Fat shaming vs. necessary dialouge on obesity

AJ_Lethal

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senordesol said:
The fucking point is the amount of lifestyle choices one has to make to A. Be fit and B. Go from fat to fit may be simple on paper; are not always so simple in practice. I am NOT suggesting it is impossible. But it is a considerable asking, and for anyone to judge another as 'sub-human' or 'lesser' for declining the challenge is a pretty scummy thing to do.

The body loves to exercise you say? I've tried sports (3 years), karate (11 years), weight training (1 year), swimming (2 years), and aerobics (1 year). Never found any of those particularly fun, fulfilling, or rewarding. You're trying to insist things to me that are simply untrue. 'It complains 'at first', you say? The hell does 'at first' mean? The first decade?

And if someone would rather put their thought and energy elsewhere? That they'd rather do work they enjoy for twelve hours than do work they don't? Are we calling them lazy and unmotivated? See, *that* is the thing that's irksome to me.
I would like to ask you something first: do/did you really want(ed) to lose weight? And with "really" I mean "I will do anything to reach that." Because if you jumped into that and realized the mountain you're going to climb is real fucking high I can see why did you get demotivated.
 

senordesol

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AJ_Lethal said:
senordesol said:
The fucking point is the amount of lifestyle choices one has to make to A. Be fit and B. Go from fat to fit may be simple on paper; are not always so simple in practice. I am NOT suggesting it is impossible. But it is a considerable asking, and for anyone to judge another as 'sub-human' or 'lesser' for declining the challenge is a pretty scummy thing to do.

The body loves to exercise you say? I've tried sports (3 years), karate (11 years), weight training (1 year), swimming (2 years), and aerobics (1 year). Never found any of those particularly fun, fulfilling, or rewarding. You're trying to insist things to me that are simply untrue. 'It complains 'at first', you say? The hell does 'at first' mean? The first decade?

And if someone would rather put their thought and energy elsewhere? That they'd rather do work they enjoy for twelve hours than do work they don't? Are we calling them lazy and unmotivated? See, *that* is the thing that's irksome to me.
I would like to ask you something first: do/did you really want(ed) to lose weight? And with "really" I mean "I will do anything to reach that." Because if you jumped into that and realized the mountain you're going to climb is real fucking high I can see why did you get demotivated.
Whether I did or whether I didn't isn't the point, now is it?
 

spartan231490

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Welcome to the new world, where everyone is absolutely perfect, and the one who is right is the one who is most offended
 

AJ_Lethal

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senordesol said:
AJ_Lethal said:
senordesol said:
The fucking point is the amount of lifestyle choices one has to make to A. Be fit and B. Go from fat to fit may be simple on paper; are not always so simple in practice. I am NOT suggesting it is impossible. But it is a considerable asking, and for anyone to judge another as 'sub-human' or 'lesser' for declining the challenge is a pretty scummy thing to do.

The body loves to exercise you say? I've tried sports (3 years), karate (11 years), weight training (1 year), swimming (2 years), and aerobics (1 year). Never found any of those particularly fun, fulfilling, or rewarding. You're trying to insist things to me that are simply untrue. 'It complains 'at first', you say? The hell does 'at first' mean? The first decade?

And if someone would rather put their thought and energy elsewhere? That they'd rather do work they enjoy for twelve hours than do work they don't? Are we calling them lazy and unmotivated? See, *that* is the thing that's irksome to me.
I would like to ask you something first: do/did you really want(ed) to lose weight? And with "really" I mean "I will do anything to reach that." Because if you jumped into that and realized the mountain you're going to climb is real fucking high I can see why did you get demotivated.
Whether I did or whether I didn't isn't the point, now is it?
Well, just tell me if you really wanted it. I know firsthand what's getting frustrated by trying something, not getting it worked and being "unable" to figure out what you have to do make it work.
 

senordesol

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AJ_Lethal said:
Well, just tell me if you really wanted it. I know firsthand what's getting frustrated by trying something, not getting it worked and being "unable" to figure out what you have to do make it work.
Not sure why you care; but at my 'healthiest', I was doing Karate 3x/w, Weight training 4x/w, Walking at least 0.5 hours 6x/w, and shooting hoops for 1-2 hrs every day. I was eating homecooked meals, and staying away (for the most part) from crap. This went on for a year. So, yes, I was honestly giving it a shot.

