Female Gamers: Are you tired of being presented with no dignity?

[Boxmeister]

dude...

 

[Skeleon]

Wow, young thread yet it's already 15 pages long?
Important topic, I guess?!

Well, it may be demeaning to some. But consider this: Everybody is stylized and exaggerated in games (and most other media as well).
Us males don't all look like Duke Nukem or this guy from Gears of War or Solid Snake, either. Okay, last one's a bad example, but still.

Games aren't meant to be a hundred percent realistic. While the graphics strive for more realism, the topics and characters don't.
Remember we're on The Escapist? In a way, games present us with a superhero fantasy.

The characters aren't this way for realisms sake but for spectacle.
And some of those bazongas are quite spectacular!
[small]Don't hit me, don't hit me, don't hit me...[/small]

EDIT: Also, there are several female characters that aren't defined through their breasts. Alyx Vance, Mercury, SHODAN (sort of female...), err... I dunno who else. Admittedly they're in the minority, but it'd be wrong to say there are only bigtitted dumbfucks.

 

[Evan Waters]

It isn't objectionable. Did those character's you listed games bomb? So my point still remains that there are games that do use "normal" females as well as games that use "hot" ones. So we have already achieved what this topic was about. Now the peasants can rejoice.

Not that easy. The thin, busty, wisecracking, scantily clad, fully made-up type is still treated as the "default" for female characters, with the examples I listed as exceptions. There are still a lot of companies with narrow perceptions of women in gaming (both as players and characters), and it would be to the industry's benefit if we went against that.

Seriously, I saw a video from Bonus Round commentating on E3, and Dan Hsu has a bit where he's saying he felt "castrated" by parts of Nintendo's presentation focusing on DS games like Women's Mystery Club and Style Savvy. Not all women are into those sorts of games, obviously, there are plenty of "hardcore" female fans, but the "Eww, something not aimed at me!" attitude struck me as over the top. There's a really weird "Must be macho" attitude among gamers, which I find at least ironic since we're all sitting around indoors playing with controllers. It's one thing to like the macho stuff, it's another to be actively hostile towards anything targeted at another demographic, and I think it shows a certain frat boy mentality at large in the gaming world.

It is that easy. If every game that came along with a female lead was as described throughout this thread then it would be. The simple fact that

A) Not all games are made in America or in the West there will be some cultural differences. It may not be the same as your culture but to be so closeminded is truly pathetic.

So, if you think sexist portrayals of women in games are a bad thing to avoid, you're ethnocentric and closeminded?

What kind of straw man is that?

B) Games are not one size fits all. There will be games that don't appeal to certain people. And for all those who whine about as you put it "Eww, something not aimed at me!" must struggle in any store outside of specialty stores. I mean all those shelves lined with stuff that doesn't appeal to them directly must make thier heads explode.

And yet, that is the "hardcore gamer" demographic in a nutshell. Aim anything at the casual crowd and they howl with rage. It's a question of entitlement, and though some women fall in that crowd as well, there's definitely an overlap between the hardcore fanboys who whine that Wii Fit is the cancer that is killing gaming and the chauvinistic attitude too many games reflect.

The way I see this it isn't about games or what female characters wear. This is about the arrogance of a "minority" group who found something that doesn't appeal to them so they must attempt to abolish it.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ABOLISHING ANYTHING. It's about having MORE DIVERSITY in gaming. You know, catering to a diverse and varied market with different tastes to push at different borders and expand the medium as a whole beyond its core assumptions?

 

[theultimateend]

I would usually keep this within the Girl Gamer group... but just in case you haven't joined, or you didn't know it existed, I thought I'd share one of our rants with the rest of the escapist.
From characters to covers, women are repeastedly represented in unrealistic, often impossible (according to physics and anatomy) ways, that are completely IRRELEVENT to their characters. So none of those "What about Superman's chest?" comebacks. He has to be strong to beat the crap out of people, you don't need GG breasts and a leather suit to be a kick-butt lady.
SO girls, what are your thoughts?
PS - I am not saying females are ALWAYS presented this way, just most of the time. A *big* most.

So essentially I'm supposed to accept that all men in games have huge packages and impossibly well sculpted forms but I have to feel like an asshole because women are slim and have large breasts?

