FinCEN leak shows some of the extent to which banks need to be burned.

Revnak

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No, right now the system is the ONLY thing keeping them alive, you have to have an actual plan here rather than fly by your ass or all you propose is worse death than we have already. Your plan is no better if it only results in longer term suffering and more death than the existing plan. You see people cannot even start their own businesses or work for themselves when everyone around them is too poor and desperate to buy anything as well. You have to build a foundation for any of that to work and we haven't done that yet.
Our current system has no plan for resolving its own impending collapse. That I am presenting little better should hardly be called a condemnation of my own argument, but an obvious response to our circumstances.
 
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lil devils x

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Property you’ve no power to hold isn’t your property, and the current fuckery is what grants the wealthy the power to hold that property. Without it, their wealth is as illusory as their right to it. When this all falls apart, when we’re choking on the dust that used to be our rivers, it is the people who will have the power to loot their mansions and drag them down to live and suffer among us. Their wealth and power over us is through and by the financial institutions and state around us. Without that, they die as easy as any of us.
They have the power to hold considering they can buy their own private armies now. That was given to them when we let trump happen so thanks to all those who thought it was okay to let happen.

When it falls apart? isn't that what you are proposing here? You are delusional if you think you are going to have any "power" or force" or are going to drag anyone down to live among you. They own all the wealth in the wealthiest nation on earth. You understand that means their own private country if they like. They will just toss you out if you become too much trouble. Who do you think the police and military work for anyway? They will just deem you a terrorist and be done with you and nothing else will come of it. You aren't actually taking any of that from them. They still have it all and you have nothing in the end.

You don't even have a plan here to make anything better, like at all. Not today, tomorrow, next year.. nope. People in reality here are worried about feeding their kids now and are not going to want to make a bigger hell zone for their kids to grow up in by following you to this plan to nowhere.
 

lil devils x

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Our current system has no plan for resolving its own impending collapse. That I am presenting little better should hardly be called a condemnation of my own argument, but an obvious response to our circumstances.
There is, but we have to get GOP out of control. You aren't actually presenting little better, you are presenting worse.. The reality is they have the military, the police, their own private anything they want and they can be all safe on their own private island while they watch everyone suffer safely from afar. It is delusional to think you can change anything that way in this day and age. How well did it work of for Syria? That look like it is better for anyone there about now? So much for making Assad come down and suffer with the peasants eh? Even if a revolution was able to happen at all, we would not evens see stability within our lifetimes for anything to be better for anyone, all the while making your war destroy the world even faster than before. Think climate change is bad now? It would be so much worse if the US fell into civil war. Besides the Russians would be allied with the White Nationalists and they would slaughter the left even in your best case scenarios.
 

Seanchaidh

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They were gambling with other peoples money and you can be damn sure the wealthy would make sure they got theirs before those at the bottom had a chance to access anything
That's avoidable. Just don't listen to them. They're not the ones with nuclear weapons (and other various gadgets, many of which are a lot more useful than nuclear weapons practically speaking). These are choices, not inevitabilities. The fact of the matter is that our governments are of such a character that they chose to prioritize bank balancesheets over keeping people housed. We don't have to organize our economies in such a manner that we depend on the say-so of banks or other owners of assets in order to produce things. We just do.

You have to understand that if we " disrupt" the ruling elite like that without a plan in place, they have it currently designed to where the poor and middle class are the first to be crushed. We have to actually prop up the middle and lower class BEFORE we take on the ruling elite. Failing to do so will necessarily result widespread mass suffering and millions of deaths. It is all about the plan to get from point A to Point B that matters. The details are what is important here. Right now the lower and middle classes do not have the savings or any ability to even survive a crisis. They are tapped out. Many cannot even go a week without income. Our food banks are empty. Our shelters are overflowing and we are in the process of a mass eviction crisis. Unless we get footing now, people will unnecessarily die. We don't have to do it this way, this is what happens when you fly by your ass without a plan. We have to have a step by step plan as to how transition AND keep everyone alive in the process or everything goes to shit fast when people become desperate and start doing whatever it takes to try and survive.

You want to avoid that scenario at all costs, as hopes of recovery to be able to obtain things like Universal healthcare, ending homelessness, and UBI become impossible of reaching any time soon once it devolves into chaos, desperation and despair. Without detailed plans, back up plans and backup to your backup plans, all you do is make everything worse, not better in the end and eliminate the possibility of it even being able to get better.
My post was about what the US government (principally, and others to a lesser extent) could have done and the nature of the control exerted over it by banks. A general strike that confronts the banksters and so on directly would indeed be chaotic in large part because the government would probably side with its wealthy campaign contributors as it has done in the past; that's not the issue I was taking on. If the government simply wanted to organize a different way of doing things, it absolutely could do it and when it's a powerful government like the United States, it could do it with reasonable stability if enough of the relevant politicians desired. It didn't want to, and the reasons for that are not physical, metaphysical, democratic, or economic. They're a matter of choices. Our leadership would defer to the liberal understanding of property rights and the courts who uphold it and they would (and did) have their police departments enforce it. And so people lost their homes and Goldman Sachs thrived.
 