I rubber banded between 38"-40" until life circumstances disallowed such a regular regimen.

Does this satisfy your curiosity?
 

Phasmal

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At the moment my boyfriend is trying to lose weight, because he is overweight. I'm in my `ideal` weight range but I want to lose about a stone or half a stone, so we're losing weight together.

Other than my conversations with my boyfriend about my concerns for his health- when would I need to talk to someone about their weight?

That's incredibly personal and rude. Hell, it took me a while to broach it with the person I have been dating for five years- so if you're talking about people's weight to people you barely know, you're a dick.

Don't be a dick.

Fat people are not blind. They know they are fat. As far as I am concerned, that's their deal. You should only talk about it if it's someone you are very close to and you are concerned and think they need some help and even then don't be a dick about it.
 

giles

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senordesol said:
Never found any of those particularly fun, fulfilling, or rewarding. You're trying to insist things to me that are simply untrue. 'It complains 'at first', you say? The hell does 'at first' mean? The first decade?
That's a shame. Maybe there is an exercise out there that suits you. Or maybe not.
With "at first" I meant when you start each exercise, of course. I used to think the first mile during my run would get easier when I become a better runner, but it's still hard. It will always be hard. Now, I wouldn't have it any other way. Getting past that first mile feels good. Feeling the exhaustion and responding by increasing the tempo. Nothing can beat that.
And if someone would rather put their thought and energy elsewhere? That they'd rather do work they enjoy for twelve hours than do work they don't? Are we calling them lazy and unmotivated? See, *that* is the thing that's irksome to me.
Well we've come quite a way from "it requires changing EVERYTHING about who you are [...] for years --for the rest of your life in some cases" to "what if someone doesn't want to bother?". Remember our discussion started because you claimed that getting fit is extremely difficult and I simply explained how I got fit in the span of a few months.
We can drop the exercising if you want. Just walking to places etc. can be fine for your health after all. What about nutrition then? How difficult can it be to change dietary habits? As I explained, I don't think someone who eats the fatty junk food and sugar drinks actually loves food, so I doubt such a person would have to change "everything" about themselves. Do someone people actually define themselves by eating more calories than they require? If so, I think that person has a mental problem and should probably sort that out first.

Lastly I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I don't particularly hate overweight people. All I wanted to point out here was that it's not a herculean task to change if you want to. If someone just doesn't want to bother with getting fit that's fine. It's their choice. The choices one makes with what's given to them is, I think, what defines a person. Consequently, I find it appropriate to judge people by their choices. That doesn't mean I look down on overweight people (that would be really silly of me, kinda like those ex-smokers who get really mad when someone lights a smoke near them I never got that). But my first impression will be to acknowledge that they are either sick or currently in a state caused by mistreating their bodies. Like your choice of clothing or the way you introduce yourself... you wear it on your sleeve. It says something about you. That's all.
 

Hargrimm

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One huge problem in all of this is that, over the years, we have been fed a lot of really shitty and sometimes counterproductive dietary advice.
We've been told that low-fat/cholesterol is good for you and that losing weight is as simple as "calories in, calories out". Too bad it's more complicated than that.


Here's an entertaining documentary that illustrates this nicely:
The first part is mostly a follow-up to "Supersize Me" and later goes more into detail regarding biochemistry.



Here's a video by the University of California on the subject.
 

Archone

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I had to log in just to respond to all of this.

My mother suffers from type 2 diabetes. Not only is she massively obese, but for years (for YEARS!) she literally fought anyone who tried to pressure her to diet or exercise. At this point she has a heated swimming pool in her backyard that my father built for her for her physical therapy... which she almost never touches.

More to the point? She went out of her way to make all three of her sons overweight in order to justify her own girth on genetics. I was fourteen years old before I learned that not everyone eats large desserts every single night, and I was sixteen when my wrestling coach informed me that for most people two large steaks with a couple of baked potatoes was considered a bit much for a single meal. And it wasn't until I moved out that I found out that not everyone puts sugar on EVERYTHING, including cooked vegetables.