Superman is a superhuman. His arms are the size of the average body builder but he can throw a train. His body shape has nothing to do with his power.

Spiderman too doesn't need to be thick and muscular because he already has the human equivelant of spider strength.

Regardless this is a grand example of double standards. "Batmans big package is to intimidate people, Catwomens breasts are just sexism!"

GI Joes have always been impossibly fit and I loved them. Did it lead me to take steroids? No. Why? Because I'm not a fucking idiot.

My girlfriend watches a bunch of Anime with girls who are slim with breasts taht could crush a car roof. Does she feel self conscious about herself because of their impossible image? No. Why? Because she's not a fucking idiot.

It's simple. The people in these games, movies, and shows are not you. They are fictitious characters created in fictitious worlds. Most celebrities aren't even all that attractive in person. Photoshop does most of the work.

The female heroines in most games I've played have been powerful, assertive, and intelligent. The fact that you overlook all of that because of her body type makes you no better than the people you apparently are tired of. Like when someone told me they liked having a "real womans figure" made me wonder what they think of some of my naturally skinny friends. Are these girls fake because they have metabolisms? (Like me, some folks just don't gain weight, not everyone is vomitting or starving).

 

[Evan Waters]

So I think we've covered that guys are just as foolishly portrayed as women, but do you men look at someone like Kratos and think that it's undignified? That it's unrealistic and downright silly to expect to measure up to such "buff standards"? (Don't connote that I myself am leading to a yes or no answer, this really is just a question looking for a riposte)

The difference is, Kratos and such aren't inherently sexualized in their portrayal. Sure, there are people who find him attractive, but the buffness is meant to convey their physical strength, which is part of their power.

The idea is, it's important for the male characters to be STRONG, while it's important for the female characters to be PRETTY. Arguably they're both unrealistic expectations, but at least the former carries the connotation of being able to do something instead of being there to be seen and gawked at. Subject vs. object, as it were.

Of course, if you're really upset about the narrow range of roles available for men, then you should be all for expanding the range of roles available for women, because shattering stereotypes tends to create more opportunities for all.

 

[Evan Waters]

I would usually keep this within the Girl Gamer group... but just in case you haven't joined, or you didn't know it existed, I thought I'd share one of our rants with the rest of the escapist.
From characters to covers, women are repeastedly represented in unrealistic, often impossible (according to physics and anatomy) ways, that are completely IRRELEVENT to their characters. So none of those "What about Superman's chest?" comebacks. He has to be strong to beat the crap out of people, you don't need GG breasts and a leather suit to be a kick-butt lady.
SO girls, what are your thoughts?
PS - I am not saying females are ALWAYS presented this way, just most of the time. A *big* most.

So essentially I'm supposed to accept that all men in games have huge packages and impossibly well sculpted forms but I have to feel like an asshole because women are slim and have large breasts?

Wait, all men in games have huge packages?

Honestly, I've not seen male video game characters' bulges presented in specific detail to start making size comparisons. Publicity images and the like don't exactly draw attention to them the way they do to, say, Lara Croft's T&A.

(EDIT: I mean, I'll grant you Duke Nukem, *probably*, but...)

 

[squid5580]

To have a rational discussion you would need to at least attempt to be rational instead of perpetuating the debate with stupidity. Afterall denying the fact that there are games in existance that don't portray women in such a fashion tosses any rationality right out the window.

1) When did I deny those games exist? I may have denied that the ratio of them to ones that do is on the order of "one or 2 out of millions," but I did not deny they exist.

2) I said "granting that for the sake of argument" so I don't know how you think this or your previous response is relevant to the other things I said in my post.

You live in a free market. If you don't like it you don't have to buy it. Just because a fantasy put into video game format is a bad thing. If it were a dragon no one would think twice. If it were anything other than a woman no one would care. Yet a bunch of people put thier minds together to think of a way a heroic woman should look in a video game and come up with that it makes sense. You want your character to be appealing. And so what if she is protected by a magical piece of TinFoil + 1 as she slays through an army of orcs or ninjas or kobolds and you are worried about the realism of her body and attire? Seriously? Now if you want a realistic game you will probably find all the women are fairly realistic. There wasn't many vitual hotties in either GTA 4 or Saints Row. So where is this unreal/unfair representation of women? The only thing I see that is unfair is these groups of people who decide it is thier right to smack the hands of people who do enjoy the GG cupped heroine because they don't.

