Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

[Vault101]

snip.

that was really interesting thanks!

I can on some level see that from a radical feminists perspective that a M>F acting overly feminine calls into question weather or not certain things are inherent or a product of society (I dont agree and its not really true eather) but even then not all trans people are stereotypical like that...in fact in general people really do not know much about it like they might homosexualtiy...untill recetnly I didn't even know some trans people just prefered to be androdginess

 

[wolfyrik]

Wait what? Fedoras make you sexist? I thought they made you a Blues Brother.....

It's amazing what you can miss on the net.

OP, thanks in advance for defending any future choice of headwear I may make. I'm honestly really surprised that this is a thing but I like your comparison, good argument.


brb looking for fedora.....

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

It's a weird thing to fixate on but I have to say that I've never seen trilby/fedora shaming in real life.

Of course you haven't.

The internet is where you type shit that's too dumb or embarassing to actually say. Think of it like pop music lyrics. Remove the music and it's mostly retarded, mopey, shallow bullshit that you'd slap a friend for saying to you with a straight face.

EDIT: Aaaaaand I just saw the picture of you with a fedora. Haha sorryyyyy, you obviously in no way look like a twat-nugget, you look quite lovely. My point was entirely directed at the dudes, promise.

There's also this phenomena, where it's far more comfortable to be a **** to someone whose face you can't see.

Dr Panda prescribes spending less time on the internet, and more time talking face-to-face with people for all those who are over-invested in this utter shite.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

It's more about what attracts a person to a Fedora.

Fedoras are, more often not, worn by someone who doesn't have a clear sense of fashion identity and it really just consists of whatever they think makes them look cool. Which stems from a lack of confidence. That lack of confidence often leads to the "nice guy."

Because the two things people who lack confidence need... are mockery and having their character questioned.

Disregarding the feminist thing, since I'm just....really confused these days on feminism and all of that. (I'm all for everyone being equal, even if I have to smack myself a few times to make sure I'm on that same page as well, but the different ideologies are beyond me. I just pray the good folks who ride under the Feminist banner come out on top, as opposed to the seemingly crazy people.)

Anyway, disregarding the Feminist remark, mostly...this. Isn't dressing in a way that makes you feel good/attractive, like...confidence-building 101? Granted there are rules regarding fashion and I can see where there can and sometimes is a difference between what YOU think you look good in and what you ACTUALLY look like in it, but isn't the bottom line that this is a person that's (hopefully) just trying to build some confidence in themselves? Yes, the man makes the clothes (which, now that I think on it this is a good example of that saying coming to pass in a way) but no person of either or any gender is born equal, and not all of us regardless of gender come into teens and adulthood with a full load of confidence in ourselves and who we are. If we're going to FIX that, we've got to start somewhere don't we?

Now for my own part, thanks to the folks here I've given up the dreaded hat. I had done so long before for reasons I don't really know, but when someone here pointed out that it was NOT something for casual wear and backed up their argument, I took that. That was a good warning and I appreciated it and I have not donned trillby again. I certainly appreciate it far more than "don't wear it because if you do you must be a misogynist douchebag jerk!"

I wore those hats because I felt good wearing them. End of story. I stopped, and today I'm glad I did because the more I look at pictures of those who wear it like I used to, the more I see where it just...doesn't fit. If people still want to wear it like that regardless? Go ahead. Your style, your thing. I'm not gonna think any more or less of you for it. Why?

Because everyone, including feminists, rad feminists, douchebags, frat-bros, "Nice Guys", normal people, we're all just puttering through life the best way we know how. The wise among us, when we're confronted with a better way of going through one facet of life or another, or when we make a mistake in life, we try to embrace that and/or learn from it. But that takes time and sometimes isn't easy. Few people are capable of just changing parts of who they are overnight. Accepting and learning from our failures isn't always easy for some of us. But I think a lot of us try to do these things.

I mean for the love of christ look at what some people in this topic are talking about: a bunch of people getting together and trying to be cool. When did any of us NOT want to be cool at some point in our lives? More importantly: how many of us did NOT do some stupid things in an effort to be cool? I sure as hell did some dumb stuff.

