isn't a baby anymore. What you are strung along is full of logical errors and plot holes, like how Kellogg's Frosted Flakes refers to an old man pulling the strings of the Institute in his memories.

You are totally correct about combat and AI being better. There is no possible way to contest that. Same with the removal of the Karma system, though New Vegas had essentially already done that by making karma not matter. Bethesda continues to be very good at building individual environments with a lot of detail, though almost all of them are just shooting galleries and not places to interact with. It's just a shame that there's no meat. There's no interesting story full of complicated motives and criss-crossing loyalties. There is no player choice. There's no roleplaying in the roleplaying game. It isn't Fallout.

In there is a bitter, angry rant. Click at your own risk.

I know that I'm in the minority here. The flaws I find aren't flaws in the majority of the gaming public's opinions. Fallout 4 is slicker, more well produced, and more appealing to the vast majority of the gamers out there. They like it, it sells well, and they have fun with it. That's good for them. Unfortunately it isn't for me. The things I like, like Fallout: New Vegas, 1, and 2, just aren't popular anymore. I think the reason why I dislike Fallout 4 so much is the same reason I dislike Skyrim so much. It's a franchise I used to love turning away from the things I love. The success of Fallout 4 and Skyrim just means that big budget versions of games like New Vegas and Morrowind just aren't going to be made anymore. I think that's a tragedy.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Neat. Are there going to be decent launch day reviews so we now wha parts are going to be broken out if the gate, or are they sticking with the 24 hour review copies so that the game-breaking bugs will show up unexpectedly?
 

kenu12345

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Ftaghn To You Too said:
immortalfrieza said:
Ftaghn To You Too said:
I managed to snag the full game and all DLC for 20 bucks due to a combination of sales and gifts. Unfortunately, it still wasn't worth it for that price. It's a damn shame that Bethesda continues to drive two classic game franchises, Elder Scrolls and Fallout, into the mud with terrible games.
If by "drive into the mud" you mean improve upon each franchise in literally every way humanly possible with every single entry, then yes. There's a reason their games have been selling more and more with each installment and it's not because they are bad.

Fallout 4 gives us a completely optional Build Mode making loot worthwhile and creating countless roleplay opportunities, voiced protagonists vastly increasing immersion, emotion, and story value of the whole game, much much better gunplay, much smarter enemy AI, threw out the karma system in favor of choices not being so freaking arbitrary, great written characters particularly companions, well built environments etc. Really the only thing they got wrong was Power Armor, both for the fact that it's implementation is very lore breaking and there's no reason to ever actually use it because it destroys the game balance if you do.
Directly into the mud. Build mode did make trash loot important, which is a pretty good thing, but it also freed Bethesda of the need to make interesting locations. You don't find interesting places and settlements in Fallout 4. You find interesting places to put things. The settlements in Fallout 3 were all terrible, but some of them at least had interesting designs for the thirty seconds before you thought about them and realized they were stupid. Bethesda didn't even need to think that far this time. Town creation would have been good if it were part of a single settlement and the rest of the wasteland were filled with interesting places to go and interesting things to do, rather than serving as an excuse to have a bunch of locations have absolutely nothing.

The voiced protagonists is by far the lowest point. The performances are themselves good, but the requirement to have someone actually read everything written means that the number of dialog options are miniscule. Fallout 3 (to a lesser extent) and New Vegas allowed for more ways to ask questions, more questions to ask, and ways to add interesting twists to dialog like Skill Checks, Perk Checks, and Faction Checks. In 4, there are always four options. Usually four different ways to say yes. If you download the mod that lets you see all of the dialog options in full, you quickly realize that most of them are the same choices anyway. Besides, what if the voice doesn't it? Bethesda already decided that roleplaying was for losers when they preset your backstory as a veteran or a lawyer who minored in Power Armor Usage in college, but allowing you to determine a voice that fits your own character in your mind is way more immersive than having to follow the specific reading that Bethesda decided was right.