It isn't like the market has no room for both tpes of games. Infact it is already fairly diverse. And it isn't like you are missing much passing on X-Blades. If you wanted you could find a similar game with male characters with ease.

 

[Beltaine]

With the utmost respect, your argument about the portrayal of female characters in video games is moot and invalid so long as the stereotype portrayal is perpetuated by females in real-life.

Aubry Fisher on LA Ink is a prime example.

Paris Hilton, Anna Nicole Smith, Britney Spears all make/made their living on playing the "I'm dumb as a rock but oh so pretty" card.

It's not just celebrities either. Real women continue to perpetuate the stereotype every single day.

You can't drive a 4x4, wear blue jeans and a tank top t-shirt, sport a mullet, dip tobacco, listen to country music, fly a rebel flag, shoot your guns in the air and down a 12-pack of Milwaukee's Best and complain about how people stereotype rednecks.

 

[squid5580]

You live in a free market. If you don't like it you don't have to buy it.

Yes, I know. I'm just wonder how that resolves this contradiction I pointed out to you in the things you said to me:

You said a while back:

Just because developers make women in games well endowed and scantily clothed doesn't affect sales all that much. Did X-Blades hit the top of the charts? Is SF4 getting it's ass kicked by SC4? No because of one simple reason. The MC and the clothes they may or may not wear mean nothing until someone shines a huge political spotlight on it and makes a big deal about nothing.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.138610.3132079

In one comment you're telling me these things "don't affect sales all that much," and later you're telling me about how "we run out in the millions to buy" these kinds of games because of a "need to reproduce that is causing the problem." What exactly are you trying to say, because it seems you're contradicting yourself.

*rest of paragraph*

I find nothing in here relevant to the question of how to resolve that apparent contradiction in what you said.

It isn't like the market has no room for both tpes of games. Infact it is already fairly diverse. And it isn't like you are missing much passing on X-Blades. If you wanted you could find a similar game with male characters with ease.

And...that further muddies exactly what you're trying to say about the relationship between game sales and the sex in X-Blades.

First you tell me it "doesn't affect sales all that much"; then you tell me that "we run out in the millions to buy" these kinds of games because of a "need to reproduce that is causing the problem"; now you tell me that it "isn't like the market has no room for both tpes of games."

What exactly are you trying to say?

You might wanna try rereading since I never said anything about millions running out to buy them. Infact I said they don't usually sell very well anyways. And there isn't sex in X-Blades. There is just a girl wearing skimpy clothes. There is a difference.

 

[squid5580]

With the utmost respect, your argument about the portrayal of female characters in video games is moot and invalid so long as the stereotype portrayal is perpetuated by females in real-life.

Aubry Fisher on LA Ink is a prime example.

Paris Hilton, Anna Nicole Smith, Britney Spears all make/made their living on playing the "I'm dumb as a rock but oh so pretty" card.

It's not just celebrities either. Real women continue to perpetuate the stereotype every single day.

You can't drive a 4x4, wear blue jeans and a tank top t-shirt, sport a mullet, dip tobacco, listen to country music, fly a rebel flag, shoot your guns in the air and down a 12-pack of Milwaukee's Best and complain about how people stereotype rednecks.

The fact of the matter is these VG ladies aren't portrayed as the "just walked off the set of Clueless" but are usually competent and intelligent. That isn't the issue. The issue is these smart competent women have big boobs and wear next to nothing.

 

[cloudwolf616]

Man this is A very hot topic!
I think that many gamers out there enjoy the in your face fakeness of it all.

I mean look at xbox lives avatar option where you can desgin your own mirror image but im willing to bet my right arm at least 90% of avatars out there look nothing like the real person!

I know mine doesnt cause im not happy with the way I look so I made him look different.

So as long as gamers think they can use Games as an escape than the girls are going to look amazingly naked and the guy they are using will look like a man mountain usually carrying A gun way to big for any normal person to even hold straight.

Which sucks people need to wake up and leave their dark rooms and find real human interaction!

