Final Fantasty VII - Taking Fandom Too Far

Lord Krunk

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While you have an interesting review here, NewClassic, renting FF7 is not the way to go. This is a game that will consume A LOT of time, and renting will prove to be unsatisfying for the player.
 

Novajam

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[img_inline caption="Looking back now, the game is awfully blocky." height="200" width="265" align="left"]http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/uploaded_images/ff7-700526.jpg[/img_inline]

Hey look. A Mii.

Great review. I've never played FF7, since it came out when I was four and my brother's description of the game as "grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, boss, die, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, repeat" is a bit off-putting.

I've got bundles of music from various FF games though.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

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avykins said:
First off I did not intend to insult you (so if you took offence I do apologise) I merely meant that for alot of gamers this was their first RPG. I origianlly played it when I was around about 10 so once again I was not insulting you I just meant that kids ususally cant understand it.
I found it twisted myself but then replayed it when I was a little older and understood it perfectly without need of any sequals to clarify things.
Also if we were given a plain stright line boring story then people would criticize it for that. So either way it loses. Besides who really wants a game that leaves you with no questions ? It did wrap up most of the key points as far as I can remember and those tiny few that were left out, well, use your imagination.
As for graphics They never stuck me as look weird or out of place. Star Ocean had beautiful little 2D sprites running around on 3D BG's. Now that looked out of place.
Also I was not hating on you just offering my personal opinion which just happened to differ from yours.
Okay, I'll admit, I've been fighting a cold for that past few days, and I get irritated as hell when I'm sick. I've had a short fuse and a hair trigger for the past few days, so I'm a little snappy. I'm sorry, I should stop reading posts with rage-tinted glasses.

You have my apologies.

Amnestic said:
Other than that minor discrepancy of factual knowledge, I concur. After revisiting FF7 on the PC recently to relive my childhood memories, I found myself somewhat disappointed by the whole thing. I can safely say that, for me, FF7 didn't stand the test of time.
Whoops. That's what I get for playing both of these games in rapid succession. I should fix that up a bit.

Shadow88 said:
This is what I think on the issue:

From the desk of Darth Cal (My Sith Lord alter ego)

"I have alread condemed most of the the lead male protaganists of the Final Fantasy series to permanantly have their Manhood Licenses revoked but the person of Cloud has a specialy cruel fate.

Mr. Cloud I find you guilty of the crime of Cross Dressing, Gayness and most heinously attempting to pass yourself off as hard core. I hear by sentence you to have your genitals put though a VERY RUSTY, FILTHY MEAT GRINDER. (Zaps Cloud with Force Lighting) TAKE HER AWAY.
(This is actually a sample from a humor feature I'm working on;)
No offense, but this reads like the article as written by the "Oh God, Homophobic" High School Football Team right after a nice steamy shower and lots of butt-patting. Downplay the masculinity attacks, they read as if written from inside the closet.

Maet said:
I remember the first time I beat FFVII, I watched the ending screen (all the stars with the music playing) for about a half hour waiting for something to actually resolve.

The best part of FFVII was the materia system and Tifa's victory pose.
To be fair, about half of the setups in the game were cleanly resolved, although the other half left me wishing they would have at least given the player more than a few passing mentions.

-Seraph- said:
Don't say I did anything wrong. If I understood everything about the game and you or anyone else didn't, well that's how it is. I KNOW by my own experience, that I DO understand the plot and everything that happens in the game. I saw very little plot holes while playing, but if you wanna believe that go ahead, I won't stop you but don't say I got it wrong.
That was the rage-tinted glasses. Otherwise, I do think the writing needs to be cleaned up, and told in a less irritating manner. It could be done in a non-linear, but still clear and concise manner. Instead, it seems like it's meant to be unclear. Just my opinion, I won't disagree with you, as you're very right.