The story is absolutely terrible. Every faction is full of idiots who have no logical motives or desires (here's looking at you, Institute). The quests you go on all, with a few noticeable exceptions, boil down to go somewhere and shoot someone with no other options or interactions possible. You're strung along a very specific path with no deviation, like the ability to realize that maybe, just maybe, your kid isn't a baby anymore. What you are strung along is full of logical errors and plot holes, like how Kellogg's Frosted Flakes refers to an old man pulling the strings of the Institute in his memories.

You are totally correct about combat and AI being better. There is no possible way to contest that. Same with the removal of the Karma system, though New Vegas had essentially already done that by making karma not matter. Bethesda continues to be very good at building individual environments with a lot of detail, though almost all of them are just shooting galleries and not places to interact with. It's just a shame that there's no meat. There's no interesting story full of complicated motives and criss-crossing loyalties. There is no player choice. There's no roleplaying in the roleplaying game. It isn't Fallout.

In there is a bitter, angry rant. Click at your own risk.

I know that I'm in the minority here. The flaws I find aren't flaws in the majority of the gaming public's opinions. Fallout 4 is slicker, more well produced, and more appealing to the vast majority of the gamers out there. They like it, it sells well, and they have fun with it. That's good for them. Unfortunately it isn't for me. The things I like, like Fallout: New Vegas, 1, and 2, just aren't popular anymore. I think the reason why I dislike Fallout 4 so much is the same reason I dislike Skyrim so much. It's a franchise I used to love turning away from the things I love. The success of Fallout 4 and Skyrim just means that big budget versions of games like New Vegas and Morrowind just aren't going to be made anymore. I think that's a tragedy.
I wouldn't say you are the minority. Most consensus I heard round the web and even from my friend who doesn't play role playign games much is that fallout 4 was disappointing. Hell, even hard core Bethesda channels that Bethesda allowed to have copies early are finally admitting to these same faults. I really do hope they drop the voice protag and pre determined backstory thing in the next game
 

Tanis

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Aug 30, 2010
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Hopefully the PC version will get a physical release so I can put it in my mini-nuke.
 

Major_Tom

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Fancy coming up with an 'immersive' way to build a nuclear generator? Or remove a concrete foundation? In a game universe where a bar of soap lasts 200yrs in the exact same spot and isn't looted? Thought not.
How about the one from State of Decay? Open a map of the settlement, plop some buildings on some pre-determined locations, done! Or, maybe all the buildings are already there and I can upgrade them in different ways. I mean of all the things they dumbed down streamlined, why is settlement building left needlessly complex?
The end result is one of the most expressively engaging and creatively detailed environments I've ever experienced in gaming, which segues perfectly with role-playing.
Yeah, if I spend hours crafting one myself (which I won't, 'cause it's fucking boring), otherwise all settlements look like shit.
Ftaghn To You Too said:
Directly into the mud. Build mode did make trash loot important, which is a pretty good thing, but it also freed Bethesda of the need to make interesting locations. You don't find interesting places and settlements in Fallout 4. You find interesting places to put things. The settlements in Fallout 3 were all terrible, but some of them at least had interesting designs for the thirty seconds before you thought about them and realized they were stupid. Bethesda didn't even need to think that far this time. Town creation would have been good if it were part of a single settlement and the rest of the wasteland were filled with interesting places to go and interesting things to do, rather than serving as an excuse to have a bunch of locations have absolutely nothing.

The voiced protagonists is by far the lowest point. The performances are themselves good, but the requirement to have someone actually read everything written means that the number of dialog options are miniscule. Fallout 3 (to a lesser extent) and New Vegas allowed for more ways to ask questions, more questions to ask, and ways to add interesting twists to dialog like Skill Checks, Perk Checks, and Faction Checks. In 4, there are always four options. Usually four different ways to say yes. If you download the mod that lets you see all of the dialog options in full, you quickly realize that most of them are the same choices anyway. Besides, what if the voice doesn't it? Bethesda already decided that roleplaying was for losers when they preset your backstory as a veteran or a lawyer who minored in Power Armor Usage in college, but allowing you to determine a voice that fits your own character in your mind is way more immersive than having to follow the specific reading that Bethesda decided was right.

