Fat shaming vs. necessary dialouge on obesity

ILikeEggs

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chikusho said:
Actually, it refers to the restriction of calories in order to lose weight. And its conclusion is that in many cases, not going on a diet is actually healthier for you than going on a diet. Some of which including studies and programs including exercise, even though they didn't look at that particular thing.

Here's the whole thing.
http://motivatedandfit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Diets_dont_work.pdf

Oh, and here's another thing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1580453

One more thing!
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/5/579.full

It's completetly possible to keep off a small amount of weight for an extended period of time, but people who actually get to and maintain a healthy weight are like unicorns. Thin, sexy unicorns.
http://fatfu.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/weight-watchers/

No, the problem is that your body is going to tell you that it's starving until it regains all the lost weight. At that point, all you can do is develop a crippling fear of unhealthy foods to scare yourself out of eating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&
You still haven't gotten past the fallacious assumption that a "diet" must consist of starving yourself on a daily caloric intake that's half(or less) than the daily recommended amount. You also fallaciously assume that quantity of food eaten, rather than type, and quality is all that matters.

If you're following the USDA food pyramid while on one of these so-called "diets" you claim are terrible for maintenance of a healthy weight, you're doing it completely wrong.

This link might help you understand better: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/if-low-carb-eating-is-so-effective-why-are-people-still-overweight

An excerpt from that article:

The formal recommendation of the USDA, AHA, AMA, ADA, and others actually tell us to eat the foods that make approximately two-thirds of us overweight.

Try asking your doctor for help, and you're likely told to eat less food, eat less fat, eat more grains, and exercise more, stupid.

Since approximately 1972, U.S. food policy has almost monotonically been shifting further and further towards all but making it impossible to avoid carbohydrates. Countless books have been written about this topic from many levels from agricultural subsidies to the lobbying powers of those who sell sugar.
Eating 100 grams of carbs will always leave you feeling hungrier than eating 100 grams of fat or protein. Compounding that problem, eating 100 grams of carbs in the absence of low to moderate exercise will cause you to gain far more weight than eating 100 grams of fat or protein.
So logically the takeaway from this would be: Stop calorie restricting yourself on food that (a)makes you fat, (b)can be nutritionally deficient, and (c)leaves you feeling hungry, and prone to binging later. In other words, stop eating over 100 grams of carbohydrates/sugar a day, exercise moderately(something as simple as walking), eat more healthy fats and protein, and see how difficult it is to maintain a healthy weight.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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About the PSA: In the style of Family Guy, I'll say


And no, I do not see the fat shaming here. As Kevin Spacey said it in Se7en, sometimes you have to hit people with a sledgehammer to get their attention.

About the issue itself: Look, genetic predisposition means what kind of body type you have (how quickly you will gain fat and muscle, how quickly you will burn alcohol etc.). It does not mean you're inevitably bound to be obese with nothing you can do about it, and it's not an excuse. I said this before in another thread, but the choice to neglect and ignore is the easiest one to make. The choice to grab that chocolate bar at the counter while shopping for groceries. The choice to eat at McDonald's instead of making your own meals, or even choosing to eat at Subway instead. The choice to continue playing Xbox instead of going jogging even if you planned to. I have a chubby side from my mother's side of my family, and have to constantly be aware of my weight lest I slip into obesity.

But with that said, I don't have the heart to tell fat people that they should exercise more. In my hobbies I sometimes see people who take up more than one seat on the bus, and as someone who's struggled with self-esteem issues in the past (and still am) I can imagine what looking in the mirror must be like for those people.

As a final note: fat kids just make me sad. And I don't mean chubby kids, I mean those unfortunate children with jiggling fat folds at the age of ten. To me there is no excuse for your kids to be that fat.
 

chikusho

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Batou667 said:
Citation pls?
I've linked plenty of studies previously in this thread. Feel free to check them out.

Archiebawled, yet again, responded better than I could have to this. Worth noting that phenotypes aren't just the result of genetics, and include environmental factors and behaviour - i.e., everything I mentioned before about "fat running in the family" not necessarily being genetic still stands.
Semantics notwhithstanding, the results remain the same.


Again, citation please, and anyway genetics aren't destiny. Some people might find it harder to stick to a caloric deficit, but hard =/= impossible.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/diet-fitness/scientists-obese-have-higher-levels-hunger-hormone-their-blood-f6C10639235

I'm not sure what "food insecure" means
Yet it remains a 2 second google search away.

chikusho said:
For someone to eat the same as all the others, there has to be food. What the hell are you talking about?
Ok, I should have said "Has the same diet as all the others", whether that means subsisting off a very calorie-restricted diet, long periods of outright fasting, whatever. Point still stands. If you want to utterly disprove me, just find one picture of a famine where there is a fat person who has undergone the same hardship but hasn't lost weight.
Your argument logically disproves itself. How would it be possible to find a study of people reacting differently to food where there is hardly any food?
 

