Fallout 4 Review - Post-Apocalyptic Warlord Simulator 2287

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WolfThomas

Man must have a code.
Dec 21, 2007
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Shamanic Rhythm said:
-The SPECIAL system has been neutered
Honestly SPECIAL was broken all the way back in Fallout 2. Yes you could make an idiot character. But it was very easy to work out what minimum level you needed in each thing for perks combined with the benefits you'd get from power armor, implants, the bonus from the hubologist (+2 Luck for nothing!) items like the lucky sunglasses.

For example you only needed if recall a max of 6strength to use all guns. Because you could get power armour + 1, implant + 1 and perk weapon handling + 2 strength with weapons.

Fallout 3 + NV were even more broken bobble heads, implants etc, then the right combination of books and clothing to boost the last few SPECIAL or skills. You never needed 100 in lockpick, because 90+ a book would do. Then if you had clothing that was +10 you only needed 80 etc.
 

kenu12345

Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Aug 3, 2011
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Denamic said:
Shamanic Rhythm said:
-The SPECIAL system has been neutered
Wait, you think the SPECIAL system actually did things in FO3 and NV? Strength game you carrying capacity, Intelligence gave you skill points, and Luck gave you damage. Everything else was basically useless beyond being perk requirements. They are far more impactful in Fallout 4 than they have ever been. In what way is SPECIAL worse in FO4 than in any other game in the series? What do the former revisions provide that the current one does not?
You do realie that they are still just barriers for perks in this game too. Btw Perception changes how far you can see enemies from on the radar. Endurance changed base damage threshold and how much health you had and how much resistance you had. Charisma changed stats on your companions. Agility affected your amount of action points, weapon reload speeds, and draw speed. Just cause you didn't know they did these doesn't mean they didn't do these things
 

Denamic

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Aug 19, 2009
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kenu12345 said:
Denamic said:
Shamanic Rhythm said:
-The SPECIAL system has been neutered
Wait, you think the SPECIAL system actually did things in FO3 and NV? Strength game you carrying capacity, Intelligence gave you skill points, and Luck gave you damage. Everything else was basically useless beyond being perk requirements. They are far more impactful in Fallout 4 than they have ever been. In what way is SPECIAL worse in FO4 than in any other game in the series? What do the former revisions provide that the current one does not?
You do realie that they are still just barriers for perks in this game too. Btw Perception changes how far you can see enemies from on the radar. Endurance changed base damage threshold and how much health you had and how much resistance you had. Charisma changed stats on your companions. Agility affected your amount of action points, weapon reload speeds, and draw speed. Just cause you didn't know they did these doesn't mean they didn't do these things
I know these things, but the thing is that these things are so minuscule that you would never even notice if the effect vanished entirely, save for maybe the AP bonus from agility. My point is that when compared to strength, intelligence, and luck, no SPECIAL attribute have any value beside meeting perk requirements. And if you allocate a special point wrong, you'll be permanently locked out of certain perks. Without meta game knowledge, there's no way for you to anticipate this and the only option you have is to restart, cheat, or just never get those perks. In FO4, SPECIAL attributes are much less arbitrary, yet they all have significant, noticeable benefits beyond unlocking perks.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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Dec 6, 2009
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Denamic said:
kenu12345 said:
Denamic said:
Shamanic Rhythm said:
-The SPECIAL system has been neutered
Wait, you think the SPECIAL system actually did things in FO3 and NV? Strength game you carrying capacity, Intelligence gave you skill points, and Luck gave you damage. Everything else was basically useless beyond being perk requirements. They are far more impactful in Fallout 4 than they have ever been. In what way is SPECIAL worse in FO4 than in any other game in the series? What do the former revisions provide that the current one does not?
You do realie that they are still just barriers for perks in this game too. Btw Perception changes how far you can see enemies from on the radar. Endurance changed base damage threshold and how much health you had and how much resistance you had. Charisma changed stats on your companions. Agility affected your amount of action points, weapon reload speeds, and draw speed. Just cause you didn't know they did these doesn't mean they didn't do these things
I know these things, but the thing is that these things are so minuscule that you would never even notice if the effect vanished entirely, save for maybe the AP bonus from agility. My point is that when compared to strength, intelligence, and luck, no SPECIAL attribute have any value beside meeting perk requirements. And if you allocate a special point wrong, you'll be permanently locked out of certain perks. Without meta game knowledge, there's no way for you to anticipate this and the only option you have is to restart, cheat, or just never get those perks. In FO4, SPECIAL attributes are much less arbitrary, yet they all have significant, noticeable benefits beyond unlocking perks.
Out of interest, what is your idea of a stats system which has meaningful interaction with the rest of the statistics, and/or tangible impact on the game?

And the way you're talking about strength, luck and intelligence sounds like you're taking what is the 'optimal' playthrough and from that deriving that anything else is worthless. Which is like saying that any Pokemon lineup that doesn't include Dragonite or Alakazam is useless. Or that any Sorceress build in Diablo 2 without Frozen Orb is useless. The other stats in Fallout 3 had some worthwhile benefits that made for interesting character choices, if you weren't just playing for minmaxing.
 

