Fat shaming vs. necessary dialouge on obesity

FavouriteDream

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bjj hero said:
If I "needed" a gastric band op I would be devastated that I had taken £5000+ from the public to fix something Ive done, that was completely avoidable, when others are waiting for cancer treatment etc.
That's just rhetoric though. Cancer patients aren't missing out on treatment because someone just needed a gastric band.
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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Just fit protein into every meal and work out. A lot of people seem to think getting healthy involves eating nothing but salad and doing hours of work on the treadmill.

Stop focusing on the treadmill so much. A lot of unfit people think they have to run hours on the treadmill when you are carrying so much useless weight on your body that it's more than soldiers carry on their backs during runs.

Lifts some weights! In a lot of types of weight training you will be in the same position as a skinny guy with just as much muscle as you. Do some body weight exercises and invest in a trainer for a few sessions to teach you how to properly work out with your body if you can.

Count your calories, record what you eat in a book and weigh yourself daily for a couple of weeks and figure out how many calories you need to roughly stay at your weight now and just have a little less to lose weight, continually lowering again as you reach plateaus. don't go cold turkey straight into nothing but salads this will make your body scream and deny you the energy needed for those workouts.

I am amazed at the willpower of fat people who manage to do hours of cardio on nothing but salad even when they break before too long. If you were more informed you could be In great shape with that determination.

The biggest barrier between most people and weightloss is misinformation from the media.
 

senordesol

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bjj hero said:
senordesol said:
I pay taxes too, Jack, and the medical system doesn't exist to judge people.

So take some of your own advice and suck it up.
But it does. In England NICE decides if drugs and treatments are effective and cost effective. Need that life saving cancer drug but NICE decided it costs far too much for the gains? Then its judged you shouldn't have it.

With this coming up more and more then the onus should be shifted onto the individual when ailments are self inflicted. When do people stop being responsible for their own actions? Obesity is entirely avoidable and the illnesses related to it are sucking up more and more resources that are needed elsewhere.

If I "needed" a gastric band op I would be devastated that I had taken £5000+ from the public to fix something Ive done, that was completely avoidable, when others are waiting for cancer treatment etc. The World Health Organisation says that the total health care costs of a person with diabetes in the USA are between twice and three times those for people without the condition. They're taking up the resources of 2 or 3 people because of a lifestyle choice. It's a shared pool so others are waiting longer or doing without life saving or changing treatment because others refuse to stop eating or taking a little exercise.
What you said in no way correlates to what I said. The judgment comes for if the treatment will be effective, not how the person came by it.

That said, if you're arguing that it's a social issue; then it should be treated like a social issue --not a personal one.

There are those whose life circumstances make proper diet and exercise difficult. If you can't admit this, we'll go nowhere. If you can, then might I suggest some actual -workable- solutions rather than sitting atop your glass steed shouting "I did it, why can't you, fatso?"

Higher emphasis on exercise during school, for instance. Rather than treating school more and more like a baren prison as kids get older; make sure that various equipment is readily available should the kids need it. You look at elementary schools, and they've got all sorts of play structures and things for the little ones to stay active on. Get to high school and you're lucky if you see a single basketball court. Is that worth your precious tax money?

How about including a gym membership as part of company benefits? I'm sure lots of athletic clubs would fall over themselves to take on a hundred new memberships even at 60% of the price.

See where I'm going with this? See how I focus on giving people as many ways out of the problem as possible rather than assuming that your way is the best way? See how these ways make no assumptions about life circumstance about anybody, but gives those with difficult life circumstances a little bit of a lifeline?

But it's just not as fun if you can't feel 'better' than someone, is it?
 

zelda2fanboy

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I'm reminded of a Mitch Hedberg quote: "Alcoholism is the only disease you can get yelled at for having." There is no point in any level of cruelty towards anyone to encourage a behavior. I don't know of anyone who has ever treated me like shit whose advice I've taken very seriously, let alone on what I like to eat. Everyone knows what causes weight gain and what causes weight loss. If you decide to offer unsolicited opinions on someone else's body, you're pretty much going to be seen as an asshole no matter what you say and no matter how noble your intentions are. Just always take into account what you find desirable because it might end up sounding like you merely don't like people who are different than you.
 