Revnak

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They have the power to hold considering they can buy their own private armies now. That was given to them when we let trump happen so thanks to all those who thought it was okay to let happen.
Armies they purchase with money that is meaningless without the backing of financial institutions and the state.
When it falls apart? isn't that what you are proposing here? You are delusional if you think you are going to have any "power" or force" or are going to drag anyone down to live among you. They own all the wealth in the wealthiest nation on earth. You understand that means their own private country if they like. They will just toss you out if you become too much trouble. Who do you think the police and military work for anyway? They will just deem you a terrorist and be done with you and nothing else will come of it. You aren't actually taking any of that from them. They still have it all and you have nothing in the end.
We will all burn together when we burn, Devils. Their half-baked scheme of “fortress America” will fail. It will fail miserably. The millions will storm past our walls. As the walls grow ever tighter, we will join in the storming of them. The Middle Ages were not ruled by the Roman Senatorial elite who built the fortresses Europe was ruled from, but the inheritors of the hungry masses they left starving at the gates. Our case will share at least that similarity.
You don't even have a plan here to make anything better, like at all. Not today, tomorrow, next year.. nope. People in reality here are worried about feeding their kids now and are not going to want to make a bigger hell zone for their kids to grow up in by following you to this plan to nowhere.
Neither do you. This is a problem voting will not resolve. The Democrats will not fix it. Our government will perpetuate it into eternity if able. I’m not honestly calling for a collapse, but such a thing is inevitable without radical change to our financial institutions, and if that is unworkable without collapse, collapse with less steps is my choice.
 
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lil devils x

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That's avoidable. Just don't listen to them. They're not the ones with nuclear weapons (and other various gadgets, many of which are a lot more useful than nuclear weapons practically speaking). These are choices, not inevitabilities. The fact of the matter is that our governments are of such a character that they chose to prioritize bank balancesheets over keeping people housed. We don't have to organize our economies in such a manner that we depend on the say-so of banks or other owners of assets in order to produce things. We just do.



My post was about what the US government (principally, and others to a lesser extent) could have done and the nature of the control exerted over it by banks. A general strike that confronts the banksters and so on directly would indeed be chaotic in large part because the government would probably side with its wealthy campaign contributors as it has done in the past; that's not the issue I was taking on. If the government simply wanted to organize a different way of doing things, it absolutely could do it and when it's a powerful government like the United States, it could do it with reasonable stability if enough of the relevant politicians desired. It didn't want to, and the reasons for that are not physical, metaphysical, democratic, or economic. They're a matter of choices. Our leadership would defer to the liberal understanding of property rights and the courts who uphold it and they would (and did) have their police departments enforce it. And so people lost their homes and Goldman Sachs thrived.
Why would you think they were NOT the one's with the nuclear weapons? Look who literally has the nuke codes in the US right now. The wealthy control everything. The man with the Nuke codes as e speak was CHEERING for the banking crisis and told everyone how great it was an opportunity to buy up the homes of those who were foreclosed on. Trump literally WANTS to make this happen again.


The problem is when they have everything and the people have nothing, when the people lose, they just die because they no longer even have enough to stay alive at all anymore.

The government listens to those who hold the entire deck because they are the ones paying them to. We have to take our " small accomplishments" where we can get them because the alternative is so much worse. At least under Obama, we had the lowest homelessness in a decade. Obama didn't cause the collapse, he actually tried to keep people in their homes and he turned it around to reduce homelessness. That is all being undone right now however, as Trump declared war on Obama's low income access to the suburbs and the constant increase in homelessness since he took office. We literally just put the people in control that wanted to make the housing crisis happen and see it as a great thing to kick people out of their homes due to an ignorant campaign to " punish the Dem's for not doing enough", when the reality is by doing that at all we are sealing our own fate to make sure it never gets better. The democrats baby steps were still a huge improvement when you look at the big green mountain there on the right of that chart that we have to climb. We are being punished by the wealthy in control of the white house and senate as we speak now for DARING to pass banking regulation at all or try to help the poor. The first thing they did was deregulate the banks so they can do it again.
 

Revnak

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Devils the natural consequence of your arguments here is literally just Doomerism, thus my absurd rebuttals. If we’ve no option but collapse and death, I would like to ensure the ones who limited us to those options will suffer the same consequences.
 

lil devils x

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Armies they purchase with money that is meaningless without the backing of financial institutions and the state.

