Finn Jones cast as Iron Fist, people inexplicably take offence to his race

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Him becoming as good as he was was the clumsy part, yes. Even though I liked the idea I won't say that it was executed perfectly or subtly. The subverting came from how Sitra played him into donning the savior mantle. Sitra needed a pawn and used the "White Savior" trope to her advantage to get him to do what she wanted.

My inbox doesn't register that I'm getting responses for some reason.

I'm not sure how well that holds up, especially considering the alternate ending where instead of expressing anger or defeat, she says that she loves him. She says it after she's stabbed and is dying; there's nothing to be gained in lying. It struck me as her being sincere and wanting Jason's son because he was such a mighty warrior. Now that I've typed that out, I just realized that the two endings reinforce the trope.

I'm aware it was supposed to be a deconstruction of the trope to make fun of it, but it does so with the competency of the Scary Movie franchise. Instead of causing laughter or self-reflection, it's just another example of it happening. Though it is considerably better as an entire product than the horrendous Scary Movie series and all associated materials.

 

[WolfThomas]

I say they keep Rand a rich white guy. Sure, they can make him Chinese, but that certainly wont make him any better. If anything they'll just be playing into a stereotype. I mean, the only reason people want him to be Asian is because of his martial arts. That's pretty damn racist if you ask me. No one cared that Daredevil or Jessica Drew were white, but as soon as the martial artist is white, BAM! Problems. I'd much rather get non-stereotyped Asian characters.

I'm personally happy enough with their pick.

From what I understand the idea is Danny Rand could still be a rich guy from the US if he was Asian American or part Asian American. You know 2nd or 3rd generation Chinese, perhaps with a white mother or something. There is still the divide between him and Luke Cage having grown up with a silver spoon, gone to Ivy League schools, etc where as Luke has had a hard life, wrongful imprisonment etc.

With the martial arts, it's not "Hey he's good at martial arts because he has Asian blood", but rather he is reconnecting with his lost heritage. As a English speaking, US citizen raised in US culture and possibly mixed race he is still going to struggle as an outsider in Kun'Lon. He goes back to the country of his forefathers embraces their culture and masters Kung Fu.

 

[JimB]

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

He will never be typecasted like a person of color would when choosing roles. Not only that, because of Hollywood's rampant whitewashing there isn't a role that literal snowflake couldn't play. He could literally play an Egyptian god before an actual Egyptian would be cast and people would defend him. And he can act till he dies because unlike women, male actors don't have age-based cut-offs.

He benefits from a system that's rigged in his favor to an oppressive degree.

And he's a horrible casting choice for Strange.

Nothing you say passes a simple test. If you replaced Cumberbatch with a black man, and you tried to say the same things about him, you'd be material for the Klan.

No, he'd be material for the asylum, because anyone saying a black actor isn't barred from any role, would be widely defended for being cast in any role specifically due to his race, and would benefit from a tradition of favoring black actors over actors of any race is someone who is either delusional or who has seen fewer than three movies in his life.

 

[Bat Vader]

I'm against this choice not because he is white but because I feel he isn't that good of an actor. He's decent at playing Loras Tyrell but he isn't great. His acting seems really wooden and forced at times. They could have gone with a much better actor I think.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Man, where were the diversity police when we wanted the more traditional Mandarin?

My take comes with an understanding of Iron first's place in the comics: almost never high profile, and with the exception of some minor runs, was never more high profile than his work with Luke Cage in Heroes for Hire, which was designed to be a level of commentary on race relations staring the poor black former criminal and the silver spooned white boy working together despite tensions and differences in worldviews. Given Marvel thinking long term, it's safe to say that relationship is being built, which will ultimately produce a show where the social commentary on things like white privilege SJWs think is lacking will write itself. That isn't going to happen if you get myopic about his origin, unless you're ready to crack the offense hashtags out for American Asian privilege.

Next time work faster. The Ultimate version of Wasp was Asian. we could have had her.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I realize that it's in fashion to try to make a fairly leveled criticism of something sound ridiculous by saying they're "demanding" Marvel cater to their whims, or that they're setting the "SJW lynch mob" on someone, but it might be a good idea to actually read the article before jumping the gun on that.