 

[dantherian]

i find the majority of it increasingly hilarious. whilst playing through MGS 3 again after a long period i get to the part about i dunno 2 hours into the game if you don't listen to all the story. were snake meets his "contact on the inside" who pulls up on a motor cycles shoots the shit out of everything then remove her helmet

"oh its a bad ass hot chick im so glad women are not longer wussy things for escort missions"

she then dismounts her bike, and the first thing she does? no not say "hello" she unzips her jumpsuit and shows snake her bra, and what options do i have during this? i can click R1 to get a better look.
in all honesty its not worth getting riled up over. games these days have enough strong women protaganists that its easy to say
"holy shit that chicks fucking bad ass!"
to say
"why can this chick look realistic in a non realistic medium?"
you still play video games which means that there are either enough out there that don't feature these type of women avatars or you just get over it and play them anyway.

i hope i got all my spelling errors, but if i didn't please say so

 

[That Guy Ya Know]

Well speaking as a male gamer I find it an insult to my dignity that game producers feel all they have to do is slap a big pair of tits on a game and I will buy, if I want to look at big tits there are plenty or porn sites out there for that when I am buying a game I want a game!

 

[Evan Waters]

With the utmost respect, your argument about the portrayal of female characters in video games is moot and invalid so long as the stereotype portrayal is perpetuated by females in real-life.

Aubry Fisher on LA Ink is a prime example.

Paris Hilton, Anna Nicole Smith, Britney Spears all make/made their living on playing the "I'm dumb as a rock but oh so pretty" card.

It's not just celebrities either. Real women continue to perpetuate the stereotype every single day.

You can't drive a 4x4, wear blue jeans and a tank top t-shirt, sport a mullet, dip tobacco, listen to country music, fly a rebel flag, shoot your guns in the air and down a 12-pack of Milwaukee's Best and complain about how people stereotype rednecks.

The fact of the matter is these VG ladies aren't portrayed as the "just walked off the set of Clueless" but are usually competent and intelligent. That isn't the issue. The issue is these smart competent women have big boobs and wear next to nothing.

Well, personality's also a part of it- they're competent, but often in the same mold, i.e. smug, dry one-liners, responds scornfully to any romantic advances, etc. Not bad in itself, just overdone. TV Tropes put it best (I won't link you because you may not have 6 hours free)- "Some writers fall into the trap of thinking that since the Action Girl is a Strong Woman?, she doesn't need any other qualities or Character Development, often resulting in a really Flat Character."

 

[Suda51]

sex sells unfortunately.

There's always Samus Aran.

 

[squid5580]

With the utmost respect, your argument about the portrayal of female characters in video games is moot and invalid so long as the stereotype portrayal is perpetuated by females in real-life.

Aubry Fisher on LA Ink is a prime example.

Paris Hilton, Anna Nicole Smith, Britney Spears all make/made their living on playing the "I'm dumb as a rock but oh so pretty" card.

It's not just celebrities either. Real women continue to perpetuate the stereotype every single day.

You can't drive a 4x4, wear blue jeans and a tank top t-shirt, sport a mullet, dip tobacco, listen to country music, fly a rebel flag, shoot your guns in the air and down a 12-pack of Milwaukee's Best and complain about how people stereotype rednecks.

The fact of the matter is these VG ladies aren't portrayed as the "just walked off the set of Clueless" but are usually competent and intelligent. That isn't the issue. The issue is these smart competent women have big boobs and wear next to nothing.

Well, personality's also a part of it- they're competent, but often in the same mold, i.e. smug, dry one-liners, responds scornfully to any romantic advances, etc. Not bad in itself, just overdone. TV Tropes put it best (I won't link you because you may not have 6 hours free)- "Some writers fall into the trap of thinking that since the Action Girl is a Strong Woman™, she doesn't need any other qualities or Character Development, often resulting in a really Flat Character."

That is the problem not with female characters but with almost all characters. Men, women, child, alien and monster. Developers have a tendency not to worry about the story so things like character development take a back seat. Again though this is alot to do with us. Just look around the escapist and you are bound to find a poll asking what part of the game is most important(10 of them pop up daily) and most of the time story will be lowest on the list.