We will all burn together when we burn, Devils. Their half-baked scheme of “fortress America” will fail. It will fail miserably. The millions will storm past our walls. As the walls grow ever tighter, we will join in the storming of them. The Middle Ages were not ruled by the Roman Senatorial elite who built the fortresses Europe was ruled from, but the inheritors of the hungry masses they left starving at the gates. Our case will share at least that similarity.

Neither do you. This is a problem voting will not resolve. The Democrats will not fix it. Our government will perpetuate it into eternity if able. I’m not honestly calling for a collapse, but such a thing is inevitable without radical change to our financial institutions, and if that is unworkable without collapse, collapse with less steps is my choice.
They have the backing of financial institutions all over the world in many currencies and numerous assets these are the wealthiest people in the world, not just the US. I am not sure how you think you are going to stop them. They can buy armies from wherever they like, including the US under the guise of " patriotism". You don't even have a plan here for making your mess nor do you have a plan for cleaning it up. There is not going to be anyone " storming past our walls" This isn;t the middle ages and they do not even have to try hard.

We actually DO have a plan here. When Dems manage to get control again, we make Puerto Rico and DC both states, giving Dems a more comfortable majority so that they can actually have more time in office than just having time to clean the republican shit smeared walls and actually try and focus on their agenda. Their agenda doesn't look bad. Hell, if we keep them in office long enough we might even get Pelosi and Yang's UBI plans as well. We have plenty pf progressives that want really good things for us and are trying to make it happen. Their plans sound a hell of a lot better than yours do about now.
 

lil devils x

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Devils the natural consequence of your arguments here is literally just Doomerism, thus my absurd rebuttals. If we’ve no option but collapse and death, I would like to ensure the ones who limited us to those options will suffer the same consequences.
You're the doomerist! I see that we do have options that are not collapse and death. Your plan does not actually ensure they suffer anything, they literally have everything and we have nothing no matter which chain of events you follow. Making Puerto Rico and DC states gives us another path forward. We will of course have to deal with restructuring the courts after Trump and McConnell's crap pile of anti human rights judges, but with some leeway with 2 additional states, we may be able to actually do that as well at some point. Now we have to get rid of their judges or we can't even keep universal healthcare legal. There will be no Medicare for all unless we repair the courts because dumbasses thought this was somehow a better plan than moving forward. IF Trump's judges stay in place, all progressive's agenda will be ruled unconstitutional. Allowing Trump to get elected again means making it near impossible to fix next time and we just get to deal with it forever, Brilliant plan guys, absolutely brilliant.

The biggest flaw in your plan is it isn't going to happen and it will not work, like at all.
Like These guys trying to run together in giant undies are more successful your plan:
 

Seanchaidh

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Why would you think they were NOT the one's with the nuclear weapons? Look who literally has the nuke codes in the US right now. The wealthy control everything. The man with the Nuke codes as e speak was CHEERING for the banking crisis and told everyone how great it was an opportunity to buy up the homes of those who were foreclosed on. Trump literally WANTS to make this happen again.
I don't think you're engaging with my argument; I'm not saying that the government isn't controlled by various wealthy interests. I'm saying that the control is not a matter of those wealthy interests threatening to deploy their economic power against the people in order that the government is forced to obediently save them instead of dealing with the chaos unleashed by their collapse so much as it is the government serving the agenda of those wealthy interests more or less voluntarily and cooperating in the fiction of "too big to fail"; none of those companies were too big to fail, they were too big to fail if you want to leave the liberal understanding of property rights and the private capitalist organization of the economy undisturbed. The government cooperates with and facilitates the underlying liberal property rights paradigm without which those wealthy interests would not have really any power whatsoever. They are very much partners in crime. CitiBank was choosing Obama's cabinet; this was not an administration that was forced by circumstance to be friendly to banks. It was funded by Wall Street to get into office and was nice to them by choice.

The problem is when they have everything and the people have nothing, when the people lose, they just die because they no longer even have enough to stay alive at all anymore.
A government can simply reverse this position, distribute resources, and so on. It didn't and doesn't because it is not (and was not) controlled by people who want to do so. The Obama administration like the Trump administration was staffed by people who want to advance their political careers and enrich themselves. Just like most of the gobshites in Congress.
 

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The Middle Ages were not ruled by the Roman Senatorial elite who built the fortresses Europe was ruled from, but the inheritors of the hungry masses they left starving at the gates.
The European Middle Ages were primarily ruled by royal dynasties tracing their roots to European noble houses, in turn tracing their roots (mostly) to tribal or local leaders. Very little ruling power was inherited from the dispossessed peasantry of Rome. I think you may have romanticised this somewhat (pun unintended).
 
