Fat shaming vs. necessary dialouge on obesity

Tien Shen

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The PSA does appear shocking, but it's necessary, no different from the images of black cancerous lungs they paste on cigarette packets. The greatest danger now as I see it is the appearance of those people who embrace their obesity and self-delude themselves into thinking they can stay at that unhealthy weight and still be healthy.

This Australian talk show had a few such characters. You can tell who they are when they are on and start ranting.


The most hilarious bit was at around 42.30 when a clearly obese person asked a girl who had a lap band surgery, whether she's happy with her body now. Said lap band girl had explained that she had a medical condition which would have worsened had she not lost the weight, then she asks questioner the same question. Obese girl goes all defensive and whines about being made to justify her decision to remain fat when she just asked the other girl to do justify her lap band surgery.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Piorn said:
It really boils down to parents not keeping their kids in line, yeah.
If you teach a baby's body to prefer overly sweet, fatty and fiberless food, it's body will demand more and never stop.
If you can't say no to a child, you can't raise a child.
I feel you have the right of it. I've been reading the posts and everyone seems to think obesity is something you catch, like chickenpox or a cold. One day you're a supermodel, you sneeze once and boom! 500+ lbs overweight. Just suddenly!
Obesity is a life long problem, not something people wake up to one day and realize they're overweight. Parents giving kids that second serving of cake/ice cream at a birthday party. Or that 3rd slice of pizza. Or french fries and burgers instead of baked chicken. Or as the PSA showed, giving a crying baby french fries because he won't eat anything else.

When I was a kid, after Trick or Treating on Halloween, my parents took my candy, counted it, gave me 1/3 back and kept the rest to be given out to me as they saw fit. Did I hate it? Yes. But the result was as a 6 year old I didn't eat 4000+ calories of sugar in one hour.

A lot of being obese boils down to what your parents fed you.
 

Booklover13

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giles said:
chikusho said:
Something to remember is that it's almost impossible to be cured from obesity.

The only known ways of curing it is basically surgery, or developing an eating disorder on the opposite side of the spectrum.
People who go from being obese to maintaining a healthy weight are a disappearingly small percentage. In fact, over 80 percent of people who try both with exercise and dieting will weigh more than their starting weight after five years.

That's of course no reason not to make an effort of living healthier. But it's important that people know about this before passing judgement.
Got anything to back that up or are we just making shit up now?
I actually posted an article earlier in this thread that sorta gives a similar statistic. From the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/222S.long

The article abstract notes roughly 20% succeed at long term weight loss "defined as losing at least 10% of initial body weight and maintaining the loss for at least 1 y." This number will of course decrease past the 1 year mark, however interestingly after 2-5 years of successfully maintaining their new weight their odds of lifelong success increases. So while over 80% may not be weighing more they certainly were not successful in there in maintaining weight loss.
 

kennyloo69

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>Guy is 32 years old
>As a kid he's watching Johny Test, which premiered in 2005
>This psa takes place at least 10-15 years in the future
 

Fetzenfisch

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Booklover13 said:
giles said:
chikusho said:
Something to remember is that it's almost impossible to be cured from obesity.

The only known ways of curing it is basically surgery, or developing an eating disorder on the opposite side of the spectrum.
People who go from being obese to maintaining a healthy weight are a disappearingly small percentage. In fact, over 80 percent of people who try both with exercise and dieting will weigh more than their starting weight after five years.

That's of course no reason not to make an effort of living healthier. But it's important that people know about this before passing judgement.
Got anything to back that up or are we just making shit up now?
I actually posted an article earlier in this thread that sorta gives a similar statistic. From the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/222S.long

The article abstract notes roughly 20% succeed at long term weight loss "defined as losing at least 10% of initial body weight and maintaining the loss for at least 1 y." This number will of course decrease past the 1 year mark, however interestingly after 2-5 years of successfully maintaining their new weight their odds of lifelong success increases. So while over 80% may not be weighing more they certainly were not successful in there in maintaining weight loss.
That doesn't mean that there is no way to "cure the disease" aka lose weight. It just means that 80% of people don't have the discipline or the will to do it. They give up and do not maintain what they achieved. no where does it say that the success rate has something to do with biological conditions. This is like saying that only 5% of people who start writing a book actually finish it, so writing a book is impossible. Don't mess up statistics and the facts you want to fortify with them.
I do in fact know that there is a tiny percentage of people who basically can't maintain a normal weight by their own but its far far far away from 80% and lies way nearer to the 1-3% mark

but i still don't see a reason to "shame" people or try to "motivate them" with harsh words. Its their fucking business as long as they are adults.its their choice and their problem alone. let em do whatever they like.
 