Vegosiux

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bjj hero said:
So no one is responsible for their actions and nothing should be said?

I do not feel better when I see someone whos over eating means they need thousands of pounds worth of treatment for something that was entirely avoidable when others are on waiting list for much needed treatment.
There's a time and place for saying things. Also context, if you're only going to talk about (or imply) how "those people" should just "flip a switch but they're just too lazy to do that", then I'm not really going to think you have public good in mind while doing so.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "much needed treatment". You talking about triage/priority here? Or are you talking about other "avoidable" problems that doctors usually treat?

I mean, for example, in the city I live in, the hospitals usually have spikes of patients in times when the ground's freshly frozen and people get injured, or if there's a big festival going on and people get drunk and rowdy. Avoidable, too.

But I don't see a difference between a case of cardiovascular complications because of obesity and a case of cardiovascular problems because of the person being a burnt-out workaholic. Or a case of cancer because of smoking and a case of cancer because of staying in the midday sun too much.

I'm not perfect but when I've seen problems arising I've addressed them and made changes. No one wakes up 25 stone. At some point you must be 15 stone and think "things are getting out of hand here, I should do something about this". Becoming obese is not an over night thing.
It's true, it's not, but it rarely exists in a vacuum, too. Also, it's a health problem and should be treated as such. The moment you start acting as if there's some sort of a character flaw, or even that "They are being supported by mah munny!", that's a tad conceited.

To say nothing about how quickly we'll be running out of manpower if we decide to screw anyone who's dealing with an "avoidable" chronic problem. Chronically depressed people, alcoholics, workaholics, addicts...all those problems are avoidable, but we're kind of at the point where it's mostly accepted that just going full drill sergeant mode on them isn't going to give desired results, so taxpayer money goes towards dealing with them.
 

bjj hero

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FavouriteDream said:
bjj hero said:
If I "needed" a gastric band op I would be devastated that I had taken £5000+ from the public to fix something Ive done, that was completely avoidable, when others are waiting for cancer treatment etc.
That's just rhetoric though. Cancer patients aren't missing out on treatment because someone just needed a gastric band.
You cannot see that in a system with a fixed budget that a large increase in spending on one area will affect the rest of the service? Waiting times are going up, although there are lots of pressures feeding into this. Obesity has been rising as is predicted to go up further with spending linked to it rising rapidly.
 

Lotet

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bjj hero said:
With this coming up more and more then the onus should be shifted onto the individual when ailments are self inflicted. When do people stop being responsible for their own actions? Obesity is entirely avoidable and the illnesses related to it are sucking up more and more resources that are needed elsewhere.
Damn man, I've haven't gone to hospital since I got asthma when I was a kid and I should feel bad about the effect I have on society because I eat bad food? What did I do? The only medical conditions I have (asthma and dermatitis) are shared with my brother, the second skinniest person I know, the only skinnier person is medically too skinny and stuffs his face with KFC and is still skinny. I hope that after paying taxes for decades I can get treatment if something happens, so I hope someone like you won't get into a position where you can cause some real damage.
 

bjj hero

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senordesol said:
What you said in no way correlates to what I said. The judgment comes for if the treatment will be effective, not how the person came by it.

That said, if you're arguing that it's a social issue; then it should be treated like a social issue --not a personal one.

There are those whose life circumstances make proper diet and exercise difficult. If you can't admit this, we'll go nowhere. If you can, then might I suggest some actual -workable- solutions rather than sitting atop your glass steed shouting "I did it, why can't you, fatso?"

Higher emphasis on exercise during school, for instance. Rather than treating school more and more like a baren prison as kids get older; make sure that various equipment is readily available should the kids need it. You look at elementary schools, and they've got all sorts of play structures and things for the little ones to stay active on. Get to high school and you're lucky if you see a single basketball court. Is that worth your precious tax money?

How about including a gym membership as part of company benefits? I'm sure lots of athletic clubs would fall over themselves to take on a hundred new memberships even at 60% of the price.