Wyatt said:
I still think FF7 should continue to hold its place as the best RPG of all time while agreeing with the OP's opinion to a large extent. the thing that he fails to take into consideration is the just 'jeewizz' factor of the game for a lot of us. my very first RPG experience was on the old NES with i think it was FF3 or maybe 2? Hell, I don't know i only really recall spending days trying to find some way into this valley from the world map that and little metal blurp or blurbs or something, you fought the green versions at level 1, but their metal cousin were only 1 HP , you missed almost every swing, they always ran after your first attack and you got a stupid amount of EXP if you ever did get lucky enough to kill them. kinda like those pot things in the end of FF7.

Anyhow with that version of FF being more or less my benchmark for RPGs you can see the shock and awe that FF7 was. for me its the first real example of a 'modern' RPG. With great depth, a story that is more than 'see spot, see spot run', an equipment system that is far more than upgrading from a rusty sword to a bronze sword and eventually too a steel one, and a battle system that was more than mashing the attack button or once in a while trying to run (though admittedly not much more but why fix something that isn't really broken). For me, it was the first RPG that created a world I could get into from spending hours down at the beach trying to get a peek at pixel boobs, to becoming a world famous bird racer/breeder even their version of Disney Land was great. Who wouldn't like to visit that place for real?

Sure, loads of games have been done since then and have been done much better, but when asked what i think is the best RPG of all time i still say FF7. though ill add that with the choices since then it would be hard to hold that opinion NOW by someone totaly new to RPGs.

all the things that you list as flaws i count as part of its charm. one could argue that the Roman Coliseum is a pile of rocks that are nothing but a crumbling mess taking up space that could be put to a better use. one mans trash is another treasure though. FF7 holds a place in MY heart akin to my first Kiss, or my First time having sex, or my first time driving a car. sure the car ws a wreck, and the chick was bone ugly (for the sex and the kiss) but its still special. i think you will find alot of people think this way.
Trying not to sound pretentious, but:
 Best adj. - Of the highest quality, excellence, or standing.

Best means just that, better than everything else. You disagree with that by saying "I say it's the best" (first bolded part) and later saying "later games are done better." Perhaps you were going for best RPG experience. But the experience, and the game itself, are two different things. I review on a game's merit, not how I felt 10 years ago when I first played it.

Besides, if you want to talk experience, then the game that did me in for amazing would have to be Earthbound, for the SNES. Other options include Fallout 2, Chrono Trigger, and FF VI. These all came before FF VII, and gave me a better gaming experience, as well as gaming merit. This varies from person to person, so I can't say you're wrong with your experience, although looking at the root wording, my point still stands.

Still, I think you're onto something. Props for showing a good eye for alternatives, which I rarely see these days.

chronobreak said:
I dunno, glad you voiced your opinion, but really, I think it does a disservice to the game to make people not even want to play it. Not everybody is a fanboy, and anybody can agree FF7 is a unique experience for even this generation of gamers. People should try it, form their own opinions, and move from there. The people that really loathe this game are in the minority, though that may change over time, this game is a classic. Undeniably.

And, I will say, with age and nostalgia, things sometimes seem better than they were long ago. But, play this game, with no pretenses, no expectations of graphics, draw distance and cel-shading, and maybe you won't be disappointed. Just sayin'.
I think you missed the last part. The game isn't bad, I'd dare say it was even good, for it's time. By modern standards, it's still a decent game. I suggest everyone still play this game, I just warn them not to buy into the hype. Why is everyone reading my review so negatively?

Lord Krunk said:
While you have an interesting review here, NewClassic, renting FF7 is not the way to go. This is a game that will consume A LOT of time, and renting will prove to be unsatisfying for the player.
You bring up a good point, but I think what I was trying to say with "Rent" is make it a trial by fire. Instead of coughing up $30-$80 on eBay to get this game, they should rent it to see if they like it. If not, then they're only out $5 or so bucks, if so, then they can decide whether or not it's worth $30+ to them.

Novajam said:
Great review. I've never played FF7, since it came out when I was four and my brother's description of the game as "grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, boss, die, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, repeat" is a bit off-putting.