The story is absolutely terrible. Every faction is full of idiots who have no logical motives or desires (here's looking at you, Institute). The quests you go on all, with a few noticeable exceptions, boil down to go somewhere and shoot someone with no other options or interactions possible. You're strung along a very specific path with no deviation, like the ability to realize that maybe, just maybe, your kid isn't a baby anymore. What you are strung along is full of logical errors and plot holes, like how Kellogg's Frosted Flakes refers to an old man pulling the strings of the Institute in his memories.

You are totally correct about combat and AI being better. There is no possible way to contest that. Same with the removal of the Karma system, though New Vegas had essentially already done that by making karma not matter. Bethesda continues to be very good at building individual environments with a lot of detail, though almost all of them are just shooting galleries and not places to interact with. It's just a shame that there's no meat. There's no interesting story full of complicated motives and criss-crossing loyalties. There is no player choice. There's no roleplaying in the roleplaying game. It isn't Fallout.
Your rant is 100% correct but even in areas they improved (combat) they made some serious steps back. Who thinks enchanted receivers are an improvement over different ammo types?
 

Paragon Fury

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kenu12345 said:
Paragon Fury said:
I don't get the hate for FO4's DLC.

You have 3 things primarily dedicated to side-things;

Contraptions
Vault-Tec
Wasteland Workshop


And then 3 Story DLCs;

Automatron - New Faction, Robot Building, Robot Invasion of Commonwealth
Far Harbor - Unravel the mystery of Far Harbor and Nick's Past
Nuka World - Travel the Nuka World amusement park and become it's absolute ruler and wreck the Commonwealth if you want (or bury those Raider asshats and free everyone)

If you bought the Season Pass when it originally came out, you got a goddamn steal. If you bought it later, you basically got 1 Story or two Workshop DLCs free.

And the number of story DLC's is comparable to past titles too - Oblivion had 2, FO3 had 3.5, NV had 3.5, Skyrim had 2 etc. So FO4 having 2.5 Story DLCs is on par with Oblivion and Skyrim, and just behind FO3 and NV. While it doesn't have a Broken Steel, Shivering Isles, Dragonborn, OWB, LR, Far Harbor is easily one better story DLCs, and Nuka-World is still fun.
New Vegas had 4 dlcs that all added items, areas, and stories to the game. I don't get why you put .5 on there
I'm excluding just "Item/Mod" DLCs like people like to do for the 3 for FO4, so that means no Gun Runners for NV, no Hearthstone for Skyrim and none of the houses etc. for Oblivion.

I'm counting the DLCs that add very little or can be fully completed very quickly as .5 of a DLC like Shivering Isles, so I'm excluding Operation Anchorage, The Pitt, Honest Hearts and Automatron.
So that leaves:

Point Lookout
Mothership Zeta
Broken Steel

Shivering Isles
Knights of the Nine

Old World Blues
Lonesome Road
Dead Money

Dawnguard
Dragonborn

Far Harbor
Nuka World


Major_Tom said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
Fancy coming up with an 'immersive' way to build a nuclear generator? Or remove a concrete foundation? In a game universe where a bar of soap lasts 200yrs in the exact same spot and isn't looted? Thought not.
How about the one from State of Decay? Open a map of the settlement, plop some buildings on some pre-determined locations, done! Or, maybe all the buildings are already there and I can upgrade them in different ways. I mean of all the things they dumbed down streamlined, why is settlement building left needlessly complex?
The end result is one of the most expressively engaging and creatively detailed environments I've ever experienced in gaming, which segues perfectly with role-playing.
Yeah, if I spend hours crafting one myself (which I won't, 'cause it's fucking boring), otherwise all settlements look like shit.
Ftaghn To You Too said:
Directly into the mud. Build mode did make trash loot important, which is a pretty good thing, but it also freed Bethesda of the need to make interesting locations. You don't find interesting places and settlements in Fallout 4. You find interesting places to put things. The settlements in Fallout 3 were all terrible, but some of them at least had interesting designs for the thirty seconds before you thought about them and realized they were stupid. Bethesda didn't even need to think that far this time. Town creation would have been good if it were part of a single settlement and the rest of the wasteland were filled with interesting places to go and interesting things to do, rather than serving as an excuse to have a bunch of locations have absolutely nothing.

The voiced protagonists is by far the lowest point. The performances are themselves good, but the requirement to have someone actually read everything written means that the number of dialog options are miniscule. Fallout 3 (to a lesser extent) and New Vegas allowed for more ways to ask questions, more questions to ask, and ways to add interesting twists to dialog like Skill Checks, Perk Checks, and Faction Checks. In 4, there are always four options. Usually four different ways to say yes. If you download the mod that lets you see all of the dialog options in full, you quickly realize that most of them are the same choices anyway. Besides, what if the voice doesn't it? Bethesda already decided that roleplaying was for losers when they preset your backstory as a veteran or a lawyer who minored in Power Armor Usage in college, but allowing you to determine a voice that fits your own character in your mind is way more immersive than having to follow the specific reading that Bethesda decided was right.

The story is absolutely terrible. Every faction is full of idiots who have no logical motives or desires (here's looking at you, Institute). The quests you go on all, with a few noticeable exceptions, boil down to go somewhere and shoot someone with no other options or interactions possible. You're strung along a very specific path with no deviation, like the ability to realize that maybe, just maybe, your kid isn't a baby anymore. What you are strung along is full of logical errors and plot holes, like how Kellogg's Frosted Flakes refers to an old man pulling the strings of the Institute in his memories.

You are totally correct about combat and AI being better. There is no possible way to contest that. Same with the removal of the Karma system, though New Vegas had essentially already done that by making karma not matter. Bethesda continues to be very good at building individual environments with a lot of detail, though almost all of them are just shooting galleries and not places to interact with. It's just a shame that there's no meat. There's no interesting story full of complicated motives and criss-crossing loyalties. There is no player choice. There's no roleplaying in the roleplaying game. It isn't Fallout.
Your rant is 100% correct but even in areas they improved (combat) they made some serious steps back. Who thinks enchanted receivers are an improvement over different ammo types?
The different ammo types was largely pointless; basically every weapon had a "best" ammo type that you used because it was either stupidly common or way more common than the other types.
 

kenu12345

Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Aug 3, 2011
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Paragon Fury said:
kenu12345 said:
Paragon Fury said:
I don't get the hate for FO4's DLC.

You have 3 things primarily dedicated to side-things;

Contraptions
Vault-Tec
Wasteland Workshop


And then 3 Story DLCs;

Automatron - New Faction, Robot Building, Robot Invasion of Commonwealth
Far Harbor - Unravel the mystery of Far Harbor and Nick's Past
Nuka World - Travel the Nuka World amusement park and become it's absolute ruler and wreck the Commonwealth if you want (or bury those Raider asshats and free everyone)

If you bought the Season Pass when it originally came out, you got a goddamn steal. If you bought it later, you basically got 1 Story or two Workshop DLCs free.

And the number of story DLC's is comparable to past titles too - Oblivion had 2, FO3 had 3.5, NV had 3.5, Skyrim had 2 etc. So FO4 having 2.5 Story DLCs is on par with Oblivion and Skyrim, and just behind FO3 and NV. While it doesn't have a Broken Steel, Shivering Isles, Dragonborn, OWB, LR, Far Harbor is easily one better story DLCs, and Nuka-World is still fun.
New Vegas had 4 dlcs that all added items, areas, and stories to the game. I don't get why you put .5 on there
I'm excluding just "Item/Mod" DLCs like people like to do for the 3 for FO4, so that means no Gun Runners for NV, no Hearthstone for Skyrim and none of the houses etc. for Oblivion.