See where I'm going with this? See how I focus on giving people as many ways out of the problem as possible rather than assuming that your way is the best way? See how these ways make no assumptions about life circumstance about anybody, but gives those with difficult life circumstances a little bit of a lifeline?

But it's just not as fun if you can't feel 'better' than someone, is it?
Personally I was never sporty at school, I was the skinny sickly kid. I got into fitness when I lived in America and I noticed my waistline spreading. Ive never looked back. My friend did something similar when he got his first desk job. He noticed what was happening and cut his portions while running 4 times a week.

I would support all of the things you mentioned but I also think people need to take more responsibility. I can only talk about where I live but things like missed medical appointments, there should be a charge for these. They push up waiting times and cost a fortune. If this is you then your actions are having a negative impact on those around you. In Wales its currently being raised that those needing medical treatment because of alcohol related problems should contribute towards it as its self inflicted. I agree with this but would broarden it to other self inflicted ailments caused by lifestyle. You brake it, you pay for it as it were. Youre big enough to make the mess then youre big enough to sort it out.

Its not either or, you can have carrot and stick. And the carrot isn't always enough. My employer will subsidise gym memberships but not everyone takes them up on it as it involves effort to attend the gym. Myself and others I work with have managed to turn exercise into an enjoyable paid activity on works time. It's extra work but its worth it.
 

FavouriteDream

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bjj hero said:
FavouriteDream said:
bjj hero said:
If I "needed" a gastric band op I would be devastated that I had taken £5000+ from the public to fix something Ive done, that was completely avoidable, when others are waiting for cancer treatment etc.
That's just rhetoric though. Cancer patients aren't missing out on treatment because someone just needed a gastric band.
You cannot see that in a system with a fixed budget that a large increase in spending on one area will affect the rest of the service? Waiting times are going up, although there are lots of pressures feeding into this. Obesity has been rising as is predicted to go up further with spending linked to it rising rapidly.
Considering the NHS is one of the best health systems in the world, and when compared to other nations it is a shining example of successful and effective health care - I wouldn't worry too much.

Of course there is room for improvement, but this ridiculous strategy of shaming fat people because of their "life choices" have created a strain on the health system and somehow cancer patients are missing out because of them is rude and it is not effective. No one should be made to feel shameful or guilty for seeking out health care. This harmful rhetoric you are spreading does not help treating obesity.

Implying fat people who need health care treatment are somehow screwing over cancer patients is incredibly disrespectful and rude. Everyone deserves health care and someone's previous choices in life are not relevant when it gets to the stage of treatment.
 

bjj hero

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Vegosiux said:
bjj hero said:
So no one is responsible for their actions and nothing should be said?

I do not feel better when I see someone whos over eating means they need thousands of pounds worth of treatment for something that was entirely avoidable when others are on waiting list for much needed treatment.
There's a time and place for saying things. Also context, if you're only going to talk about (or imply) how "those people" should just "flip a switch but they're just too lazy to do that", then I'm not really going to think you have public good in mind while doing so.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "much needed treatment". You talking about triage/priority here? Or are you talking about other "avoidable" problems that doctors usually treat?

I mean, for example, in the city I live in, the hospitals usually have spikes of patients in times when the ground's freshly frozen and people get injured, or if there's a big festival going on and people get drunk and rowdy. Avoidable, too.
I completely agree with the last point. Accident because youre drunk? You need to contribute to the bill. 30 a day habit and lung cancer? Time to put in. STI because you cannot be arsed to wrap it up? Hand in pocket time. Diabetes from cake retention? Gotta give back. Why? because youre an adult and responsible for your actions.

With life style problems then I do have to address it. No one can do it for me so I have to make changes. Call it flipping a switch, making a resolution, being determined or whatever. Unless someone physically starves me I have to control my own weight. Its the same way I figured out I'm a tool when drunk so I stopped drinking. Im far happier for it and have more disposible income to boot.
 

senordesol

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bjj hero said:
Its not either or, you can have carrot and stick. And the carrot isn't always enough. My employer will subsidise gym memberships but not everyone takes them up on it as it involves effort to attend the gym. Myself and others I work with have managed to turn exercise into an enjoyable paid activity on works time. It's extra work but its worth it.
No.