The author literally says in the first line that they're "Proposing" something. Not that they're demanding. Not that Marvel executives are all racist and we should threaten them with death until they bend to our whims. They outline why they think that the white savior trope is bad, how they could avoid it while keeping the character intact, and... yeah. That's pretty much it. And if I go and navigate to the petition...

Join us today and ask Marvel Studios to cast an Asian American as Iron Fist.

Well they spelled demand wrong, but I suppose that's just an honest mistake.

I'm not sure I agree with the stance, the character is originally white, and I don't tend to share a lot of the popular opinions on cultural appropriation. If anything I think it's a little bit worse for them to cast the character as Asian just because they're associate with asian martial arts. That being said, it's an opinion piece, not a call to arms

 

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

I'm against this choice not because he is white but because I feel he isn't that good of an actor. He's decent at playing Loras Tyrell but he isn't great. His acting seems really wooden and forced at times. They could have gone with a much better actor I think.

Have you seen him in Sherlock? Heard him on Cabin Pressure?

Or did you just watch Star Trek and GoT and assume that those weren't woodenly written?

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Oh, Marvel ain't winning this one! Seriously. Infront of them they have two options. A.) Racist Stereotype or B.) White Savior. They lose either way! This is fun!

I say they keep Rand a rich white guy. Sure, they can make him Chinese, but that certainly wont make him any better. If anything they'll just be playing into a stereotype. I mean, the only reason people want him to be Asian is because of his martial arts. That's pretty damn racist if you ask me. No one cared that Daredevil or Jessica Drew were white, but as soon as the martial artist is white, BAM! Problems. I'd much rather get non-stereotyped Asian characters.

Furthermore, Luke and Danny's relationship. I, personally, think it works better if Danny is white. Sure, they can still be best friends if the MCU Danny is Chinese or whatever, but I really do think it'd be best if he were white. Especially considering the race issues going on in the US of A. I just really want a white guy and a black guy to be, like, best friends. That's just a personal thing I want. I really liked seeing them together the few times I have. Especially in the Deadpool comics. Fun stuff!

Snip

Great, an Iron Fist fan! I haven't read much of the character and I want to confirm something. Iron Fist's fighting style is alien, right?

Oh lord this confused me when I saw the quote message, I forgot we had the same name.

Short answer, Yes.

Long answer: K'un Lun, the Eternal City, was a crashed spaceship piloted by humanoid aliens who landed in a different dimension that syncs up with Earth's once a decade. This sync point is geographically in the K'un Lun mountain range so for all intents and purposes it's a magic city in the mountains which only appears once every ten years. Because of this, folks who wander in end up getting adopted. It was also populated by sentient planet people who are still pissed at the humans/alien and the city that they built on their turf.

Having said THAT, more recent stories have implied there are around 8 Heavenly cities that are all at different points and appear on Earth once a decade as well, each with it's own 'Iron Fist' equivalent (Fat Cobra, Bride of Nine Spiders, Tiger's Beautiful Daughter, etc) so the Alien angle is still a little dicey since most recent writers haven't touched on it much.

Either way, Iron Fist's Kung Fu is definitely erring on the supernatural/not-of-this-world side more than, say, Shang Chi or Daredevil does.

 

[Bat Vader]

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

I'm against this choice not because he is white but because I feel he isn't that good of an actor. He's decent at playing Loras Tyrell but he isn't great. His acting seems really wooden and forced at times. They could have gone with a much better actor I think.

Have you seen him in Sherlock? Heard him on Cabin Pressure?

Or did you just watch Star Trek and GoT and assume that those weren't woodenly written?

Having seen both Star Trek and Sherlock I went to IMDB to look him up to see what episodes he was in and he isn't even listed as acted in those. Are you sure you aren't confusing him with Benedict Cumberbatch who is in both Sherlock and Star Trek.

Never even heard of Cabin Pressure.

 

[Simonism451]

"people"

Okay, while I was away did the meaning of the word "people" change? Because as it stands it appears to be one person. Person, as in one. Before we make threads about people making arses out of themselves on Twitter could we first make sure that at least its actually "people" and not "person" first?

I too would love to see this thread renamed 'Finn Jones cast as Iron Fist, person inexplicably takes offence to his race'.

But I understand that's not for everyone. You'd have to be, I don't know, honest or something.

"people"

Okay, while I was away did the meaning of the word "people" change? Because as it stands it appears to be one person. Person, as in one. Before we make threads about people making arses out of themselves on Twitter could we first make sure that at least its actually "people" and not "person" first?