I've got bundles of music from various FF games though.
I'd say give it a shot. It's not a bad game, although it's not great. Just try hard not to get caught up in the hype, as if you listen to fandom, you'll be very disappointed by the final product.
 

chronobreak

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What happened over the last few years where it's not cool to be a fan of games anymore? It's like a scarlet letter, saying you love a game that's heralded by most people to be a great game, and people write you off as a fanboy. What gives? If I say how much I love Bioshock, it's the only FPS I like, I'm a fanboy and therefore my opinion is moot? I think the whole thing may be a product of the console wars, exclusive titles, and whatnot. What do you think?

Also, I did like the review. Being an FF7 "fanboy" myself, I always like to hear people's unique tastes on FF7's unique experience.
 

Quaidis

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Honestly, I was a little disappointed with this thread. I went into this review thinking 'Oh, he's going to give a synopsis on FF7, then bash all of the sequels'. Because the title says 'Taking Fandom Too Far', which in a way loosely translates to 'I'm going to talk about the FF7 spinoff games and how they're all created because of the Fandom'.

As for the original FF7, I have nothing against it. I can pick up that game every ten years and play it with absolutely no difficulty (exception to the PC version, being full of bugs, glitches, crashes, and all that). I had no problems understanding the plot. The game was done right, and even the minigames are still fun to enjoy. Back in the day when the game first came out, it was amazing. Many people made their PS1 purchase because of that game.
 

sheic99

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I've never really been into RPGs, but as a video game nerd I still no the plot synopsis of this game and have seen the movie. I just never understood watching characters stand in lines and attack other enemies attack. Although, I still say Doom is the best thing to happen to gaming ever.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

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chronobreak said:
What happened over the last few years where it's not cool to be a fan of games anymore? It's like a scarlet letter, saying you love a game that's heralded by most people to be a great game, and people write you off as a fanboy. What gives? If I say how much I love Bioshock, it's the only FPS I like, I'm a fanboy and therefore my opinion is moot? I think the whole thing may be a product of the console wars, exclusive titles, and whatnot. What do you think?

Also, I did like the review. Being an FF7 "fanboy" myself, I always like to hear people's unique tastes on FF7's unique experience.
While I'd love to discuss this point in length, this is neither the time nor place. This is a review of the game Final Fantasty VII, not a review of FF VII's fans and experience. As a game, the game isn't the grand epic masterpiece people make of it.

It's a good point, but I not once give the fanboys a hard time during this review. If you're reading it like that, then you've misinterpreted my words.

Quaidis said:
Honestly, I was a little disappointed with this thread. I went into this review thinking 'Oh, he's going to give a synopsis on FF7, then bash all of the sequels'. Because the title says 'Taking Fandom Too Far', which in a way loosely translates to 'I'm going to talk about the FF7 spinoff games and how they're all created because of the Fandom'.

As for the original FF7, I have nothing against it. I can pick up that game every ten years and play it with absolutely no difficulty (exception to the PC version, being full of bugs, glitches, crashes, and all that). I had no problems understanding the plot. The game was done right, and even the minigames are still fun to enjoy. Back in the day when the game first came out, it was amazing. Many people made their PS1 purchase because of that game.
Read the above. I'm about about reviewing games, not their fans or fanboys.

harhol said:
chronobreak said:
What happened over the last few years where it's not cool to be a fan of games anymore? It's like a scarlet letter, saying you love a game that's heralded by most people to be a great game, and people write you off as a fanboy. What gives? If I say how much I love Bioshock, it's the only FPS I like, I'm a fanboy and therefore my opinion is moot? I think the whole thing may be a product of the console wars, exclusive titles, and whatnot. What do you think?
Excellent point. I completely agree.

For me, Final Fantasy VII remains the pinnacle of Japanese role-playing.