I'm counting the DLCs that add very little or can be fully completed very quickly as .5 of a DLC like Shivering Isles, so I'm excluding Operation Anchorage, The Pitt, Honest Hearts and Automatron.
So that leaves:

Point Lookout
Mothership Zeta
Broken Steel

Shivering Isles
Knights of the Nine

Old World Blues
Lonesome Road
Dead Money

Dawnguard
Dragonborn

Far Harbor
Nuka World
Dead Money, Honest Hearts, Old World Blues, and Lonesome Road are all more then item dlc. There are four big dlcs for new vegas. I really don't see how Honest Hearts is any less than the other dlcs when it ads bout the same sise area and as many items and story content. Hell it can be argued bout being bigger than dead money

Not to mention in your original post with the .5 statement you counted automatron as a full dlc
 

Chewster

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BloodRed Pixel said:
Yeah, Far Harbor and Automatron are good but the rest of the DLC is like for the people who actually don't want to play Fallout 4 but SimCity.
I actually really enjoy the world building stuff but I'm annoyed I had to buy this game twice just to get the DLC to work. That's some bullshit but I imagine some of it is on PlayStation too.

Also, fix the fucking bugs before this GOTY nonsense. You can't include settlement building only to have all the stuff I painstakingly set up fall through the Goddamn shelves and under my house! And do pack Brahmin end up inside? Obnoxious!
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Major_Tom said:
How about the one from State of Decay? Open a map of the settlement, plop some buildings on some pre-determined locations, done! Or, maybe all the buildings are already there and I can upgrade them in different ways.
So your solution is take away all potential creativity?

I mean of all the things they dumbed down streamlined, why is settlement building left needlessly complex?
Does it matter why a mode is powerful and versatile?

Aside from that, whilst the UI could've done with another design pass or two, I don't think the system is complex, let alone "needlessly"; you pick items, and place them. Simples. It can become a right pain to scroll through lists once you've piled on the DLC's and mods, and ideally they should've perhaps had the cursor default to memory (though that'll always be a situational benefit and negative, so there's no perfect solution), but jeese, for builders the system needs to be more complex - and mods like Place Anywhere thankfully provide that (complete placement freedom in the red, control over snapping behaviour, ability to toggle directional alignment grids, options to toggle physics to make individual objects static, etc).

...though a part of me does wonder just how the game ended up with so potent a starting point for the mode. How long was this range of options in the game, and how much time was dedicated to it in this form? It certainly felt like the system and the whole idea of actual settlement building could've been developed further. I am a tad suspicious that they left such a powerful mode in the game, and the lack of any real worthwhile tutorial could suggest it was a relatively late addition, or at least beyond the basics of catering to potential settler needs (water, beds, food, shelter) they more or less left/abandoned the system to more hardcore players willing to teach themselves and each other.

Regardless, I'm glad it ended up the way it did, as no other game's ever matched what it offers.

Yeah, if I spend hours crafting one myself (which I won't, 'cause it's fucking boring), otherwise all settlements look like shit.
If you can't be bothered to learn the system, then that's your own fault. Maybe you do want Bethesda's games to be completely streamlined, but as I said above regardless how it happened I'm thankful this mode somehow got through fully featured (and it's still not exactly rocket science, either).

There are also mod options out there now which semi-automate actual settlement growth [https://youtu.be/BzaFDTY-DFA], and they can throw up some great looking solutions.

Ftaghn To You Too said:
Build mode did make trash loot important, which is a pretty good thing, but it also freed Bethesda of the need to make interesting locations. You don't find interesting places and settlements in Fallout 4. You find interesting places to put things.
It's a pithy line, but would you concede that's highly subjective?

