Fate/Stay Night and Typemoon in General

[Nihilm]

Woah, Maybe I should have included that my "Shiki can kill servants" was a joke.

Also Nasu has to pick up the pace with the Tsukihime remake, I will make Sacchin happy damn it!

EDIT: Though the power level discussion here is pretty tame compared to some other topics I have read on the same matter.

Well I guess we are just all reasonable sort of people

 

[Richardplex]

Huh...so it is. But its effects are more potent if you have a contract with Saber.

Spoiler

Otherwise he would've healed immediately when Saber stabbed him after Caster used rule breaker on her

Spoiler

He doesn't heal immediately even with the contract, he heals after a minute - after being stabbed, he was taken away quite quickly after that event. Though my point wasn't that he was basically immortal, but that non fatal injuries couldn't disable him, which is why even after all those injuries Archer dealt him he could still fight against him. He probably does heal better with the contract, though

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I have a mixed relationship with Type-Moon. So much that it is actually physically difficult for me to come into this thread because of all the feelings I feel I have to convey.

I became a huge fan of it in 2006. I loved Tsukihime, it was the first VN I played and I greatly enjoyed it. Kagetsu Tohya was good as well.

On the other hand, Fate was one of the most boring VN experiences I've had (Fate-Boring, UBW and HF-acceptable with some boring moments_. Type-Moon keeps milking Fate to death (admittedly, Extra and Apocrypha have finally added some intrigue that the series deserved). My fandom became mitigated around 2010.

Ultimately the problem is that it becomes very hard to actually discuss the STORIES of the series because everyone is focused on waifuism, powerlevels, and justifying Nasulogic.

Kara no Kyoukai is acceptable, but it borders on pretentious at times (like much of Nasu writing) and the main couple is either hit or miss (and miss for me).

Fate/Zero is also a mixed bag for me. On one hand it has some interesting moments (exploring Kirei), on the other hand it falls into the same repetition that the Fate route does.

 

[jhoroz]

I have a mixed relationship with Type-Moon. So much that it is actually physically difficult for me to come into this thread because of all the feelings I feel I have to convey.

I became a huge fan of it in 2006. I loved Tsukihime, it was the first VN I played and I greatly enjoyed it. Kagetsu Tohya was good as well.

On the other hand, Fate was one of the most boring VN experiences I've had (Fate-Boring, UBW and HF-acceptable with some boring moments_. Type-Moon keeps milking Fate to death (admittedly, Extra and Apocrypha have finally added some intrigue that the series deserved). My fandom became mitigated around 2010.

Ultimately the problem is that it becomes very hard to actually discuss the STORIES of the series because everyone is focused on waifuism, powerlevels, and justifying Nasulogic.

Kara no Kyoukai is acceptable, but it borders on pretentious at times (like much of Nasu writing) and the main couple is either hit or miss (and miss for me).

Fate/Zero is also a mixed bag for me. On one hand it has some interesting moments (exploring Kirei), on the other hand it falls into the same repetition that the Fate route does.

How does it fall into the same repetition the fate route does? If anything it's much more fast paced than the Fate route.

 

[jhoroz]

Huh...so it is. But its effects are more potent if you have a contract with Saber.

Spoiler

Otherwise he would've healed immediately when Saber stabbed him after Caster used rule breaker on her

Spoiler

He doesn't heal immediately even with the contract, he heals after a minute - after being stabbed, he was taken away quite quickly after that event. Though my point wasn't that he was basically immortal, but that non fatal injuries couldn't disable him, which is why even after all those injuries Archer dealt him he could still fight against him. He probably does heal better with the contract, though

"The contract between Saber and a Master isn't a requirement to use Avalon's abilities, but having one will provide the user the true benefit of limited immortality by allowing it to obtain prana from Saber and fully utilize its effects according to the contract"

-Typemoon wiki

Granted, this might not apply to what was described above, but it does support my previous statement

 

[Richardplex]

snip

Ah, I assumed it would do to some extend, but didn't know for sure, thanks.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I have a mixed relationship with Type-Moon. So much that it is actually physically difficult for me to come into this thread because of all the feelings I feel I have to convey.

I became a huge fan of it in 2006. I loved Tsukihime, it was the first VN I played and I greatly enjoyed it. Kagetsu Tohya was good as well.

On the other hand, Fate was one of the most boring VN experiences I've had (Fate-Boring, UBW and HF-acceptable with some boring moments_. Type-Moon keeps milking Fate to death (admittedly, Extra and Apocrypha have finally added some intrigue that the series deserved). My fandom became mitigated around 2010.