Most of the OP's criticisms are rather silly (blocky graphics?) but the one which alarmed me the most was the idea that unresolved narrative is by default a weakness. On the contrary, creating a believable and compelling game world is exactly what gives you the liberty to leave loose ends for the viewer/player to think about. The core plot itself isn't confusing or convoluted at all.
Video games, RPGs especially, are long narratives. You're asking the player to invest hours, often spanned across several days, on an emotional and personal attachment to the characters and their plight. As such, it's a form of stress on the player/reader. That's what makes Catharsis such a powerful force, especially when talking about any form of interactive entertainment. As such, forcing a player to build a certain level, and leaving it unresolved is not a sign of good or compelling writing. Leaving morals and metaphors for the player to ponder, sure. That's subtle, that's subtext. Leaving actual events and goings-on in question is a pure and simple no-no, at least in my book. I invest time in a narrative. When I do, I want it to have a strong resolution. Considering each FF game has a simple opening point and ending point, even if said title had sequels, then it should resolve the issues. FF VII, in my mind, did not.

As such, it fails as the narrative it is trying to be. Perhaps not to you, but to me, it dropped the ball. Game over, man, game over.

Also, as far as the blocky graphics go, it was a single, simple statement. I didn't wax poetic about how bad the graphics were (past tense), I mention how bad the graphics are (present tense). The game doesn't look good anymore, that's all I'm saying. I've explained this about 3 times now...

Also, sadly, de-railing my own thread, I think this needs to be addressed before I'm hammered by more fans of this title...

Fandom: Prose and Cons
Here's the deal, folks. You've asked, and now I answer. I won't hate you for being a fan of FF VII, otherwise I would be a hypocrite. If you want to hear me wax poetic about a series, then look up my reviews for Earthbound [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.70474] and Mother 3 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.75628]. No one is immune to fandom, or liking of a series. This game, though, seems to spawn the most defensive and aggressive players I have ever seen from a series. This thread alone has gotten countless people to pick my review apart simply because I did it to their favorite game. Personally, I feel that it's fair, so I try to stay calm about it.

But here's the biggest problem, people think I'm fanboy bashing. Hold the phone, folks. Someone point out to me, since I clearly missed it, where I say "Fanboys are the scourge of existence"? Go ahead, I'll wait.

In the title? "Taking Fandom Too Far?" I'll stand behind that statement. People are defending this as "The Best RPG of All Time" while admitting that there are better. As such, the fandom has painted this game as something it is not. As such, I feel that this is a statement that has stepped over the line, and gone too far.

Other than that, though, where? Nowhere? All I say is the game is too hyped for what it is. It's a simple, mostly fun RPG that has a complicated narrative and several identifiable characters.

I have no crimson slash against fans. I have nothing against people who are devoted to this game. I'm simply saying the things people say about this game aren't entirely accurate. My problem with "fanboys" is that they just argue without facts.

I've got nothing against fans of the series, just the unfair praise they give it.

That is all.
 

Quaidis

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NewClassic, you either didn't read a thing I said or have your head too deep into the thought that every time 'fandom' is mentioned, it must automatically mean fan or 'something directly about the fan, him/herself'. You replied with "I review games, not fans" when my post was, "Why did you make a thread about Fandom, but only review the one game, when there are 20,000 terrible game-milking sequels you could have gone into more entertaining reviews over?" I merely stated that, by the title, I thought you were going to review Dirge, Crisis, and the others. After all, we've seen many reviews of FF7; what you said in your review was either nothing new over the last 10 years, or over-exaggerated versions of nothing new. If you reviewed the other games as a whole in possible retrospective of the first, I believe it would have received a better reaction by those on this board.
 

Amnestic

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AceDiamond said:
digging through tombs to unearth vampires that join your party
A basement is not a tomb!
There were other coffins and it was in a separate room which you had to get a key to access as I recall, while the basement itself was not a tomb, the room which contained the vampire could be defined as such! ;D I know your comment was mostly in jest, but I thought I'd respond anyway.
 

Dele

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Well if asked to choose between old Active Time Battle or the new diablolike un-FF battlesystem, the old one wins 100-0. Also materia system was something that later Final Fantasys couldnt overcome (unless you really wanted to see Yuna hit for 99999).
 