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Agema

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The Middle Ages were not ruled by the Roman Senatorial elite who built the fortresses Europe was ruled from, but the inheritors of the hungry masses they left starving at the gates. Our case will share at least that similarity.
The Middle Ages were ruled by the descendants of the barbarian elites who replaced the Roman elites. The hungry masses at the gates of Rome stayed hungry and outside the gates, except with lower literacy levels and without aqueducts and sewers.

Well, technically, Rome emptied out heavily after Constantinple was founded and the Western capital moved to Milan/Ravenna because the power and money had departed, so there was little point hanging around Rome anymore.
 
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Revnak

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The European Middle Ages were primarily ruled by royal dynasties tracing their roots to European noble houses, in turn tracing their roots (mostly) to tribal or local leaders. Very little ruling power was inherited from the dispossessed peasantry of Rome. I think you may have romanticised this somewhat (pun unintended).
Talking about before and after a fall/collapse, not the overall period.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Devils the natural consequence of your arguments here is literally just Doomerism, thus my absurd rebuttals. If we’ve no option but collapse and death, I would like to ensure the ones who limited us to those options will suffer the same consequences.
HA, oh man Revnak. Ok, what you have to realize is that you can never hold the wealthy accountable without the system. Its fun to think that everyone will bust down their doors and redistribute whatever of value they have assuming the system collapses and everyone stopped using USD, maybe everyone uses tampons now. But, its not going to happen, the wealthy will always have much better access to any type of defenses than the attackers will to have to means of getting to them. With the system you can at least curb their worst nature, but without, then it becomes a game of who has the loudest voice that people will follow. The wealthy have that voice.

This attitude of burn it all down and it will be better comes from the same place that thought not only would Bernie win the nomination, but that he would win in a land slide. It's just fantasy and assuming everyone agrees with your ideals. Any sort of systematic collapse would mean we would be stuck with warring tribes with different ideologies. Right now the only reason trump will be out of power is because of the system, which he kinda wants to burn down because hes sure it will eventually hold him accountable.
 

Revnak

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HA, oh man Revnak. Ok, what you have to realize is that you can never hold the wealthy accountable without the system. Its fun to think that everyone will bust down their doors and redistribute whatever of value they have assuming the system collapses and everyone stopped using USD, maybe everyone uses tampons now. But, its not going to happen, the wealthy will always have much better access to any type of defenses than the attackers will to have to means of getting to them. With the system you can at least curb their worst nature, but without, then it becomes a game of who has the loudest voice that people will follow. The wealthy have that voice.

This attitude of burn it all down and it will be better comes from the same place that thought not only would Bernie win the nomination, but that he would win in a land slide. It's just fantasy and assuming everyone agrees with your ideals. Any sort of systematic collapse would mean we would be stuck with warring tribes with different ideologies. Right now the only reason trump will be out of power is because of the system, which he kinda wants to burn down because hes sure it will eventually hold him accountable.
No.
 

Revnak

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You're the doomerist! I see that we do have options that are not collapse and death. Your plan does not actually ensure they suffer anything, they literally have everything and we have nothing no matter which chain of events you follow. Making Puerto Rico and DC states gives us another path forward. We will of course have to deal with restructuring the courts after Trump and McConnell's crap pile of anti human rights judges, but with some leeway with 2 additional states, we may be able to actually do that as well at some point. Now we have to get rid of their judges or we can't even keep universal healthcare legal. There will be no Medicare for all unless we repair the courts because dumbasses thought this was somehow a better plan than moving forward. IF Trump's judges stay in place, all progressive's agenda will be ruled unconstitutional. Allowing Trump to get elected again means making it near impossible to fix next time and we just get to deal with it forever, Brilliant plan guys, absolutely brilliant.

The biggest flaw in your plan is it isn't going to happen and it will not work, like at all.
Like These guys trying to run together in giant undies are more successful your plan:
So, how do we reform financial institutions?
 

Eacaraxe

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Our current system has no plan for resolving its own impending collapse. That I am presenting little better should hardly be called a condemnation of my own argument, but an obvious response to our circumstances.
We become Haiti while the major corporations get their seventeenth round of bailouts, that's the plan.

But "burning"? Nah bro, that's too extreme language. Maybe if we ask the banks real nice, they'll give us some token, symbolic, act like a conversation about whether affordable access to a committee to consider if the next round of bailouts is a corporate right, is a human right.
 
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Silvanus

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This attitude of burn it all down and it will be better comes from the same place that thought not only would Bernie win the nomination, but that he would win in a land slide.
It really doesn't. Sanders is a relatively moderate democratic socialist, who has spent his adult life working within the political system in an effort to reshape it into something more representative and egalitarian.

If somebody is supporting Sanders, then they haven't entirely given up on change through the democratic process.
 
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