And maybe before going on a short rant about singular and plural you can actually look at the comment to see if there's any agreement, and thus support from other people.

The comment has now been made private and unfortunately I didn't archive it, but it had a triple digit level of retweets and likes, which implies a triple digit number of people agreeing with it, thus making it "people" not "person". Even if we assume all the retweets are stating how crazy the person is, the likes are a much harder thing to explain.

It's on the first fucking page. And it's not like you couldn't google "Iron Fist casting" and get hit with numbers of articles written by people discussing the casting choice and having different opinions about it, including disapproval or offense. It's also not like Zontar didn't provide a link to an article in the OP which, in turn, links to a petition to change the casting that's been signed currently by roughly 4,000 people.
I mean, Zontar's clearly got a chip on his shoulder about the perceived threat of social justice movements on which you've rightfully called him out and I think his complaint about "tokenism" fails to at least consider the bigger picture of minority representation in pop-culture but please actually try to read the thread before complaining.

 

[usurpersmurf]

A better discussion can be found here:
http://comicsalliance.com/iron-fist-asian-american-or-white-savior/

Iron Fist plays to unfortunately outdated White Savior tropes. But is a great character. There are practically no Asian characters in the marvel universe (Hogun, A Howling Commanda, Wong in Dr Strange), people think that making Iron Fist an Asian-American (important not just Asian) would dispell those problematic features and give us a prominent Asian Superhero.

You're forgetting Shang Chi.

I'm sorry I'm not forgetting Shang Chi. I meant Marvel Cinematic Universe. Of which he hasn't appeared in.

And Shang Chi was born and raised in China and is ethnically Chinese. Different to what they were often suggesting which is an Asian-American. Something 2nd or 3rd generation immersed in American Culture.

Don't forget "The Ancient One".
Oh wait nevermind. He's being played by a white woman.
No outrage there.

 

[WolfThomas]

I thought of a good parallel to this, it's as if a studio will make an Eminem film/series and be criticized by people saying that a rapping, lower-middle class man is more fit to a black person.

I disagree it is not a good parallel. Danny Rand is not a real person. Eminem is. Making an autobiographical series about a real person and changing their race would be wrong, whichever way you do it.

 

[Josh123914]

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

He will never be typecasted like a person of color would when choosing roles. Not only that, because of Hollywood's rampant whitewashing there isn't a role that literal snowflake couldn't play. He could literally play an Egyptian god before an actual Egyptian would be cast and people would defend him. And he can act till he dies because unlike women, male actors don't have age-based cut-offs.

He benefits from a system that's rigged in his favor to an oppressive degree.

And he's a horrible casting choice for Strange.

Would living in a majority white capitalist society have something to do with it?

No seriously, there are so many roles in the media for white people because Western societies are primarily made up of white people who would prefer to see stories based off of other white people. It's a market to cater to, and Benedict is lucky to be part of that.
There should be more stories where more minorities get to lead (do we have a female black superhero yet? Other than Storm?) but the thing holding such ventures back are outdated financial forecasts, like the presumption of executives that no one would watch WonderWoman because they thought audiences wouldn't take a female lead seriously (which might have been true... 40 years ago) so you get situations where female and black superheroes are relegated to just being the main character's best friend as is the case in like 3 Marvel movies.

In the end, this is a consequence of the free market, and the solution is to promote with your money the films with minorities if that's what you want to see more of-- there needs to be proof that there's a market for this sort of content and you can see it right now with Deadpool, wherein executives are making noises towards producing more R-Rated films with moderate budgets.

If you want to see a market where Black or Asian people dominate, look to the film industries in Nigeria or Korea, where they produce loads of films with native actors that the audience can identify with. Further evidence would be Bollywood, where the richer ethnicities like Punjabis are overrepresented in films since they are the ones that can afford to go see them, and in response more films are made to cater to them.

EDIT: Sorry everyone, I don't really have much to say regarding Iron Fist specifically other than while it would have been nice for them to choose an Asian actor just to get one male Asian superhero already, I can't exactly deny this new actor, though the casting choice implies the Tyrells in Game of Thrones are about the get seriously fucked over, which is a big concern for me.

 

[Bat Vader]

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

What can i say, i just hate Zorps. Zorps being the alien species that benedict cumberpatch is a member of and is currently trying to invade humanity by doing a horrible human impression. Damn zorps.