Ultimately the problem is that it becomes very hard to actually discuss the STORIES of the series because everyone is focused on waifuism, powerlevels, and justifying Nasulogic.

Kara no Kyoukai is acceptable, but it borders on pretentious at times (like much of Nasu writing) and the main couple is either hit or miss (and miss for me).

Fate/Zero is also a mixed bag for me. On one hand it has some interesting moments (exploring Kirei), on the other hand it falls into the same repetition that the Fate route does.

How does it fall into the same repetition the fate route does? If anything it's much more fast paced than the Fate route.

The constant re-emphasis of hero mentality that Kiritsugu and Shirou have, along with their self-doubt. Admittedly Fate/zero does it significantly less, and with more variety (examining Kiritsugu from other POV). Fate route is just fucking padded with Shirou's moral dilemma to the point that you want to scream. For Zero, you get the general idea and only goes a bit above the re-emphasis point.

I also agree that the pacing is far better in zero, the abundance of character perspectives helps with that.

 

[jhoroz]

I have a mixed relationship with Type-Moon. So much that it is actually physically difficult for me to come into this thread because of all the feelings I feel I have to convey.

I became a huge fan of it in 2006. I loved Tsukihime, it was the first VN I played and I greatly enjoyed it. Kagetsu Tohya was good as well.

On the other hand, Fate was one of the most boring VN experiences I've had (Fate-Boring, UBW and HF-acceptable with some boring moments_. Type-Moon keeps milking Fate to death (admittedly, Extra and Apocrypha have finally added some intrigue that the series deserved). My fandom became mitigated around 2010.

Ultimately the problem is that it becomes very hard to actually discuss the STORIES of the series because everyone is focused on waifuism, powerlevels, and justifying Nasulogic.

Kara no Kyoukai is acceptable, but it borders on pretentious at times (like much of Nasu writing) and the main couple is either hit or miss (and miss for me).

Fate/Zero is also a mixed bag for me. On one hand it has some interesting moments (exploring Kirei), on the other hand it falls into the same repetition that the Fate route does.

How does it fall into the same repetition the fate route does? If anything it's much more fast paced than the Fate route.

The constant re-emphasis of hero mentality that Kiritsugu and Shirou have, along with their self-doubt. Admittedly Fate/zero does it significantly less, and with more variety (examining Kiritsugu from other POV). Fate route is just fucking padded with Shirou's moral dilemma to the point that you want to scream. For Zero, you get the general idea and only goes a bit above the re-emphasis point.

I also agree that the pacing is far better in zero, the abundance of character perspectives helps with that.

There isn't really much of a moral dilemma in the Fate route for Shirou. It's really Saber's moral dilemma. If anything, Zero is more reminiscent with HF, where Shirou and Kiritsugu had to choose between their ideals and those they care and the way their choices differentiate when compared to each other.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I have a mixed relationship with Type-Moon. So much that it is actually physically difficult for me to come into this thread because of all the feelings I feel I have to convey.

I became a huge fan of it in 2006. I loved Tsukihime, it was the first VN I played and I greatly enjoyed it. Kagetsu Tohya was good as well.

On the other hand, Fate was one of the most boring VN experiences I've had (Fate-Boring, UBW and HF-acceptable with some boring moments_. Type-Moon keeps milking Fate to death (admittedly, Extra and Apocrypha have finally added some intrigue that the series deserved). My fandom became mitigated around 2010.

Ultimately the problem is that it becomes very hard to actually discuss the STORIES of the series because everyone is focused on waifuism, powerlevels, and justifying Nasulogic.

Kara no Kyoukai is acceptable, but it borders on pretentious at times (like much of Nasu writing) and the main couple is either hit or miss (and miss for me).

Fate/Zero is also a mixed bag for me. On one hand it has some interesting moments (exploring Kirei), on the other hand it falls into the same repetition that the Fate route does.

How does it fall into the same repetition the fate route does? If anything it's much more fast paced than the Fate route.

The constant re-emphasis of hero mentality that Kiritsugu and Shirou have, along with their self-doubt. Admittedly Fate/zero does it significantly less, and with more variety (examining Kiritsugu from other POV). Fate route is just fucking padded with Shirou's moral dilemma to the point that you want to scream. For Zero, you get the general idea and only goes a bit above the re-emphasis point.

I also agree that the pacing is far better in zero, the abundance of character perspectives helps with that.

There isn't really much of a moral dilemma in the Fate route for Shirou. It's really Saber's moral dilemma. If anything, Zero is more reminiscent with HF, where Shirou and Kiritsugu had to choose between their ideals and those they care and the way their choices differentiate when compared to each other.