Not only did she metabolically cripple us, but when I started working to lose weight, she actively sabotaged my efforts. When I announced that I was giving up sugar, the very next day she came home with two huge boxes of doughnuts "for whoever wants them." The one time I stated that I wanted to try going on the Atkins Diet, the next day I was told, "I'm making pasta because your brother wants it, and if you don't like it - TOUGH!"

That being said... and I'm saying this for the benefit of everyone who has ever looked in the mirror and wanted to literally rip the belly fat off with their bare hands... it's not that hard to get from obese to merely chubby. First of all, the initial steps you take will have DRAMATIC effects. When I stopped eating sugar, I lost thirty pounds in the first two months. You just have to DO it. Don't talk about it, don't complain, just... do it. Everything that follows is specific advice aimed at the people who want to DO IT.

There ARE exercises you will enjoy. You just have to find them. If you hate to run, try weight lifting. If you hate weight lifting, try dancing - pole dancing, bellydancing, tap dancing, club dancing, whatever. Or circus activities (it's amazing how much of an arm workout juggling some balls can be). Or maybe you're a fan of fantasy genres; how about studying WMA and learning how to wield a sword or hammer in RL? Archery is also a good one - grab a bow with an 80 lb draw and loose arrows at the target for an hour. Or Yoga or Pilates. The webcomic "Manly Guys Doing Manly Things" has been doing a story arc about Jared the Pokemon Professor finding a workout that works for him; he decided weightlifting wasn't for him and neither was yoga, but then he found the elliptical machine. Carrying eggs while doing his thing; he has found the workout that works for him.
(Story arc begins here with the screaming: http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/re-people-who-keep-saying-they-dont-know-why-commander-isnt-tougher-on-jared )

Eating healthy is not only cheaper than eating fast food and restaurant stuff, it can also be easier and more convenient. Half an hour for a pizza delivery? I can make pizzas using Dave's Killer Bread topped with a nice array of healthy toppings in ten minutes. Let me know you want pizza tomorrow and I'll set the dough up for a cool rise in the fridge and make something that will make Pizza Hutt or Dominos employees cry over how crappy their stuff is under all the cheese.

If you think that you don't like fruits and vegetables... you do. You just haven't found the ones you like yet. There's literally dozens of species on sale at the average supermarket. You don't like red delicious apples, what about fuji? What about broccoli, or cauliflower, or artichokes or mangos or papaya? Never tried sugar snap peas in the pod? And that doesn't even touch on how food preparation affects taste; as Alton Brown noted, it's no wonder that Calvin didn't like the vegetables his mom kept turning into brown goop.

It's very hard to drop the last few pounds/inches. But getting into a decent level of basic fitness, where you might have a little spare tire but you're still full of energy and feeling good, that's not hard at all. As for myself... right now I'm back up to 310 lbs (I have a very large frame; when I say I'm big boned I mean that I look like my grandfather was a Neanderthal), but I'm back down to the same belt size I had when I was 260, before I got into a weightlifting kick. And the added muscle... is nice. I very much enjoy how strong I feel, these days.

So... that's why I posted here. Just to let you guys know: you can do it, you're not alone in wanting to do it, and here's some suggestions on how to do it. Beyond that... just do it.
 

PhiMed

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Silentpony said:
This is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, so I'll try to be both delicate and a little indelicate, as feelings sometimes do need to be hurt.

Basically reddit and youtube are all over a 'new' obesity PSA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUmp67YDlHY

and a news article:
https://www.yahoo.com/health/shocking-anti-obesity-psa-sparks-debate-94551060722.html

I've read comments on Youtube, reddit and Yahoo but I honestly can't for the life of me see the 'fat shaming' people claim the video portrays. I struggled with being overweight in High School. I joined cross country, ran 6-10 miles every day, no matter how slowly, for almost three years. Fat problem melted away. It was hard work, my feet bled, my bones broke, I cried and wanted to quit. But it wasn't an insurmountable obstacle.