To me the Commonwealth as a whole was more than interesting enough. Ostensibly Diamond City's its only real centre of culture and civilisation, and so the rest of the map is the sticks - claimed by raiders, some settlers, or simply left abandoned. If we're rolling with the notion that this is a real place 210 years after the bombs dropped, then it's a catastrophic failure of world building and speculative fiction... But this is Fallout; it's ultimately a cartoon world, certainly post-Fallout 3, so we either accept or reject that from the outset. In that context the wasteland's well designed enough to be compelling.

Another effect of the build and settlement mode - which potentially ties in to the game's perhaps questionable use of locations - is that it necessarily gives over very valuable map real estate to the player to dick around in. I loved the build mode, but c'mon, Croup Manor, the Coastal Cottage, and a few other locations? They were utter bullshit, sites where even heavily modded games struggled hard to do anything with. Either they were throw-away sites Bethesda never intended - or never had time - to do anything with, or they were just appallingly thought out parts of the map reserved for the player to do--- fuck knows what with.

As many have said since 4's release the settlement system was threadbare in terms of its features/mechanics, and would've greatly benefited from more of a narrative approach to each site. It wouldn't have appeased everyone (nothing will), but it's fair to speculate that more would be engaged with it if forming an alliance with a ragtag settlement and helping them get set up, then grow, had fully fledged sidequests with a handful of NPC's to talk to - as opposed to, typically, one kill quest for NPC #2375.2b, aka Settler.

However, mods are developing the idea, like the semi-automated generation and settler salvage beacons.

Bethesda didn't even need to think that far this time. Town creation would have been good if it were part of a single settlement and the rest of the wasteland were filled with interesting places to go and interesting things to do, rather than serving as an excuse to have a bunch of locations have absolutely nothing.
A "single settlement", as in only having one site to develop? I think that would've been a horrible idea. You maybe didn't take a liking to the system, but for anyone fond of the build mode part of the charm of finding new sites was in what they had to offer, what problems they posed, and how you'd go about developing them.

The voiced protagonists is by far the lowest point. The performances are themselves good, but the requirement to have someone actually read everything written means that the number of dialog options are miniscule.
This is an age old problem, and I don't envy Bethesda trying to resolve it, because they cannot make everyone happy.

Mute characters results in the largest scope for true RP, and for branching dialogue and, potentially, consequences.
Voiced characters results in a more 'realistic', engagingly dramatic experience.

Personally? For what was largely a fixed narrative character, I came to greatly enjoy the voiced protagonist because it made for more lively story and character interactions, particularly as Courtenay Taylor was so damn good. The Sole Survivor felt, sounded, and looked like a real person part of a world - as opposed to the mute, inert avatars of past Bethesda games.

I like the idea of a game supporting real RP potential/scope. But honestly I think I now prefer the experience voiced protagonists offer, and I'd say most casual gamers think likewise (as they don't ever tend to be the ones planning out character arcs, writing up backgrounds, and thinking through motivations).

Ultimately, though, I won't mind which one Bethesda go for in the next TES or/and Fallout. I enjoyed mute PC's since Morrowind, but I also enjoyed F4's voiced.

Bethesda already decided that roleplaying was for losers when they preset your backstory as a veteran or a lawyer who minored in Power Armor Usage in college, but allowing you to determine a voice that fits your own character in your mind is way more immersive than having to follow the specific reading that Bethesda decided was right.
I think Todd Howard admitted that that was something they consciously tried, i.e. a more defined narrative opening and character, and that it was considered a bit of a swing and a miss - at least by fans.

As I said above, I was fine with it because I felt the PC was voiced so damn well. For a more linear story, I felt a more linear character was necessary. Regardless, it seems Bethesda won't be repeating that for TESVI, at least.