That 'stick' is not yours to wield.

Yours is not to sit in judgement of your fellow man; to deride his priorities through the filter of your own. You help NO ONE by doing this. You change NOTHING by doing this. And history has shown time-and-time again: when you attempt to punish, rather than correct --When you judge with no attempt to understand --When you assume that your way is best and only and that those who do not conform are just 'doing it wrong'; society's problems get worse, not better.

Will there be those who will still be big even if we were to implement counter-obesity measures? Yes. But the over-all situation will improve; making your 'concerns' (such as they are) less valid with each passing day.

BinDipper said:
Fat people look fucking disgusting.
I'm not talking about just chubby or naturally thicker folks.
I'm talking about the fatties, people who's bellies cause an overhang above their genitals, and who's bodies are split into sections like a snowman or a joint of lamb.

REALLY?
YOU'RE PROUD OF LOOKING LIKE THAT?
You're proud of looking like you head fat is slowly consuming your face?
Fine whatever, I wont give her any more shit that the retards who think digging holes in different parts of their face makes them look good.
But this fool actually has the audacity to compare her bullshit excuse for a struggle to that of women's rights.
It's one thing to make bad choices in life, but to be proud of them, and demand respect for them is fucking stupid.

So yeah, be fat all you want, just remember that people with standards wont want to have sex with you and you can't blame them, or society for that because you're fucking disgusting.
Hark! A shining example of what I'm talking about.

Somehow being happy and being overweight cannot be reconciled in this person's limited perceptions and thus he must insult and demean and presume. Because the only way he's happy with fat people existing is if they're fucking miserable. A real class act.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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there are subreddits on reddit dedicated to hating fat people....like who the fuck does that? who the hell puts that much effort into hating a certain subset of people? I honestly suspect part of it is wanting to feel "better" than others

we shame, dehumanize and make fun of fat people all the time and we think its acceptible because we see it as "self inflicted"

its disgusting really

case in point:

BinDipper said:
But this fool actually has the audacity to compare her bullshit excuse for a struggle to that of women's rights.
It's one thing to make bad choices in life, but to be proud of them, and demand respect for them is fucking stupid.
.
a fat people feels good about themsevles...thats like worse than Hitler or something huh?

there are more body types other than "stick thin" of varying degress...while some people are just obese body acceptance does come under womans, notice how majority of the fat hate here is targeted towards women?
 

Lotet

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BinDipper said:
Fat people look fucking disgusting.
I'm not talking about just chubby or naturally thicker folks.
I'm talking about the fatties, people who's bellies cause an overhang above their genitals, and who's bodies are split into sections like a snowman or a joint of lamb.

REALLY?
YOU'RE PROUD OF LOOKING LIKE THAT?
You're proud of looking like you head fat is slowly consuming your face?
Fine whatever, I wont give her any more shit that the retards who think digging holes in different parts of their face makes them look good.
But this fool actually has the audacity to compare her bullshit excuse for a struggle to that of women's rights.
It's one thing to make bad choices in life, but to be proud of them, and demand respect for them is fucking stupid.

So yeah, be fat all you want, just remember that people with standards wont want to have sex with you and you can't blame them, or society for that because you're fucking disgusting.
Hohoho, you sound like one of the puny 'bullies' I had in school. I never understood why they pestered me so. Even more confounding that I would get in trouble when I sneak attacked and crushed them.

Oh woe was me, trolled by leetle people, ignored when I plead for help and punished by the teachers when I helped myself. The life of the biggest, fattest kid in my grade from 1 to 12, people couldn't see me as the victim I guess.

I never did ask why they annoyed me. Maybe you can tell me why they felt the desire to make an enemy of me.
 