Yes, the behavior and philosophy needs to be corrected. But isn't crucifying these types of people and everything they enjoy only going to make them fight harder? How many "Nice Guys" have probably in a way felt validated by looking here on the Escapist and seeing all the hate? The logic of your arguments, the actual content, the things they could and NEED to learn is lost because of the rhetoric of hate and distaste towards them. If there's one thing an entire subculture based on being persecuted is good at it's shutting out the hate regardless of the actual content of the message and just burning the torch brighter.

Everyone has lessons to learn. No one is perfect. The world is messy and inconsistent and so we all just get by the best way we know how. There's nothing wrong with seeking to correct each other, to show each other that there's different ways to go through life that give better results, but but sitting around and bashing on people who haven't learned these lessons yet doesn't help them. It only makes them want to be what they are now even more.

I want to learn to be a better person. I want to be sure I never treat any woman I date poorly in any fashion. I never want her to be uncomfortable, or confined, or creeped out, or anything like that due to my actions. But if I DO do those things, I'd ask not to be raged at, bashed upside the head, and shunned. I'd ask to be told, and taught with patience about how to avoid doing it again. Yes, I may need a smack upside the head on occasion to make sure the message gets through, and that's okay. Don't rip my confidence to shreds, help me build it the RIGHT way. If everyone else has it right, help me to understand what I'm doing wrong and why. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm open to that.

Don't crucify me, teach me.

 

[Lightknight]

Just to point out, radical feminism does not equate with feminists with extreme beliefs.
Radical feminism is a proper school of thought within feminism.

"Proper school of thought"? What people using the term are generally referring to are the feminists who talk and act as though all men are filth and evil and that any male leadership should be actively squashed.

What they aren't talking about are feminist groups merely seeking equality. Radical Feminism in the common vernacular is every bit as bigoted as chauvinism.

It's true that the actual definition isn't necessarily the overthrowing of any male leaders. But it's pretty darn close, like a bolder on the ledge of a cliff. I believe that women deserve equality. I do not believe that I am somehow evil or oppressive or unfit to lead because of my organ or gender. The common use of the term isn't just referring to feminists who are active in their beliefs.

 

[Riot3000]

Mansplain is the dumbest thing ever I might as well ignore what women say about guys because thats womansplain.

perhaps its a bit more of a snarky term than it should be (and used in situations where the guy is geniunly trying to be helpful)....but basically its when guys (misguidedly) try and explain things to women eather unessicaryly (cause they think she doesnt understand because shes a woman) or when they themselfs may not actually know what they are talking about

[quote/]It is not even rad fems who bash fedora apparently the fedora was just some psuedo intellectual thing then for some reason it got associated with all things people love to get into a tizzy about the "nice guy" boogeyman, "friendzone" and insert other thing reddit hates.

its a sterotype like any other...even if you don't think the freindzone is a thing...[i/]at its absolute most basic[/i] putting a fedora on your head which is mis matched with your t shirt and shorts will not make you look unique or smart..it makes you look silly, nothing to do with "feminism" there


[quote/]Like others with logic have it is a F@#KING HAT.[/quote]

yep...no logic to be found here[/quote]

I know mansplaining is it is basically a and can STFU in conversation and can easily be turned around with saying womansplaining both would just be conversational stopping point that solves nothing.

If we are going to run with stereotypes and hold firm to fedora hate then you might as well suck it up and deal with the stigma that comes with mini skirt. I don't even know what the friendzone has to do with it just making a point that for all that stuff keeps getting attached to a fedora.

The difference is mini skirts look good and most women I know wear or have worn them.

There seems to be a specific guy who wears a fedora. Honestly I've never met a guy in a fedora who wasn't a massive dick. It's like the other day. I saw a guy in a bomber jacket, zipped up to the neck with jeans tucked into doc martins and a shaved head. Dude's totally free to dress like that but it's a look that has been entirely co-opted and claimed by a specific unfavourable sub-culture. Sure fedoras weren't created by these douchebages, and yeah not necessarily everyone who wears one is a dick but the association will always be there. The KKK didn't invent white hoods and robes but if you decide to wear one people will make assumptions.

Also there's the whole slut shaming thing. The shaming of mini-skirts is about controlling women's sexuality, the fedora thing is that A) it's generally worn with inappropriate clothing making the person look like an idiot and B) it's usually worn by a specific type of person. I'm not exagerrating when I say I have never met someone who wears a fedora who isn't a "nice guy". I'm sure they exist but they're elusive.