The story is absolutely terrible. Every faction is full of idiots who have no logical motives or desires (here's looking at you, Institute).
Eh, I kinda disagree. The factions have potential at least, and I appreciate that each of them - perhaps bar the Minutemen, who are clearly the default Good Guys of the story - contain dissenting voices, or even those simply expressing skepticism at their own methodology and/or goals.

The Railroad are easy to sympathise with, but are dogmatically myopic, and their leadership's stance on memory wipes isn't exactly ethically sound. The Brotherhood have the means to secure the Commonwealth, and they have some decent folk within their ranks, but not only are they prejudiced but they also share the Institute's disdain for the regular settlers just trying to survive sans dogmatic crusade.

And the Institute are--- well, I suppose as close as the story gets to clear-cut badguys, given Sean's a fuckin' sociopathic maniac and they see the Commonwealth as little more than sheep to either save or abuse.

Is the MQ well written and structured? No... but the factions are at least distinct, and still lend themselves to at a handful of RP's (the ultimate motivations for why the player is having the Sole Survivor stick with one group are left open). Was the MQ any worse than Skyrim's? Or Fallout 3's? Or Oblivion's? I'd argue it's about on par with those, frankly, if not better.

The quests you go on all, with a few noticeable exceptions, boil down to go somewhere and shoot someone with no other options or interactions possible.
Isn't that pretty much the 'Bethesda method'? It can't really be said Fallout 4's particularly worse than their mainline games before it.

Would more choice and variety be a good thing? Absolutely, but I'd probably say the same of the vast majority of games I've ever played or will ever play. Fallout 4 at least had the courtesy to have pretty damn good core gameplay (something TES has never really had, nor did Fallout 3. if we're counting NV, then I'd say that was just about passable whilst still being horribly janky) to make the rinse'n'repeat gameflow quite enjoyable, at least for most.

There is no player choice. There's no roleplaying in the roleplaying game. It isn't Fallout.
Speak for yourself: I still managed to find RP distinctions for a second character. I mean, I had to completely write her off when the Brotherhood questline flat out broke in Survival mode (thanks for bug fixin' yer games, Bethesda!)... but a modded female war veteran who was a Brotherhood loyalist was a very different role to play than the selfless Minutemen saviour turned Railroad subversive.

...to be fair I used to refer to it as an anti-role-playing RPG, largely because the game denies the option to craft a backstory as it also imposes a general personality as well, so I can understand where the sentiment comes from. But honestly, I feel most RPG's fail the test. Is Mass Effect one? Is The Witcher? Compared to the purity of Morrowind, or to a slightly lesser extent even Oblivion or Skyrim, they suck as true role-players.

I think the reason why I dislike Fallout 4 so much is the same reason I dislike Skyrim so much. It's a franchise I used to love turning away from the things I love. The success of Fallout 4 and Skyrim just means that big budget versions of games like New Vegas and Morrowind just aren't going to be made anymore. I think that's a tragedy.
Ah, I should've really read the last few lines before replying, given you're no fan of Skyrim, either.

Still, as I've said many a time; I was a full on Morrowhiner - I hated the mass market, relatively infantile Oblivion, and felt Fallout 3 was one of the dumbest games I'd ever played. However, by the time Skyrim rolled around, I'd made peace with the fact that Bethesda weren't making games 'for me' anymore. I could keep whining, or try to enjoy the direction they were headed. Fallout 4 arguably became the most enjoyable product to me since Morrowind, of all things.

It may sound like a cop-out, but no matter how dumb their own stories are in Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and even Fallout 4, the stories - of various kinds - that the player can weave are singular. There is no other game series that provides such a canvass to immerse yourself in a gorgeously crafted first-person world, and find your own adventures, even if it's those primarily told my exploration and moments in the wild. That, to me, was always Morrowind's finest essential quality, and that spirit still exists throughout their games.

And as I said, the build mode adds in profound ways to the kinds of character you can project; you can build their environments, their very homes and towns. That creative narrative quality cannot be dismissed.