RealRT

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Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
 

Fyrana

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RealRT said:
Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
I am sorry, but that is a bullshit excuse. I also had the same issue and for a while I decided to think "oh, well there isn't much I can do about it." Then once I reached 327 lbs, I decided that enough is enough. I started to eat healthy and exercise on a daily basis. I am now down to 209 and feeling much better. Last I remember, testosterone is not linked to eating poorly/having large portions/not exercising.
 

Ninmecu

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Fyrana said:
RealRT said:
Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
I am sorry, but that is a bullshit excuse. I also had the same issue and for a while I decided to think "oh, well there isn't much I can do about it." Then once I reached 327 lbs, I decided that enough is enough. I started to eat healthy and exercise on a daily basis. I am now down to 209 and feeling much better. Last I remember, testosterone is not linked to eating poorly/having large portions/not exercising.
It is however linked to not ingesting enough Dietary Fat and an excess of sugary substances. So there's that.
 

Olas

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They're both pretty much pointless. You're not going to be telling the obese person anything that they don't already know. If anything they probably know more about the complications and repercussions of obesity than you do because it's something they actually have to think about and deal with every day. It's like trying to tell a cancer patient how bad cancer is and how much chemotherapy sucks.

There are things you can do for someone to help them lose weight, but just nagging or "having a dialogue" isn't going to make them suddenly change their way of life.
 

RealRT

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Fyrana said:
RealRT said:
Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
I am sorry, but that is a bullshit excuse. I also had the same issue and for a while I decided to think "oh, well there isn't much I can do about it." Then once I reached 327 lbs, I decided that enough is enough. I started to eat healthy and exercise on a daily basis. I am now down to 209 and feeling much better. Last I remember, testosterone is not linked to eating poorly/having large portions/not exercising.
Last I remember, testosterone is directly linked to burning fat.
 

Batou667

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chikusho said:
I've linked plenty of studies previously in this thread. Feel free to check them out.
Cool, I'll just use my powers of telepathy to select the correct link and turn to the relevant passage.

chikusho said:
Semantics notwhithstanding, the results remain the same.
It's not semantics, because there's a world of difference between "fat because genetics" and "fat because of environment, culture, poverty and/or ingrained eating habits", and correspondingly how (indeed if) we could counteract that.

chikusho said:
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/diet-fitness/scientists-obese-have-higher-levels-hunger-hormone-their-blood-f6C10639235
Thanks. But let's recap the key points of that article:
- Around 1 in 6 people may be genetically predisposed (not 40%+, which is the current level of obesity in the US).
- A predisposition to obesity isn't a guarantee of obesity nor is it the same as saying "it can't be avoided". Quite the opposite, somebody with a predisposition to a health problem should take steps to avoid it.
- Production of the "hunger hormone" can be alleviated by eating a high-protein diet (hey, where have I heard that before?)

chikusho said:
Your argument logically disproves itself. How would it be possible to find a study of people reacting differently to food where there is hardly any food?
My goodness. Now who's faffing about with semantics? Diet in general (diet the noun, not the verb) encompasses food or lack thereof. If somebody has been fasting for a week apart from a cup of water a day, that's their diet and their body will react to that (remember, all that starvation mode and metabolisation of fat we were just talking about?). If you could show me that there are some people who react to a severe and prolonged caloric deficit (i.e. starvation) by not losing weight through metabolising fat, then you would have conclusively and irrefutably proved that the logic behind dieting is flawed.
 

Fyrana

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RealRT said:
Fyrana said:
RealRT said:
Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
I am sorry, but that is a bullshit excuse. I also had the same issue and for a while I decided to think "oh, well there isn't much I can do about it." Then once I reached 327 lbs, I decided that enough is enough. I started to eat healthy and exercise on a daily basis. I am now down to 209 and feeling much better. Last I remember, testosterone is not linked to eating poorly/having large portions/not exercising.
Last I remember, testosterone is directly linked to burning fat.
Do you have links to scientific papers about this? I don't mean any crap from "Men's Health", but actual scientific papers citing research documents, references, and what not. As I have a very very hard time believing this as I, someone with Low T was able to lose weight by simply exercising and eating healthier. So have all my women friends, unless somehow even though they have much lower T than men are excused from this "Burning of Fat" that testosterone apparently magically does.
 

RealRT

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Fyrana said:
RealRT said:
Fyrana said:
RealRT said:
Mike Lemond said:
thaluikhain said:
What is this "necessary dialouge" the title mentions? That fat people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist?
More accurately, obese people are a disgusting blight on society and shouldn't exist.