Sorry, moral dilemma was the wrong word. I meant to refer to (Fate route) Shirou's continuous inner conflict about his ideal being right and why he decided on it. It's not a moral dilemma, it's more a crisis-of-self coupled with cognitive dissonance. It is also present in UBW and HF, but it just managed to annoy me more in Fate.

Kiritsugu's inner conflict just includes the moral dilemma which is present in HF Shirou. Kiritsugu also has the crisis-of-self, but he mostly suppresses it cause he's a faker (as they would say)

 

[Nihilm]

*snip*

I might've misunderstood something, but I don't think Shirou and Kiritsugu were that similar at all. The way I saw was that kiritsugu gave up on the ideal Shirou has before F/Zero or atleast he changed it a lot, it wasn't about saving everybody anymore, it was saving as many as possible, a really for the greater good mentality while Shirou had the must save everybody at all costs.

Ofcourse Kiritsugu's end goal(wish) was a world without conflict, wasn't that the whole point with the end of F/Z that the grail could only give Kiritsugu his goal the same way he would be able to gain it, by sacrificing people over and over again until only those precious to Kiritsugu survived then with only them left there would be a world without conflict.

In my opinion Kiritsugu and Shirou were two fairly different characters, Shirou took over what Kiritsugu's childhood ideals were which was the entire be a superhero and save everybody mentality, since that was what Kiritsugu told him he had wanted to be when he was young, he even said that when he grew up things got in the way of that ideal and that he couldnt be a superhero, or something like that

 

[Lovely Mixture]

*snip*

I might've misunderstood something, but I don't think Shirou and Kiritsugu were that similar at all. The way I saw was that kiritsugu gave up on the ideal Shirou has before F/Zero or atleast he changed it a lot, it wasn't about saving everybody anymore, it was saving as many as possible, a really for the greater good mentality while Shirou had the must save everybody at all costs.

Ofcourse Kiritsugu's end goal(wish) was a world without conflict, wasn't that the whole point with the end of F/Z that the grail could only give Kiritsugu his goal the same way he would be able to gain it, by sacrificing people over and over again until only those precious to Kiritsugu survived then with only them left there would be a world without conflict.

In my opinion Kiritsugu and Shirou were two fairly different characters, Shirou took over what Kiritsugu's childhood ideals were which was the entire be a superhero and save everybody mentality, since that was what Kiritsugu told him he had wanted to be when he was young, he even said and then he grew up.

Yeah I didn't mean to say they were similar (but I see how my words could have been misinterpreted), but that their situations were similar. They both grow up holding onto ideals that end up defining much of their actions in life. Kiritsugu loses a childhood friend, Shirou loses his family and sees everyone burn around him.

Their ideals aren't similar (except for the end goal of altruism), but their relationship to their ideals is. FSN and Fate/zero explore that part of their psyche in one way or another.

 

[Nihilm]

*snip*

I might've misunderstood something, but I don't think Shirou and Kiritsugu were that similar at all. The way I saw was that kiritsugu gave up on the ideal Shirou has before F/Zero or atleast he changed it a lot, it wasn't about saving everybody anymore, it was saving as many as possible, a really for the greater good mentality while Shirou had the must save everybody at all costs.

Ofcourse Kiritsugu's end goal(wish) was a world without conflict, wasn't that the whole point with the end of F/Z that the grail could only give Kiritsugu his goal the same way he would be able to gain it, by sacrificing people over and over again until only those precious to Kiritsugu survived then with only them left there would be a world without conflict.

In my opinion Kiritsugu and Shirou were two fairly different characters, Shirou took over what Kiritsugu's childhood ideals were which was the entire be a superhero and save everybody mentality, since that was what Kiritsugu told him he had wanted to be when he was young, he even said and then he grew up.

Yeah I didn't mean to say they were similar (but I see how my words could have been misinterpreted), but that their situations were similar. They both grow up holding onto ideals that end up defining much of their actions in life. Kiritsugu loses a childhood friend, Shirou loses his family and sees everyone burn around him.

Their ideals aren't similar (except for the end goal of altruism), but their relationship to their ideals is. FSN and Fate/zero explore that part of their psyche in one way or another.

Yeah, but I woiuld say that the differences in their ideals is what makes Kiritsugu a really good character and Shirou seem like a kid that can't let go of his childish notions, so the situation in Kiritsugu's case seemed a lot more realistic because of that.