Really kkk hood? I know conversations devolve into someone being hitler but fedora on equivalent to a kkk hood.


This whole fedora thing stopped being about feminism long time ago and just been people being more pretentious than the stereotype they bash or look side ways at are.

 

[Weaver]

I present to you all: the double fedora

Spoiler

I think we've reached peak fedora.

 

[Vegosiux]

I think we've reached peak fedora.

Oh nonononono. Noooo. Totally going to one-up that one day. One day, I shall walk the streets brandishing not one, not two, but three hats!

 

[Riot3000]

I think we've reached peak fedora.

Oh nonononono. Noooo. Totally going to one-up that one day. One day, I shall walk the streets brandishing not one, not two, but three hats!

3 that is rookie level.

I shall walk down the streets with 4 on my head you can't handle my level of EUPHORIA.

 

[Lieju]

I'm a feminist and I wear this:

Spoiler

Because screw you, I have worn hats like fedoras before this whole stereotype was a thing.

 

[Dusty Fred]

I fully agree with the OP...

...but, because I'm essentially a coward, my trilby (let's face it, hardly anyone knows the difference) is staying in the cupboard. I got it when I realised I had only a few more months before male pattern baldness rendered any kind of hairstyle other than shaved inoperable. Mildly panicked, I looked at Yahtzee, missed the fact of his exception-proving-the-rule status and deluded myself that I could make it work. Nowadays, I stick to beanies. Or, on occasion, a flat cap (because I'm half-Yorkshireman so it's my birthright, dammit!)

Fedora-shaming is a case of one, relatively tiny, group spoiling something for everyone else. A phenomenon which, I have every confidence, is as old as the sun. The advent of memes makes it a helluva lot easier for such things to catch on but... it is what it is.

 

[Cenzton]

My hair has a horrible way of sticking in directions I don't want it to go. Regardless of length, style, whatever, even with gel there's a specific spot on my head which just makes it look horrible. My only way of shaping it into a semi-respectable looking form is to throw on a hat in the morning, and hope to god it stays down the rest of the day. So, from probably start of high school, I wore baseball hats for many many years. That was fine, I love baseball, and it served a practical purpose, so everything was fine.

And then I got a job at a corporate type place and started growing older and didn't feel like baseball hats were really an appropriate attire for someone in my position and age any more. So one day, upon purchasing some slacks in a shop, I also picked up a tribbly. I liked the way it looked, I liked the way it looked on me, and I figured I could wear that instead of baseball hats from then on.

But now, some years later, the general view of such a thing is hitting such a negative, that even though I've only had compliments about the hat (not a ton, mind you, just a couple here and there), and despite being told by others both in older age range and younger internet folk that hey, it actually looks good on you, I still am probably going to not bother bringing it to PAX because I don't want the first thought of everyone there who I possibly talk to to be "Hey, look at this fedora wearing neckbeard mofo over there." (even though I don't have a beard, don't wear trenchcoats, don't walk around yelling at everyone about how nice I am, etc).

Anyways, the point is that it's sad that I have to basically stop wearing something that I like because somehow suddenly the public perception is that I'm some giant douchebag if I do. But I guess it's not the first time in history that some article of clothing has had negative perception to go with it.

 

[The Youth Counselor]

I have shamed young trilby and fedora wearers long before they become associated with radical libertarians, MRA whiners, and sleazy pick up artists. My belief is that those hats belong with a nice tie and dress clothes. Most young men who wear fedoras today pair it with jeans, a t-shirt and/or an ill fitting trenchcoat. They are doing it wrong.

 

[hortez the champion of the frozen wastes]

Isn't it great how once a problem affects men it has to be dealt with immediately?

Yeah, you shouldn't judge people based on their appearances. But you know who gets judged based on their appearances like clockwork but are widely ignored?

Muslims (terrorist)
Black people (gangster/criminal)
Women (slut/*****/take your pick)
Transexuals (man in a dress/gay cross-dresser)

These people tolerate these things because they're subjected to it all the time; it would be exhausting to fight back every single time, to the point that many people have gotten so used to it that it just seems like normal behaviour (which is what happens with sexism quite a bit).