Denamic

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Aug 19, 2009
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Shamanic Rhythm said:
Out of interest, what is your idea of a stats system which has meaningful interaction with the rest of the statistics, and/or tangible impact on the game?

And the way you're talking about strength, luck and intelligence sounds like you're taking what is the 'optimal' playthrough and from that deriving that anything else is worthless. Which is like saying that any Pokemon lineup that doesn't include Dragonite or Alakazam is useless. Or that any Sorceress build in Diablo 2 without Frozen Orb is useless. The other stats in Fallout 3 had some worthwhile benefits that made for interesting character choices, if you weren't just playing for minmaxing.
A meaningful interaction would be when one attribute doesn't have a clear and obvious more useful application than another. For example, the difference between 10 and 1 int at level 20+ is astronomical in previous Fallouts. The skill point gain per level makes an enormous difference. The difference between 1 and 10 luck is "barely ever getting a crit" and "almost always getting a crit", because each point is multiplied by the weapon you use. Luck is by far the most important attribute for doing damage. And strength is just too useful to pass up. The inventory weight limit alone makes it vital if you don't want to be encumbered by just the weapons and armor you use. Contrast this to the difference between 1 and 10 perception. The only difference is the red blips on the compass. That is literally it. Endurance? The difference between 1 and 10 endurance is 180 health and some rad resistance. That makes very, very little difference beyond the very start of the game, because you get the same amount of health when you level up regardless of your endurance, eventually rendering the impact endurance has basically null. Rad resistance can be easily maxed out with rad-x when you need it anyway. Agility is the most 'useful' attribute out of the useless attributes. It makes reloading 10% faster or slower per point if above or below 5 points, and it gives a whole 3 AP per attribute point. It shouldn't be below 6 in any case, because it's necessary for some vital perks. Charisma just increases companion damage by 5% per point, which is extremely boring.

To make a meaningful difference, each attribute needs to have a tangible benefit. It's much better in FO4, because now each point in every attribute provide a tangible difference. Strength is the same as before, but perception, endurance, charisma, and agility has been buffed/changed to bring them up to par with the benefits of strength. Luck and intelligence has likewise been nerfed to bring them down to par. You're no longer crippling yourself by having less than 10 int, because it's no longer the single most important attribute, and putting points in charisma actually has value beyond roleplaying and perks. I won't say it's perfect, but it's absolutely better than what it used to be.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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Dec 6, 2009
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Denamic said:
Shamanic Rhythm said:
Out of interest, what is your idea of a stats system which has meaningful interaction with the rest of the statistics, and/or tangible impact on the game?

And the way you're talking about strength, luck and intelligence sounds like you're taking what is the 'optimal' playthrough and from that deriving that anything else is worthless. Which is like saying that any Pokemon lineup that doesn't include Dragonite or Alakazam is useless. Or that any Sorceress build in Diablo 2 without Frozen Orb is useless. The other stats in Fallout 3 had some worthwhile benefits that made for interesting character choices, if you weren't just playing for minmaxing.
A meaningful interaction would be when one attribute doesn't have a clear and obvious more useful application than another. For example, the difference between 10 and 1 int at level 20+ is astronomical in previous Fallouts. The skill point gain per level makes an enormous difference. The difference between 1 and 10 luck is "barely ever getting a crit" and "almost always getting a crit", because each point is multiplied by the weapon you use. Luck is by far the most important attribute for doing damage. And strength is just too useful to pass up. The inventory weight limit alone makes it vital if you don't want to be encumbered by just the weapons and armor you use. Contrast this to the difference between 1 and 10 perception. The only difference is the red blips on the compass. That is literally it. Endurance? The difference between 1 and 10 endurance is 180 health and some rad resistance. That makes very, very little difference beyond the very start of the game, because you get the same amount of health when you level up regardless of your endurance, eventually rendering the impact endurance has basically null. Rad resistance can be easily maxed out with rad-x when you need it anyway. Agility is the most 'useful' attribute out of the useless attributes. It makes reloading 10% faster or slower per point if above or below 5 points, and it gives a whole 3 AP per attribute point. It shouldn't be below 6 in any case, because it's necessary for some vital perks. Charisma just increases companion damage by 5% per point, which is extremely boring.

To make a meaningful difference, each attribute needs to have a tangible benefit. It's much better in FO4, because now each point in every attribute provide a tangible difference. Strength is the same as before, but perception, endurance, charisma, and agility has been buffed/changed to bring them up to par with the benefits of strength. Luck and intelligence has likewise been nerfed to bring them down to par. You're no longer crippling yourself by having less than 10 int, because it's no longer the single most important attribute, and putting points in charisma actually has value beyond roleplaying and perks. I won't say it's perfect, but it's absolutely better than what it used to be.
Thanks for the considered response. I guess your point is that the SPECIAL stats are not meaningless or reduced in Fallout4. I was just summarising the points being made in the review and commenting on the discrepancy at the end, but it's good to know that there is something more to the system now.