So my question would be this: where/what is the line between fat shaming and the necessary harsh words that people need to start working out/eating healthy food? Is it 'get off your fat ass and workout!' or 'you WILL die from preventable complications if you don't lose weight'? I get that for a lot of people weight is very personal and leads to mental disorders, but as the PSA demonstrates, is there such thing as too much coddling? Not being tough enough or just saying 'NO! No more McDonalds! You get steams carrots and baked chicken!'
I know I always hated eating peas and broccoli as a kid. But now as a mid-20s adult, broccoli is one of my favorite foods!
In my mid-twenties I was in amazing shape. I had a 34-inch waist, a 54-inch chest, 36-inch thighs, and my neck, calves, and biceps were all 18 inches. I ran 8 miles in just under 50 minutes, I could do so many pull-ups that I started wearing weights for more resistance so that I could actually get a burn from them, and I lived in the gym. I was referred to by the nurses at the hospital where I worked as "Mr. Eye Candy".

Then... then life happened.

When your metabolism slows down, and more responsibilities are heaped upon you, and you work for 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, and then come home to two kids who don't understand that daddy needs to sleep so he can wake up and work out, come back and talk to me about this topic.
 

senordesol

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giles said:
Well we've come quite a way from "it requires changing EVERYTHING about who you are [...] for years --for the rest of your life in some cases" to "what if someone doesn't want to bother?". Remember our discussion started because you claimed that getting fit is extremely difficult and I simply explained how I got fit in the span of a few months.
We can drop the exercising if you want. Just walking to places etc. can be fine for your health after all. What about nutrition then? How difficult can it be to change dietary habits? As I explained, I don't think someone who eats the fatty junk food and sugar drinks actually loves food, so I doubt such a person would have to change "everything" about themselves. Do someone people actually define themselves by eating more calories than they require? If so, I think that person has a mental problem and should probably sort that out first.
If someone just doesn't want to bother with getting fit that's fine. It's their choice. The choices one makes with what's given to them is, I think, what defines a person. Consequently, I find it appropriate to judge people by their choices. That doesn't mean I look down on overweight people (that would be really silly of me, kinda like those ex-smokers who get really mad when someone lights a smoke near them I never got that). But my first impression will be to acknowledge that they are either sick or currently in a state caused by mistreating their bodies.
I'm not sure we've come *that* far. I'll acknowledge that for some it's easy to tamp it down in a few months; for others (such as myself and most of the men in my family), it's a life-long struggle.

For me to go from where I am to 'not overweight', would require an extreme supplanting of what I do for a living and/or what I do in my spare time. It has not been, nor will ever be a simple matter of 'put down the fries and hit the treadmill for a few minutes'. I acknowledge that, in theory, if I were to get absolutely serious about getting a fit body; it is technically possible --were I to choose to do it. I choose not to do it. Because I am more fulfilled by the afore mentioned than any amount of exercise or rabbit food I have experienced.

However, we agree, it seems, that 'shaming' someone just because they're overweight -whether they've embraced it or still struggle with it- is not helpful.

P.S. with regard to running. I've always abhorred it with utter passion. It's just the fucking shins, man. If you ever see me running, my only advice is that you run with me; because some scary shit is coming the other way.
 

giles

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I'm fine with concluding our little tangent here. Just wanted to point out
senordesol said:
P.S. with regard to running. I've always abhorred it with utter passion. It's just the fucking shins, man. If you ever see me running, my only advice is that you run with me; because some scary shit is coming the other way.
that is a seriously funny way to put it and gave me a good laugh ;)
 

senordesol

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giles said:
I'm fine with concluding our little tangent here. Just wanted to point out
senordesol said:
P.S. with regard to running. I've always abhorred it with utter passion. It's just the fucking shins, man. If you ever see me running, my only advice is that you run with me; because some scary shit is coming the other way.
that is a seriously funny way to put it and gave me a good laugh ;)
At least laughter burns calories :p
 

bjj hero

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senordesol said:
You only make 'massive gains' if it works out; if you're wiling to endure the pain and frustration for long enough. Not everyone is. Not everyone has the discipline. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice the other things they love just for the sake of picking up heavy iron plates just to put them back down.