But any attempt at this kind of sweeping judgement towards white, straight men is met with immediate rejection. I'm not saying that anyone should tolerate being accused of something based on superficial features, but I think it's extremely telling of who holds the power in a society when a piece of clothing can be adopted by what is essentially an international hate group (men's rights activists are by no means organized, but are are often responsible for things like this: http://goo.gl/1qovvL or this: http://goo.gl/WrikCn ) and someones first reaction is "you shouldn't judge people based on what they wear!" Fair enough, but that isn't really the big issue here, is it.

OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERYONE WHO WEARS A FEDORA IS A MEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST.

But I think we can all agree no one should try and rock a Charlie Chaplin mustache. You can argue all day that you shouldn't be judged based on what you wear, but part of freedom of expression is understanding that some choices can and will reflect poorly on you.

Sometimes symbols get corrupted from their original meanings to mean something worse. The swastika used to be a Buddhist symbol. Hell, fedoras used to be a feminist symbol. I think it's time we accepted that fedora's have moved from being a poor fashion choice for awkward young men into being a symbol of a truly toxic subculture. (Sorry to hate on non-MRA fedora wearers, but from a fashion standpoint hats for men generally only work when paired with a matching outfit)

People make assumptions based on how you choose to present yourself. So if you choose to wear a hat that is associated with a certain thing, you should be prepared to deal with it instead of whining about how "the feminists are being mean!"

 

[Vegosiux]

People make assumptions based on how you choose to present yourself. So if you choose to wear a hat that is associated with a certain thing, you should be prepared to deal with it instead of whining about how "the feminists are being mean!"

How about judging people on the basis of what they, you know, do, instead of taking the path of least resistance just to feed one's own sense of smug superiority?

 

[Dusty Fred]

...My belief is that those hats belong with a nice tie and dress clothes. Most young men who wear fedoras today pair it with jeans, a t-shirt and/or an ill fitting trenchcoat. They are doing it wrong.

I agree with you there. Young men confused on that point should consult The Chap magazine for more information.

Isn't it great how once a problem affects men it has to be dealt with immediately?

Yeah, you shouldn't judge people based on their appearances. But you know who gets judged based on their appearances like clockwork but are widely ignored?

Muslims (terrorist)
Black people (gangster/criminal)
Women (slut/*****/take your pick)
Transexuals (man in a dress/gay cross-dresser)

These people tolerate these things because they're subjected to it all the time; it would be exhausting to fight back every single time, to the point that many people have gotten so used to it that it just seems like normal behaviour (which is what happens with sexism quite a bit).

But any attempt at this kind of sweeping judgement towards white, straight men is met with immediate rejection...

An interesting point. I wouldn't refute your charge that the scales are tipped, but I would suggest that any public figure with aspirations to a long career has to be mighty careful, nowadays, about making sweeping generalisations about women or minorities. Or, at least, that seems to be the way of it here in Britain. I'm not saying that this negates the problem you highlight, just that perhaps it may not be so cut & dried...

 

[Compatriot Block]

I think I remember back when they started banning Black Ops players who made their emblems swastikas.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.246367-Black-Ops-Swastika-Emblems-Will-Earn-Xbox-Live-Ban

A loooot of people were yelling about how the Nazis had co-opted a symbol that was previously a positive one, and so people could not prove that the ones on display were intended as Nazi symbols, and that they should not be banned.

While that is clearly a more extreme example than what is going on here, they are related. If you consciously dress yourself in a way that looks like a negatively perceived group, you should not be surprised when certain assumptions are made. Unfortunately for the fedora, it has become associated with an unpleasant community, and so a link has been made between "hat" and "euphoric stereotype."

I am aware that the fedora doesn't have the same history as the KKK's costume, but if an otherwise perfectly nice person wore a white robe and hood out in public, wouldn't you at least raise an eyebrow?

Again, I don't have anything against the fedora on its own. It sucks that a piece of clothing is now associated with that stereotype.

Spoiler

But to be honest, I've seen very few people that look good in one walking around or on the internet. Sorry guys. Things just go out of fashion. You're free to wear it of course, but not everyone is obligated to think it looks good.