AJ_Lethal

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Vault101 said:
there are subreddits on reddit dedicated to hating fat people....like who the fuck does that? who the hell puts that much effort into hating a certain subset of people? I honestly suspect part of it is wanting to feel "better" than others

we shame, dehumanize and make fun of fat people all the time and we think its acceptible because we see it as "self inflicted"

its disgusting really

case in point:

BinDipper said:
But this fool actually has the audacity to compare her bullshit excuse for a struggle to that of women's rights.
It's one thing to make bad choices in life, but to be proud of them, and demand respect for them is fucking stupid.
.
a fat people feels good about themsevles...thats like worse than Hitler or something huh?

there are more body types other than "stick thin" of varying degress...while some people are just obese body acceptance does come under womans, notice how majority of the fat hate here is targeted towards women?
If you're talking about r/fatpeoplestories, lemme say the constant in there is that the fat people depicted in there are astonishinly ignorant, lack self-awareness, and are generally unpleasant people to hang around with. Ditto with r/fatlogic.

If anything the existence of those subreddits is a lesson on not to use your conditions as an excuse to be an asshole.
 

senordesol

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AJ_Lethal said:
If you're talking about r/fatpeoplestories, lemme say the constant in there is that the fat people depicted in there are astonishinly ignorant, lack self-awareness, and are generally unpleasant people to hang around with. Ditto with r/fatlogic.

If anything the existence of those subreddits is a lesson on not to use your conditions as an excuse to be an asshole.
Fixed that for you.

Assholes are terrible no matter their fitness level.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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AJ_Lethal said:
If you're talking about r/fatpeoplestories, lemme say the constant in there is that the fat people depicted in there are astonishinly ignorant, lack self-awareness, and are generally unpleasant people to hang around with. Ditto with r/fatlogic.

If anything the existence of those subreddits is a lesson on not to use your conditions as an excuse to be an asshole.
I don't remember which one but I do remember there just being pictures and "OH LOOK AT THIS HOW DISGUSTING LOLOLOLO" and again. aside from the fact that thease things "devolve" into unpleasant BS (the unpopular opinion puffin was essentially racism) the fact they exist and are visit with such enthusiasm...I don't know
 

AJ_Lethal

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senordesol said:
Fixed that for you.
No, you just broke my post for no reason.

Really, some of the stories in there feature downright horrible people. Like this woman [http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/2dg90q/projectham_and_the_assignment_of_doom/] who tried to seduce a MARRIED guy, the guy basically said "I'm not into fat girls, you're a horrible person and for the nth time, I'M FUCKING MARRIED". She then pulls off a tantrum worthy of a Mexican soap opera and started harrassing him. Basically they use their bad health condition as an excuse get away with anything, and that's not cool.

senordesol said:
Assholes are terrible no matter their fitness level.
No shit, dude.
 

senordesol

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AJ_Lethal said:
senordesol said:
Fixed that for you.
No, you just broke my post for no reason.

Really, some of the stories in there feature downright horrible people. Like this woman [http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/2dg90q/projectham_and_the_assignment_of_doom/] who tried to seduce a MARRIED guy, the guy basically said "I'm not into fat girls, you're a horrible person and for the nth time, I'M FUCKING MARRIED". She then pulls off a tantrum worthy of a Mexican soap opera and started harrassing him. Basically they use their bad health condition as an excuse get away with anything, and that's not cool.

senordesol said:
Assholes are terrible no matter their fitness level.
No shit, dude.
How'd she 'get away' with anything?
 

AJ_Lethal

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senordesol said:
AJ_Lethal said:
senordesol said:
Fixed that for you.
No, you just broke my post for no reason.

Really, some of the stories in there feature downright horrible people. Like this woman [http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/2dg90q/projectham_and_the_assignment_of_doom/] who tried to seduce a MARRIED guy, the guy basically said "I'm not into fat girls, you're a horrible person and for the nth time, I'M FUCKING MARRIED". She then pulls off a tantrum worthy of a Mexican soap opera and started harrassing him. Basically they use their bad health condition as an excuse get away with anything, and that's not cool.

senordesol said:
Assholes are terrible no matter their fitness level.
No shit, dude.
How'd she 'get away' with anything?
She didn't because real life, but according to the comments the guy is getting mail hate for the ordeal.