Nothing wrong with having a few extra pounds, but when you get into the obese territory, there's no reason for it. People should have at least enough respect for themselves to not neglect their own bodies so flagrantly.

If you like to go with the argument that most obese people are genetically predisposed to be fat, let me stop you right there. According to Wikipedia, the obesity rate in America in the 60's was 12%. In 2010, the obesity rate was 35%. Did all those people gain the "fat gene" within two generations? Are only obese people breeding? I am no statistician, but I would guess the answer is no to both questions.

The decisions you make affect not only yourself, but the people around you. Your friends and family, the people at work or school, etc. Obesity is a decision, and one that no human being should consider.

tl;dr: Put down the French fries, spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
I'm fat because my testosterone level is far below normal. What, did I just decide to have less testosterone? I don't remember making that decision.
I am sorry, but that is a bullshit excuse. I also had the same issue and for a while I decided to think "oh, well there isn't much I can do about it." Then once I reached 327 lbs, I decided that enough is enough. I started to eat healthy and exercise on a daily basis. I am now down to 209 and feeling much better. Last I remember, testosterone is not linked to eating poorly/having large portions/not exercising.
Last I remember, testosterone is directly linked to burning fat.
Do you have links to scientific papers about this? I don't mean any crap from "Men's Health", but actual scientific papers citing research documents, references, and what not. As I have a very very hard time believing this as I, someone with Low T was able to lose weight by simply exercising and eating healthier. So have all my women friends, unless somehow even though they have much lower T than men are excused from this "Burning of Fat" that testosterone apparently magically does.
No, I only talked to doctors. I know, not the best source of info. That's the thing - if your T was on the normal level (which you should get it to, by the way, do talk to an endocrinologist), you wouldn't have to. That's the reason why men generally get fat slower than women.
 

giles

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Fyrana said:
So have all my women friends, unless somehow even though they have much lower T than men are excused from this "Burning of Fat" that testosterone apparently magically does.
Well, women react more strongly to testosterone than men. Testosterone is definitely linked to building muscle (anabolic effect), which is why men are more "explosive" when it comes to body building. As for body fat...

With a very quick and dirty search (I basically just went to check out some wikipedia sources) I found some papers on testosterone treatment on people with hypogonadism (I didn't even know what that was, apparently it causes low testosterone levels)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701485/
There is some benefit from testosterone replacement therapy on muscle mass and strength, fat mass, BMD, sexual function, mood and general sense of well-being. Therefore, it seems logical to consider that in elderly men with subnormal T levels and clinical symptoms suggestive of androgen deficiency, hormone replacement therapy in combination with physical activity (resistance training) and adequate nutrition will result in an optimal increase in muscle strength, BMD, and general sense of well-being.
and this one has a similar statement on the same subject
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2544367/
Some of the effects of testosterone treatment are well recognised and it seems clear that testosterone treatment for aging hypogonadal men can be expected to increase lean body mass, decrease visceral fat mass, increase bone mineral density and decrease total cholesterol. Beneficial effects have been seen in many trials on other parameters such as glycemic control in diabetes, erectile dysfunction, cardiovascular risk factors, angina, mood and cognition. These potentially important effects require confirmation in larger clinical trials. Indeed, it is apparent that longer duration randomized controlled trials of testosterone treatment in large numbers of men are needed to confirm the effects of testosterone on many aspects of aging male health including cardiovascular health, psychiatric health, prostate cancer and functional capacity.
Make of that what you will
 

ILikeEggs

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RealRT said:
No, I only talked to doctors. I know, not the best source of info. That's the thing - if your T was on the normal level (which you should get it to, by the way, do talk to an endocrinologist), you wouldn't have to. That's the reason why men generally get fat slower than women.
Like Ninmecu said, low testosterone can be linked to a number of things, such as stress, bad eating habits, high sugar/carb intake, and a low fat, zinc and vitamin D intake.
 

Frostbyte666

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Hmm difficult to say. I had a case of being a fat bastard at 120kg and knowing I was fat, there were comments about my weight which I just shrugged off. It was a case of I didn't realise how obese I was even with people pointing it out. Maybe if they had been harsher in criticism I would have reacted more or if they just sat me down and told me. Anyway 1 day woke up looked in the mirror and realised how big the waistline was and thought right I need to drop this weight, so 6 months later of healthy eating and exercise have dropped down to 90kg. Could still stand to lose a few more and try and get down to 80kg but that's running a risk of going xylophone playing ribs thin.