AceDiamond

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Amnestic said:
AceDiamond said:
digging through tombs to unearth vampires that join your party
A basement is not a tomb!
There were other coffins and it was in a separate room which you had to get a key to access as I recall, while the basement itself was not a tomb, the room which contained the vampire could be defined as such! ;D I know your comment was mostly in jest, but I thought I'd respond anyway.
Well the reason I don't think it implicitly counts as a tomb is because of the critical piece of info in one of the books in the mansion that mentions "a man locked in the basement" and the room where he's in can only be unlocked via a "basement key". Said key is not needed for anything else (and in fact you don't even need to get it to progress in the main quest since Vincent was an optional party member)

I was also going to say he isn't a Vampire but aside from not drinking blood and being able to walk in daylight, he does possess a lot of vampire-esque abilities (including the ability to transform into other animals/objects/monsters, something that hasn't been used a lot outside of Bram Stoker's Dracula)

You are right though that my interjection was partially in jest, but also serious at the same time...esp. cause there was no digging involved ;)
 

Panayjon

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harhol said:
NewClassic said:
Someone point out to me, since I clearly missed it, where I say "Fanboys are the scourge of existence"? Go ahead, I'll wait. All I say is the game is too hyped for what it is.
My issue is not with your particular viewpoint but with the recent torrent of backlash against FFVII. Perhaps that explains my own personal (over)reaction to the review. Over the past two or three years it's gone from being a highly revered, arguably untouchable gaming landmark to being the go-to whipping boy for RPGs, Japan, fans and even games in general. Simply expressing an appreciation for FFVII is about the most unfashionable thing you can do right now. Picking on FFVII is so de rigueur that I can't help but greet another critique with a weary sigh. Sorry.

Another thing that annoys me is that it's held to different, far harsher standards. Rather than being judged for what it did at the time (like every other game), it's instead judged according to modern standards. The result is that it's frequently criticized for upholding clichés and trends that it popularized! The "emo" protagonist archetype is the obvious example.

edit: and the title of the thread, whether intentional or not, is flame bait.
The problem is the highly revered part. Too many people took it way too seriously. They were treating it akin to the way religious extremists revere their holy texts. I remember when it was still new somebody leapt to their death because a certain brunette in red died.

Fanaticism is never justified and I think that any recent harshness to FFVII now is a result of people realizing, "Man, we were really deep into that. Whew... man I hope that never happens again." Also, the only thing FFVII really brought to the table was exposure to the West, which in itself it to be commended but isn't anything glorious.

ATB was already in prior FF games, a few characters in FFVI had limit break-esque moves, Materia already existed in the form of Magicite/Espers, Multiple interchangeable party members had already been done, and even a 3D RPG called Wild Arms had already been released a year prior.

The only thing that comes to mind now that I could comment about being revolutionary is the sense of cinematic drama the game brought, with its stunning (at the time) visuals, engrossing music, and convoluted but epic storyline. Few games have so much internal introspection, a fact that you might consider both good and bad. I wanted to play a videogame, not read "The Stranger". In my mind it didn't straddle the fine line between pretentious and insightful, but rather jumped between the two sides at regular intervals.

---

Additionally the "I could do better" remarks are a benefit to hindsight, back then you didn't have the tools to do what you can now. They didn't have Zbrush... hell I doubt they even had mesh smooth back then.
 

GyroCaptain

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The biggest thing that cheesed me off about the meld of 2d background and 3d characters was the fixed camera, which made it so that sometimes Cloud's enormous head blocked things you wanted to look at and otherwise meant remote control of yellow hairspikes in the distance. I have the highest regard for the story in general, but the clone/not clone/ story of Zack seamed quite loopy. I also found the Weapons to be a rather silly way of inserting timesink value for "true fan" random encounter level-grinders and few else. Sure, you had few choices to make, but the story being told was worthwhile and very playable.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

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Dele said:
Well if asked to choose between old Active Time Battle or the new diablo-like un-FF battle system, the old one wins 100-0. Also materia system was something that later Final Fantasies couldn't overcome (unless you really wanted to see Yuna hit for 99999).
Actually, if you want to talk nitty gritty, the current generation Final Fantasty XII closely resembles a hybrid of another Playstation Squaresoft title, called Vagrant Story, and the MMO Final Fantasy XI. The system is so similar I would even vouch that some of the same team members had a hand in both creations, although I couldn't tell you for sure.