I don't know honestly, I am the kind of person that can enjoy lenghty parts in books where nothing happens and endless self-monologue-ing philosophy, I mean I read through the entire sword of truth book series(11 books each around 500-700 pages) that did nothing but do nothing and philosophize for capitalism and against communism/socialism for hundreds of pages straight, even though I didn't agree with the philosophy the books were selling, I still endlessly enjoyed it.


I take visual novels more as books rather than video games. Though in my opinion they fall somewhere in the middle.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Yeah, but I woiuld say that the differences in their ideals is what makes Kiritsugu a really good character and Shirou seem like a kid that can't let go of his childish notions, so the situation in Kiritsugu's case seemed a lot more realistic because of that.

Oh definitely, that point doesn't even need to be argued. Shirou's idealism is exactly as you say, a kid who can't let go.

I don't know honestly, I am the kind of person that can enjoy lengthy parts in books where nothing happens and endless self-monologue-ing philosophy, I mean I read through the entire sword of truth book series(11 books each around 500-700 pages) that did nothing but do nothing and philosophize for capitalism and against communism/socialism for hundreds of pages straight, even though I didn't agree with the philosophy the books were selling, I still endlessly enjoyed it.


I take visual novels more as books rather than video games. Though in my opinion they fall somewhere in the middle.

I'm fine with length and monologues, but only if the length actually serves a purpose. One of the reasons I like Saya no Uta is because its length is perfect, it does sort of leave you wanting more, but nothing gets too emphasized to the point where you feel like a drill has burrowing into your skull (and it was also by Urobuchi who wrote Fate/zero, small world).

For FSN and some chapters of Kara no Kyoukai (talking the novels), there are quite a few moments where I feel Nasu is just padding the work. The length isn't serving a purpose, it's than re-emphasizing points that we already know. Depends on your tolerance.

As you say, VNs are much more books than videogames, because they rely on writing as the primary entertainment factor. Good music, sound, and graphics can't really save a badly written VN (though they can help improve the experience).

 

[Nihilm]

Decided to start the far side of the moon routes today in Tsukihime. Aiming for the Akiha route, without any spoilers anything I should brace myself for?

 

[jhoroz]

Decided to start the far side of the moon routes today in Tsukihime. Aiming for the Akiha route, without any spoilers anything I should brace myself for?

You'll be seeing a lot of this

 

[RedmistSM]

Decided to start the far side of the moon routes today in Tsukihime. Aiming for the Akiha route, without any spoilers anything I should brace myself for?

Brace yourself for the best parts. It's one of my favorite routes.

On Type-Moon in general, I like Tsukihime. The story is nice and involving, and the characters largely don't feel like archetypes. Fate on the other hand does feel like these really stereotypical anime characters to me. It's the difference between Tosaka and Akiha. Additionally, the sex scenes felt more out of place than ever. Still think it was all right, I can remember a few cool moments, but I'm not that excited for a new anime. Even if Kara no Kyokai looked very very pretty.

I used to play a lot of Melty Blood in my high school during recess. Four hands, one keyboard, fun times.
Kagetsu Tohya was a pretty entertaining couple of days of injokes and weird stuff. I can't remember beating it tough. I just woke up one morning and found images from the ending in my gallery, so it must have been really amazing.

 

[Nihilm]

Noon comes, and school ends.
I have no idea,
I have no idea, but I still have to look foor Yumizuka.

1. Go search for Yumizuka
2. Search around the school
3. Search around the city


This particular choice made me lol, I am pretty sure the first one is the one I should pick, but what am I searching if not for yumizuka if I pick the two other options, this choice is just very weird IMO.

Or where am I searching, if I pick number 1 for that matter.

Edit: Hmm, it seems all 3 of them are basically the same thing, what an odd choice, does it matter which one of these I pick, down the line? anyone?

 

[jhoroz]

1.Save Yumizuka
2.Save Yumizuka
3.Save Yumizuka

Isn't it sad, Nihilm?

 

[Nihilm]

1.Save Yumizuka
2.Save Yumizuka
3.Save Yumizuka

Isn't it sad, Nihilm?

I----------

1.Bring Ilya back
2.Bring Ilya back
3.Bring Ilya back

I remember that, because that one also made me laugh

 

[Richardplex]

1.Save Yumizuka
2.Save Yumizuka
3.Save Yumizuka

Isn't it sad, Nihilm?

I----------

1.Bring Ilya back
2.Bring Ilya back
3.Bring Ilya back

I remember that, because that one also made me laugh

They only give you that choice, because they never give you the most important one:

Spoiler: heavens feel