Now I won't say it was easy to lose that weight but it wasn't hard to do either as long as you have a good amount of discipline and willpower. There are questions you can ask yourself like am I happy with the way I look? would a girl find my weight attractive? Having support from friends to encourage you helps as well. Oh yeah and the most important thing, use a calorie counter, it's annoying as hell and you'll feel hungry the first week or two since you stop overindulging on food but after that you get used to the new portion sizes. On the exercise front I followed a tabata regime because I hate exercise but 20 minutes a day for an extreme workout that works fine especially since I could do it at home with no need to go to a gym. A routine became get home from work, prep dinner and while it's cooking 20 minute exercise, shower then eat dinner.

The 1 problem is after losing so much weight you find it a lot more noticeable on others and really just want to talk to them and encourage them to lose the weight themselves.
 

Buckshaft

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I'd do anything for love, but I won't be fat.

In all seriousness, people should be allowed to eat whatever the fuck they want. And people shouldn't be pressured to exercise if they don't want to.

HOWEVER.

When it begins to affect other people, those around you and such, just because you can't be bothered to go for a walk every once in a while, then it's your own fault. Especially where I am, where we get free healthcare, there are some ridiculous stories of people getting Fat reduction surgery (Numerous times, in some cases) And who pays for it? The taxpayer. This wouldn't have been stood for 15-20 years ago, and yeah, I know, times change, more accommodating society. But. In 95% of cases, it's your choice to eat all the cake. I don't know how things are in the land of McDonald's and heavily processed food, but over here, they've generally been pretty good with anti-obesity campaigns. Showing the negative personal and economic impacts of an unhealthy lifestyle. You can't just mollycoddle people, and say "Oh, it's not your fault at all!" And then turn around and tell them they can live how they want.

I know there are people out there with disorders and such. They're different, they're exempt. But people need to take responsibility for their own lifestyle.
 

Ninmecu

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ILikeEggs said:
RealRT said:
No, I only talked to doctors. I know, not the best source of info. That's the thing - if your T was on the normal level (which you should get it to, by the way, do talk to an endocrinologist), you wouldn't have to. That's the reason why men generally get fat slower than women.
Like Ninmecu said, low testosterone can be linked to a number of things, such as stress, bad eating habits, high sugar/carb intake, and a low fat, zinc and vitamin D intake.
And yet everyone seems to be completely glossing over my points and disregarding me out of hand. This must be what it feels like to be Gary Taubes.(Who I swear to god is channeling Owen Wilson but smarter.) Fact is, science has known the most probably causation of adiposity and contrary to popular dogma, it is more complicated than CICO. But that's ok, we'll keep trumpeting truth to people who want to hear it and battle on with naysayers and claims of "Artery Clogging Saturated Fats". Which if that were true, many native cultures wouldn't have survived the thousands upon thousands of years they have only to succumb to a westernized diet. As I said before, if you are to prove a theory you must seek out black swans, the second you find one, you have to alter your theory to account for those variables.

We really need to fund a more in depth study akin to the A TO Z study done in recent years, one that pushes for full adherence to finally fully test the theory in a current modern setting. Sadly, ittl never happen because it'd cost to much. You're looking at about 200 test subjects, a year long clinical study and food to feed those people year long to adhere to a specific diet down to the last gram of w/e macro is being tested for that particular diet.
 

chikusho

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Batou667 said:
It's not semantics, because there's a world of difference between "fat because genetics" and "fat because of environment, culture, poverty and/or ingrained eating habits", and correspondingly how (indeed if) we could counteract that.
There's also fat because both. I guess I'm not seeing the point here, or how it counteracts my argument.

Thanks. But let's recap the key points of that article:
- Around 1 in 6 people may be genetically predisposed (not 40%+, which is the current level of obesity in the US).
- A predisposition to obesity isn't a guarantee of obesity nor is it the same as saying "it can't be avoided". Quite the opposite, somebody with a predisposition to a health problem should take steps to avoid it.
- Production of the "hunger hormone" can be alleviated by eating a high-protein diet (hey, where have I heard that before?)
So what you're saying is basically that everyone could be thing if they were just eating protein. There's also no evidence for this being a reliable method of dieting, or if the people engaged in it are able to control their hunger that way.

My goodness. Now who's faffing about with semantics? Diet in general (diet the noun, not the verb) encompasses food or lack thereof. If somebody has been fasting for a week apart from a cup of water a day, that's their diet and their body will react to that (remember, all that starvation mode and metabolisation of fat we were just talking about?). If you could show me that there are some people who react to a severe and prolonged caloric deficit (i.e. starvation) by not losing weight through metabolising fat, then you would have conclusively and irrefutably proved that the logic behind dieting is flawed.
I've never made that argument.
You can't choose what your body is going to do with what you put inside it, and people will get fatter or not as a result. Not enough to cause obesity, of course. There's plenty of eating that needs to be done in order for that to happen.