ecoho said:
SilverHunter said:
... Does he know anything about The Old Republic? That isn't an example of planning things well in advance...? The market WASNT calling for the game to be free to play, the terrible design choices, barebones system and any real lack of... Anything, really, is what called for the free to play switch. Subscriptions work if you actually put some work into the game. The Old Republic LANGUISHED in developer hell post release, because Bioware thought it more important to bloat out the mid-game and completely ignore any and all concept of end game content. That isn't how MMOs work. You don't make the string holding the carrot thicker and let the carrot sit there rotting, you get fresh carrots and string them up, while also checking the line and stick.
But no, like a cat with ADD, Bioware kept playing with the goddang string. And now? You got an anemic single player game that likes to pretend it's an MMO, but realizes it's so filled with pointless bloat it actually throws enough experience at you to ignore ALL of it aside from your personal quests just to hit 50.
Mr. Moore. Go to Zynga, please, with the rest of the trash... Or join Mr. Mattock and Sir "Deal with it" in the bad persons corner.
I got to disagree with you on part of what you said, end game content is not the most important part of a MMO its the social aspect, nad SWTOR does that very well. I would expect your a hard core raider in the games you play but you have to remember with a few exceptions your the minority, so expanding story content that makes you want to play all 8 classes is the right thing to do. Now did they fuck up on post launch? yep no denying that, but not because they lacked end game it was due to the lack of legacy and the long wait for HK that caused them most of their problems.
Sorry to tell you, but your expectation would be let down severely. I don't raid hardcore, much less raid. So please... Don't try and stereotype me and base your entire post on that weak fallacy. They screwed up at launch because, AS I SAID, they lacked any end game. That doesn't mean just raiding, sorry to tell you. It means anything of value, or anything at all really, to do once you've finished leveling a character to 50. Legacy and all the mid-game bloat they added was to try and get people to ignore that and play other classes in order to unlock "perks". And again, when the leveling path is so stilted and bland as it is in the game, nobody is eager to replay the same story over and over again, with minor variations along the way from Story class quests. Champions Online had the same exact issues with leveling as well.
They spent six plus months doing nothing but bug fixes and adding distractions. They didn't add anything for players AT 50 already to do, which is a mistake. That does not,and I will emphasize it, DOES NOT mean they can't add to other parts of the game. And I find it funny you say Star Wars does social very well. I played the game, and the last thing I'd call it is social - but that's what happens when you create a single player game within an MMO. I had guilds I was in, casual included, breaking up because they got bored. Nobody wants to level more than one or two characters on either side, and nobody wants to just sit on a lvl 50 with absolutely nothing to do.
You don't keep subscribers for more than a month if you DONT give them anything to do.
thebobmaster said:
SilverHunter said:
... Does he know anything about The Old Republic? That isn't an example of planning things well in advance...? The market WASNT calling for the game to be free to play, the terrible design choices, barebones system and any real lack of... Anything, really, is what called for the free to play switch. Subscriptions work if you actually put some work into the game. The Old Republic LANGUISHED in developer hell post release, because Bioware thought it more important to bloat out the mid-game and completely ignore any and all concept of end game content. That isn't how MMOs work. You don't make the string holding the carrot thicker and let the carrot sit there rotting, you get fresh carrots and string them up, while also checking the line and stick.
But no, like a cat with ADD, Bioware kept playing with the goddang string. And now? You got an anemic single player game that likes to pretend it's an MMO, but realizes it's so filled with pointless bloat it actually throws enough experience at you to ignore ALL of it aside from your personal quests just to hit 50.
Mr. Moore. Go to Zynga, please, with the rest of the trash... Or join Mr. Mattock and Sir "Deal with it" in the bad persons corner.
Are you saying that the only MMO's with any work put into them are WoW and EVE Online?
I'm not completely disagreeing with you on TOR, by the way. It was released way too early, without nearly enough endgame stuff. They've added quite a bit more content in, but first impressions make a big difference, something that TOR botched about as badly as you can.
My comment was more in reference to you saying that any MMO can make a subscription model work with just a bit of effort when all of two MMO's have actually done so. By saying that, you are saying that Everquest II, ESO, and pretty much any MMO still around just weren't trying, which I find dubious.
Quite the opposite really. Everquest and Everquest 2 were subscription games for the longest time. Even after World of Warcraft came out. Those games had a player base willing to pay to play, and continue to do so. That was earned. My comment was in reference to games that have to switch immediately upon release in the market now, or at least up to a good few years ago. Work is a little vague though I'll admit...
Subscriptions work, as long as the developers work to keep it engaging and easy to stay with the game, making it 'sticky' so to speak. Wildstar failed spectacularly at that. Elder Scrolls Online stumbled, yes, but they managed to turn themselves around. They also aren't strictly free to play either. While people were sure to buy ESO, you'd have a difficult time selling them on a subscription. It's a game that has gotten by for quite a while by its own modding community to an extent along with a set of systems that people love to play in, especially with said mods. And while they have been doing good, they are still missing the point on some things... Especially with the Veteran Rank system. It's been railed against since day one, and even after claiming they were going to remove it years ago it's still in place and being used to hate content. Which people hate. I'd be much more happier to sub to that game in particular if I wasn't required to practically go through every other starting area and then some just to get to a point where I may be able to do new content. That's easily as bad as Wildstars absurdly done raid attune meant mechanics they expected 90% of their player base to want, when it was really just the same 5% who think something akin to WoW Vanilla is top tier raid content.