You're trying for funny, but you still just come across as extremely racist. I say this as someone who doesn't think that BLM is a racist group or any of that right wing crap. I'm saying this because when you start talking about your problem with someone, and it begins and ends with their race, you're a racist.

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

I'm against this choice not because he is white but because I feel he isn't that good of an actor. He's decent at playing Loras Tyrell but he isn't great. His acting seems really wooden and forced at times. They could have gone with a much better actor I think.

Have you seen him in Sherlock? Heard him on Cabin Pressure?

Or did you just watch Star Trek and GoT and assume that those weren't woodenly written?

Having seen both Star Trek and Sherlock I went to IMDB to look him up to see what episodes he was in and he isn't even listed as acted in those. Are you sure you aren't confusing him with Benedict Cumberbatch who is in both Sherlock and Star Trek.

Never even heard of Cabin Pressure.

Yes, I was talking about Cumberbatch, see what I high lighted above.

I wasn't though. I was talking about Finn Jones.

 

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

What can i say, i just hate Zorps. Zorps being the alien species that benedict cumberpatch is a member of and is currently trying to invade humanity by doing a horrible human impression. Damn zorps.

You're trying for funny, but you still just come across as extremely racist. I say this as someone who doesn't think that BLM is a racist group or any of that right wing crap. I'm saying this because when you start talking about your problem with someone, and it begins and ends with their race, you're a racist.

I think you just crossed the line from making a comment, to actually judging a talented actor because he's too white for your tastes. Racism is ugly however you choose to dress it up.

Racism might be "ugly" both ways, but Benedict Cumberpatch will never ever be negatively affected by it, no matter how many times I describe him as an unpainted wax sculpture in a warm room.

Doubling down on your racism hardly seems appropriate.

I'm against this choice not because he is white but because I feel he isn't that good of an actor. He's decent at playing Loras Tyrell but he isn't great. His acting seems really wooden and forced at times. They could have gone with a much better actor I think.

Have you seen him in Sherlock? Heard him on Cabin Pressure?

Or did you just watch Star Trek and GoT and assume that those weren't woodenly written?

Having seen both Star Trek and Sherlock I went to IMDB to look him up to see what episodes he was in and he isn't even listed as acted in those. Are you sure you aren't confusing him with Benedict Cumberbatch who is in both Sherlock and Star Trek.

Never even heard of Cabin Pressure.

Yes, I was talking about Cumberbatch, see what I high lighted above.

I wasn't though. I was talking about Finn Jones.

Ok that explains a lot about your stance on his acting ability. Sorry.

 

[Lightspeaker]

I'm not touching the overall topic of this thread with a barge pole. If only because there's several people in here who genuinely worry me with their attitude to other people and I absolutely do not intend to draw their abuse.


However I really must address this:

Well, American is a nationality, not an ethnicity or race. Same applies to British I suppose. People might get miffed if Idris described himself as English.

No they wouldn't. At all. Unless they're racist.

British refers to a person who was born on (or has changed their nationality to become a citizen of) the island of Great Britain.

English refers to a person who was born in England. Which is a constituent country of the island of Great Britain.

I'm English and British. Idris Elba is also English and British. He was born and raised in Newham in London. By definition he is English. His parents were a Sierra Leonean and a Ghanaian; but that doesn't matter. He was born, raised and started working in London, England, Great Britain. There is literally no other way to categorise his nationality.

 

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

I'm not touching the overall topic of this thread with a barge pole. If only because there's several people in here who genuinely worry me with their attitude to other people and I absolutely do not intend to draw their abuse.


However I really must address this:

Well, American is a nationality, not an ethnicity or race. Same applies to British I suppose. People might get miffed if Idris described himself as English.

No they wouldn't. At all. Unless they're racist.

British refers to a person who was born on (or has changed their nationality to become a citizen of) the island of Great Britain.

English refers to a person who was born in England. Which is a constituent country of the island of Great Britain.

I'm English and British. Idris Elba is also English and British. He was born and raised in Newham in London. By definition he is English. His parents were a Sierra Leonean and a Ghanaian; but that doesn't matter. He was born, raised and started working in London, England, Great Britain. There is literally no other way to categorise his nationality.

Olympian? I feel like we should just drop the thread and start talking about how awesome Idris Elba is.