Just because it 'can' be done, doesn't mean people want it done. And it doesn't make them any lesser for not doing it.
The only reason it would not work out is if you don't try. You say not everyone has discipline, what you mean is not everyone wants to do it. There is no superpower needed to go and exercise, you just have to do it. There is also far more available than lifting plates. If you hate exercise its because you've not found the right thing for you. Get out and try stuff.

If people don't want to do it thats fine if you deal with the consequences, rather than my taxes and shared resources being used to treat self inflicted problems.
 

senordesol

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bjj hero said:
senordesol said:
You only make 'massive gains' if it works out; if you're wiling to endure the pain and frustration for long enough. Not everyone is. Not everyone has the discipline. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice the other things they love just for the sake of picking up heavy iron plates just to put them back down.

Just because it 'can' be done, doesn't mean people want it done. And it doesn't make them any lesser for not doing it.
The only reason it would not work out is if you don't try. You say not everyone has discipline, what you mean is not everyone wants to do it. There is no superpower needed to go and exercise, you just have to do it. There is also far more available than lifting plates. If you hate exercise its because you've not found the right thing for you. Get out and try stuff.

If people don't want to do it thats fine if you deal with the consequences, rather than my taxes and shared resources being used to treat self inflicted problems.
I pay taxes too, Jack, and the medical system doesn't exist to judge people.

So take some of your own advice and suck it up.
 

bjj hero

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Vegosiux said:
Good that those with unhealthy lifestyles exist, so that we have somebody to hate on and feel better about ourselves, ainnit?

But, I stand behind what I said; if we're just going to talk about why other people suck compared to the grandiose image of excellence and perfection that is me, and how it's those other people that need to change and the world will be a better place, well...we're not going to get very far with that kind of rhetoric.
So no one is responsible for their actions and nothing should be said?

I do not feel better when I see someone whos over eating means they need thousands of pounds worth of treatment for something that was entirely avoidable when others are on waiting list for much needed treatment.

I'm not perfect but when I've seen problems arising I've addressed them and made changes. No one wakes up 25 stone. At some point you must be 15 stone and think "things are getting out of hand here, I should do something about this". Becoming obese is not an over night thing.
 

FavouriteDream

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Obesity is different. Alcoholism is glorified. So is drug addiction. Everyone knows these are horrible things, but we watch films about them - we idolise celebrities who battle with them. They are "rock and roll" problems. Yes, they're destructive but they're edgy and rebellious.

Obesity is on the same level as those as far as health problems and self destruction is concerned, but it's viewed very differently. When you talk about your "struggle with obesity" people kind of chuckle and roll their eyes. No one really gives a toss. Sure, they'll take the piss out of you when you walk past - but they won't actually view your need for help.

That's my view on it. I'm not obese and I don't have any obese family or friends, so I may be wrong about this.
 

bjj hero

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senordesol said:
I pay taxes too, Jack, and the medical system doesn't exist to judge people.

So take some of your own advice and suck it up.
But it does. In England NICE decides if drugs and treatments are effective and cost effective. Need that life saving cancer drug but NICE decided it costs far too much for the gains? Then its judged you shouldn't have it.

With this coming up more and more then the onus should be shifted onto the individual when ailments are self inflicted. When do people stop being responsible for their own actions? Obesity is entirely avoidable and the illnesses related to it are sucking up more and more resources that are needed elsewhere.

If I "needed" a gastric band op I would be devastated that I had taken £5000+ from the public to fix something Ive done, that was completely avoidable, when others are waiting for cancer treatment etc. The World Health Organisation says that the total health care costs of a person with diabetes in the USA are between twice and three times those for people without the condition. They're taking up the resources of 2 or 3 people because of a lifestyle choice. It's a shared pool so others are waiting longer or doing without life saving or changing treatment because others refuse to stop eating or taking a little exercise.
 

MrHide-Patten

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If a guy/woman goes on to me repeatedly about my weight with critical words/absolute dickishness and after being told to lay off, continues to persist, then I'm fulling in my rights to smother them to death with my ass.

When my weight starts to severely impact my way of life, then I'll take measures to rectify it. The main difference being, that it would have been my choice, and ultimately that's what accomplishments are made of, not because somebody kept on droning to me.