GrailSeeker95

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Why should we be denied healthcare? You do know that getting a wheelchair can be considered healthcare, right? For some people (like myself) would doom them to being bedridden for the rest of their lives. You completely missed the mark on that. I hope to God that were making a tasteless joke. I could put that statement under the ignorant category if that were the case.
 

senordesol

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Souther Thorn said:
Because we love you and don't want you to end up being taken from your family in an ambulance or having to go on a drastic program to correct diabetes. That might be your business, but I want you to look at your children (if you have any) your SO (if you have one), and tell them 'I know this is going to be a medical issue at some point, but I'm managing and it's no ones business but my own' and then repeat it if/when you're on a gurney and if/when you're in the hospital.

I think you're worth more than that and I don't even fucking know you.
I hope you think you're worth more than those possible outcomes.
Oh come the fuck on.

You really expect me to believe that 'fat shaming', calling fat people 'pitiful', 'lazy', and 'disgusting blights on society who shouldn't exist' comes from a place of 'love'? Give me a damn break.

Now I know you didn't say that. But there are people on this forum who have, and that is baffling to me. For it would be one thing if they were truly concerned about my health (for whatever reason). It's quite another to be chastised and scorned because I don't conform to someone else's ideal body image and that *because* I don't conform; they're willing to make judgments about me based on that and nothing else.

Countless posters --people who have no idea what I've tried in the past, what my schedule is like now, or what I even do with myself day-to-day-- have been assuring that they have the perfect answer for me.

They don't.

Because their interest is not to advise, but to insist; and that's the goddamn problem. *That* is how I know that 'because we love you' is a bunch of horse puck.

Batou667 said:
Losing weight may not be easy, but it is simple. Eat less, or move more, or ideally both.

Would that change "practically EVERYTHING" about you? If you define yourself primarily by how much you eat and how little you exercise, that's pretty damn sad. Do you consider the volume of food you consume to be a personality trait? One of your defining values? Is it one of the most interesting things about you? If so, that's sad.

Torturing yourself with exhaustive exercise? Oh please, where's that tiny violin when you need it. Firstly, exercise can be anything from hiking to cycling to dancing to martial arts to weightlifting. I guarantee you there's SOMETHING you'd enjoy doing. Secondly, things that are worth doing are seldom fun all the time. Thirdly, a one-hour workout represents 4% of your day - everybody has a spare hour they could be putting to good use.

Yes, being healthy and active is a lifelong pursuit. What were you expecting, a magic pill? Perhaps you should think less in terms of instant gratification?
Hey look, case in point!

See how he insists and assumes almost everything, seeking not once to understand?

Not once does it occur to him that, perhaps, I'm perfectly happy with who I am. That this 'spare' hour he assures me exists might actually be devoted to something I'd rather do otherwise.

Once again, this isn't about whether weight loss is 'possible'. I haven't once said that it's impossible. But (and I have no idea why this is such an alien goddamn concept to people) but just as the amount of work I'd have to do to earn a doctorate (while theoretically possible) is not something I'm willing to do; just so the amount of work history has shown I would have to do to conform with someone else's ideal body is simply not something I'm interested in doing.

But for some reason other people just aren't okay with that. It blows their tiny little minds.
 

Lotet

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archiebawled said:
Batou667 said:
Ah, such reasonable responses. I suppose my weight isn't helping nowadays since I'm not accosted by enemies any more. So I may as well try to do away with it. Plus my feet hurt during Fridays from standing all week.

Frankly, I'm not really worried about my weight, the weight of my brother and my parents when I was born are a decent indicator that I'm not predisposed to high fat, if that's even a real thing. I gained 30Kg over 5 years and lost 8Kg in the past single year without doing anything aside from deciding not to eat fatty foods when I'm bored and such but I still eat bad meals once or twice a week as I feel. So even though I've been fat my whole life, I doubt it's such an astronomical feat for me in particular.

But damn do I hate weight loss regimes. I don't have the willpower/motivation to stay on diet for more than a month, let alone a year.
BinDipper said:
To be proud of being fat is fucking stupid though. It's like being proud of being a smoker, or a drinker, a drug taker or a frequent wanker.
Well, not in my case. Being fat gave me some overwhelming victories in fights. My favorite was when a kid (me grade 12, him 10 or 11) kicked me in the back and he fell over, I loomed over him, held out my hand to lift him up and told him to stop bugging me. It felt good man, in more ways than one.

Though my experience is hardly normal.
 