AceDiamond said:
Amnestic said:
AceDiamond said:
digging through tombs to unearth vampires that join your party
A basement is not a tomb!
There were other coffins and it was in a separate room which you had to get a key to access as I recall, while the basement itself was not a tomb, the room which contained the vampire could be defined as such! ;D I know your comment was mostly in jest, but I thought I'd respond anyway.
Well the reason I don't think it implicitly counts as a tomb is because of the critical piece of info in one of the books in the mansion that mentions "a man locked in the basement" and the room where he's in can only be unlocked via a "basement key". Said key is not needed for anything else (and in fact you don't even need to get it to progress in the main quest since Vincent was an optional party member)

I was also going to say he isn't a Vampire but aside from not drinking blood and being able to walk in daylight, he does possess a lot of vampire-esque abilities (including the ability to transform into other animals/objects/monsters, something that hasn't been used a lot outside of Bram Stoker's Dracula)

You are right though that my interjection was partially in jest, but also serious at the same time...esp. cause there was no digging involved ;)
True. I really should proof these things through someone else before posting them... I make so many simple mistakes. Appreciate the factual corrections, I'll keep those in mind.

Panayjon said:
The problem is the highly revered part. Too many people took it way too seriously. They were treating it akin to the way religious extremists revere their holy texts. I remember when it was still new somebody leapt to their death because a certain brunette in red died.

Fanaticism is never justified and I think that any recent harshness to FF VII now is a result of people realizing, "Man, we were really deep into that. Whew... man I hope that never happens again." Also, the only thing FF VII really brought to the table was exposure to the West, which in itself it to be commended but isn't anything glorious.

ATB was already in prior FF games, a few characters in FFVI had limit break-esque moves, Materia already existed in the form of Magicite/Espers, Multiple interchangeable party members had already been done, and even a 3D RPG called Wild Arms had already been released a year prior.

The only thing that comes to mind now that I could comment about being revolutionary is the sense of cinematic drama the game brought, with its stunning (at the time) visuals, engrossing music, and convoluted but epic storyline. Few games have so much internal introspection, a fact that you might consider both good and bad. I wanted to play a videogame, not read "The Stranger". In my mind it didn't straddle the fine line between pretentious and insightful, but rather jumped between the two sides at regular intervals.
As far as the factual errors, technically, the Materia system was completely new. Each spell and effect could be customized completely, instead of being lodged in with which Esper you pegged onto your character (FF VI) or which job you chose to become (FF I, III, and V). As well as that, Materia allowed you to combine effects, such as Double Attack, Quad Attack, and Multi-Magic. Although that's splitting hairs, it is a detail to be noted, which is why I say the Materia system was unique. It is still different enough to call it unique, even from the Draw System, used in FF VIII.

You're right about "Limit Breaks" in VI, for which I apologize. Although, this game was the first to actively display their requirements, and allow for interchangeable skills to be allotted to them, if I am not mistaken. Although, knowing me, I probably am...

As far as ATB system, I'm well aware it's not new. I even stated as much in the review. Oddly enough, though, I mislabeled it. The ATB system first appeared in '91, in the title FF IV. It was followed by V in '92, then VI in '94, and later Chrono Trigger in '95.[sup][1 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_IV]][2 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_V]][3 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VI]][4 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger]][/sup]

GyroCaptain said:
I have the highest regard for the story in general, but the clone/not clone/ story of Zack seemed quite loopy.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. Except I'm also thinking the entire narrative could've used some cleaning.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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NewClassic, thou holdest FFVII about as sacred as I do. Slaughter that motherf**kin cow! Kill it good! Even for the day the story was odd and jolty and there was no reason to have the silly SD characters outside of battle. It is important gaming history, but unlike the 16 bit FF games or even FFIX, it clearly lacks charm.