Piorn

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Silentpony said:
Piorn said:
It really boils down to parents not keeping their kids in line, yeah.
If you teach a baby's body to prefer overly sweet, fatty and fiberless food, it's body will demand more and never stop.
If you can't say no to a child, you can't raise a child.
I feel you have the right of it. I've been reading the posts and everyone seems to think obesity is something you catch, like chickenpox or a cold. One day you're a supermodel, you sneeze once and boom! 500+ lbs overweight. Just suddenly!
Obesity is a life long problem, not something people wake up to one day and realize they're overweight. Parents giving kids that second serving of cake/ice cream at a birthday party. Or that 3rd slice of pizza. Or french fries and burgers instead of baked chicken. Or as the PSA showed, giving a crying baby french fries because he won't eat anything else.

When I was a kid, after Trick or Treating on Halloween, my parents took my candy, counted it, gave me 1/3 back and kept the rest to be given out to me as they saw fit. Did I hate it? Yes. But the result was as a 6 year old I didn't eat 4000+ calories of sugar in one hour.

A lot of being obese boils down to what your parents fed you.
It's a personality building thing too.
My friend's nephew is 5 and isn't overweight or anything, but he literally eats french fries exclusively. His parents never challenge him on that, and he won't try anything new. He just has to make an angry face at the well prepared food they give him and bam, instant french fries any time of the day.
What is that kid supposed to grow up into?
 

Batou667

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senordesol said:
Hey look, case in point!

See how he insists and assumes almost everything, seeking not once to understand?

Not once does it occur to him that, perhaps, I'm perfectly happy with who I am. That this 'spare' hour he assures me exists might actually be devoted to something I'd rather do otherwise.

Once again, this isn't about whether weight loss is 'possible'. I haven't once said that it's impossible. But (and I have no idea why this is such an alien goddamn concept to people) but just as the amount of work I'd have to do to earn a doctorate (while theoretically possible) is not something I'm willing to do; just so the amount of work history has shown I would have to do to conform with someone else's ideal body is simply not something I'm interested in doing.

But for some reason other people just aren't okay with that. It blows their tiny little minds.
To be fair, you're shifting the goalposts somewhat. You were making weight loss out to be some kind of insurmountable, Herculean task that would involve erasing every aspect of your current being and essentially becoming a different person to attain a temporary state of good-looking agony (or some such hyperbole), and now you've switched your stance to "I don't want to, and you can't make me".

And that's fine. You want to sit on your butt? Great. Love eating? Who doesn't. Don't want to exercise? Your prerogative.

But if people make silly statements about how it's impossible for the average Joe to lose weight, and the only people who can look like movie stars are genetically-gifted rich people, with personal trainers, and no lives outside of exercise, and they probably use steroids, and all their pictures are Photoshopped anyway, and they're not even really happy... then I reserve the right to point out how silly that kind of thinking is. Weight loss is attainable for the vast majority of people and it doesn't need to be painful, difficult, expensive or unpleasant.
 

Vegosiux

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Batou667 said:
But if people make silly statements about how it's impossible for the average Joe to lose weight, and the only people who can look like movie stars are genetically-gifted rich people, with personal trainers, and no lives outside of exercise, and they probably use steroids, and all their pictures are Photoshopped anyway, and they're not even really happy... then I reserve the right to point out how silly that kind of thinking is. Weight loss is attainable for the vast majority of people and it doesn't need to be painful, difficult, expensive or unpleasant.
Who are these "people" you are talking about, pray tell? And if they're not here, why are you gossiping about them behind their backs? That's rude.
 

bjj hero

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senordesol said:
No.

That 'stick' is not yours to wield.

Yours is not to sit in judgement of your fellow man; to deride his priorities through the filter of your own. You help NO ONE by doing this. You change NOTHING by doing this. And history has shown time-and-time again: when you attempt to punish, rather than correct --When you judge with no attempt to understand --When you assume that your way is best and only and that those who do not conform are just 'doing it wrong'; society's problems get worse, not better.
We do it all the time. If I drive a big ass car thats terrible for the environment, my road tax is higher. This is nudging me towards a smaller car. Lifes full of theses sort of sticks. If I choose to drive without a seatbelt on and get caught Ill be fined and my car insurance premium goes up. Thats a big stick. "But Im not hurting anyone, its my choice and Im happy with it". The policeman will have none of that as collectively we have to pay for my lifestyle choice when Im seriously maimed in a car accident with no belt. The same can be said of riding a motor cycle without a helmet. Who does it affect except me? Why isnt it my choice to have my vision unhindered and be free of helmet hair? The adverts saying youll die without a belt on are the carrot. The fines are the stick.

The NHS takes the same amount of money from you in taxes whether youre looking after yourself and rarely see NHS staff or driving yourself to expensive treatment and an early grave. If I willfully smoke 50 a day knowing its harmful and surprise, I then have lung problems because of it then why shouldnt I be responsible for the treatment?

I feel far more strongly about air fare being the same despite the weight... Our baggage is discriminated against on weight with no issues.
 

asap

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Personally I do think its a very simple issue, just reduce energy intake or increase output. Calorie counting is very easy and can help people realize that the sausage roll in the morning is causing them a lot of trouble. It is definitely a shame that people are fat. It makes them look really ugly on top of the health issues.

I suppose at the end of the day it all comes down to self control and honestly when I look a somebody who is clearly unhealthy fat I do think less of them as a person since they are lacking discipline, not just because they are less attractive.

Also broccoli is beautiful.
 

Batou667

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Vegosiux said:
Who are these "people" you are talking about, pray tell? And if they're not here, why are you gossiping about them behind their backs? That's rude.
I take it from your sly and coquettish intimation, that you're mischievously (but charmingly) pressing me for examples? In return, I could ask the converse: do you believe the following claims not to be commonplace as excuses?

- It's my genetics.
- I have an overactive thyroid.
- I don't overeat, yet I'm putting on weight!
- 80%/90%/99% of diets fail, and in fact yo-yo dieting tends to leave people heavier than they were to begin with.
- My metabolism makes it impossible to lose weight.
- When you restrict calories, your body goes into starvation mode, making it impossible to lose more weight.
- The BMI scale doesn't work for body builders, so that means it's universally bunk, and the fact that my BMI is in the Obese range can be discounted as meaningless.
- I've decided to just listen to my body's needs and eat and move intuitively.
- It's possible to be obese and healthy, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
- I'm too poor to buy nutritious food, I have no choice but to eat junk food and fast food.
- I don't have enough time to prepare meals from scratch, I have no choice but to (ditto)
- Don't you dare point out my size/weight, even if you have the best intentions in the world it cripples my self-esteem and I have no choice but to comfort-binge. Ergo all PSAs linked to diet, exercise, or reducing obesity levels are literally bullying.
- I'm just big-boned!

The Fat Acceptance and HAES movements are positively rife with bunkum like the above, and that's before they throw their poor attempts at presenting reasoning and evidence out of the window and revert to accusations of health-shaming, body-fascism and similar feminist-inspired concepts; appeals to decorum and calls to respect fat people as a historically marginalised group, same as racial minorities; spiteful attacks on thin people, and redefining the meaning of words like "real" and "curves".

There are quite a few examples of the above fallacies - or variations on them - being invoked in this thread. I'd rather not quote every last one here because it'd look like I was singling out individuals and my inbox would be full for days, but obviously I took issue with what Sensordol wrote in post 32.
 

Vegosiux

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Batou667 said:
Vegosiux said:
Who are these "people" you are talking about, pray tell? And if they're not here, why are you gossiping about them behind their backs? That's rude.
I take it from your sly and coquettish intimation, that you're mischievously (but charmingly) pressing me for examples? In return, I could ask the converse: do you believe the following claims not to be commonplace as excuses?

*rest of post*
I never pressed an overweight person on the reasons for why they're overweight, so I haven't the faintest clue what their explanations are. Nor do I go out of my way to look them, their organizations or communities up online, so no, no explanations received from that either. Nor do I look up the "Fat Acceptance Movement" because frankly I don't care about most movements, and there's no chapter anywhere close to where I live, so I don't run into them. I just care about the fact that someone being bigger than you doesn't give you a right to be a dick to them.

All I know is that they have reasons and that I don't know anyone's reasons, because I simply don't care enough about the issue. But since I'm not a complete misanthrope, I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt. Or maybe I'm just doing that because we can't even agree what "fat" means whenever such a discussion starts. BMI is a lousy measure, since excessive fitness (yes, I used those words in the same sentence) will also result in an abnormally high BMI...
 

renegade7

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Wow, a Youtuber with a smart idea!

"Yes, this video's real purpose is to scare people into being healthy. Do you know why? Because being nice isn't cutting it."

Look guys, there is no way around this: whether it's your decision or not, if you don't take care of your body then your body won't take care of you. It takes 0 effort to control what and how much you eat. None, in fact, you'd probably spend LESS time and money avoiding junk. And even though the results aren't instant, 30 minutes of moderate exercise a day is all it takes. If you don't have 30 minutes, then make time: it only takes 3 weeks to permanently make something a part of your routine.

You don't need help. You have the time. You don't need to spend money on equipment, or trainers, or special food. You know EXACTLY what you need to do: it's no simpler than "Eat less, exercise more." I came down to a healthy, even athletic weight, from near-morbid obesity in under two years, while taking 20 credit hour semesters (maintaining a 3.75 GPA to keep my scholarship) and working two jobs to pay for college. And yes, everything in my life improved after that, you're damn right I am now "thin privileged". I earned that: what's your excuse?

It's not complicated. Sure, it's your choice if you choose not to stay healthy...but it's also your choice to change and BECOME healthy. Maybe not an easy choice if you've been "big" your entire life. As one other commenter said, it's like quitting smoking. Making a change that big is hard. It probably won't be fun. But here's what you get for that effort:

-You'll have more energy
-You'll be more attractive (Yes people, deal with it. Being fat, or big, or curvy, or whatever you want to call it, is not attractive, nor will any amount of ranting on "This is thin privilege" change that)
-You'll be more active
-You'll be more productive
-You'll sleep better
-You'll have more healthy years
-You'll spend less on medicine (and if you're in a single-payer country, and I'll get to this in a second, you won't burden your fellow citizens with the *weight* of extra taxes, hyuck hyuck)
-You'll spend less on food
-You'll be a happier person
-You get to raise a big, fat (metaphorically, of course), flying middle finger to the junk food companies. That McDonald's that drove a small local restaurant out of business? Yea, fuck you! That industrial farming operation that put a family that owned a farm for four generations out of business? Fuck you too!

I also firmly believe there exists a moral obligation to be healthy. First, as society moves towards single-payer health care, every medical procedure doesn't cost YOU money, it costs EVERYONE money. Meanwhile, there might be an underfunded school somewhere, or a library needing to be built, or a student who needs a federal grant to go to college, or a police department that can't keep people safe because it's underfunded. And you? You're EATING that money. Hope it tastes good. If not for yourself, do it for the rest of us.

And of course, there's the environment. Do you know what the junk food and fast food industries are doing to this planet? Well, somewhere between a quarter and a third of all global warming is due to methane from livestock, red meat (cows and pigs) being the greatest offender. Simply reducing your red meat consumption wouldn't just benefit your own health, it would benefit the entire planet. Same with, heaven forbid, walking somewhere or riding a bike instead of driving (you even save gas money). And the additional crop production that has to happen to supply the junk food industry isn't helping matters either: habitat destruction and nutrient pollution (aka eutrophication, due to fertilizer runoff) are two of the biggest drivers of the current mass extinction. And maybe you don't believe in that. Fine. If not for the rest of us, do it for yourself.

By choosing not to do it at all, you're putting your own want to eat a Big Mac and watch TV all day (which you probably won't even particularly enjoy) above the real needs of others. So yea, I'm going to be mean about it! If the government is going to use my money, I want it put to good use. I live in the environment, and I want it to stay in a good condition, I want there still to be beautiful places in the world that haven't been razed to put in corn fields. The solution to all the problems of health, the environment, and even the economy that are due to the obesity epidemic and its various causes could very well start to be implemented TODAY, but only if you choose to help.

Shaming is not the opposite of acceptance and support. Telling you the truth isn't an insult, however uncomfortable that truth might be. If you're fat, and you've got a problem with that, you've no one to blame but yourself. But, lest you consider me hateful and negative, let me say that that is not at all the attitude I want to project. I'm not "shaming" you for being fat, as though fatness is a fundamental element of your being and until you cease to be fat you are a lesser human being. I am trying to say, without sugarcoating it (no pun intended...well, maybe just a little), that you CAN improve, and for the benefit of yourself and everyone else, SHOULD. Maybe some nastiness and straight talk will provide some motivation and gravitas where this country's wishy-washy health education system failed to do so.
 

Vegosiux

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renegade7 said:
You don't need help. You have the time. You don't need to spend money on equipment, or trainers, or special food. You know EXACTLY what you need to do: it's no simpler than "Eat less, exercise more." I came down to a healthy, even athletic weight, from near-morbid obesity in under two years, while taking 20 credit hour semesters (maintaining a 3.75 GPA to keep my scholarship) and working two jobs to pay for college.

You have got to be kidding me. This is what the entire build-up was about?

And yes, everything in my life improved after that, you're damn right I am now "thin privileged". I earned that: what's your excuse?
You think this gets you into the privileged club of thin people? Sorry, only us people who have always been thin get to have that privilege ;)