Finn Jones cast as Iron Fist, people inexplicably take offence to his race

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

...

Think of it as people being upset about a missed opportunity to correct and old whitewashing. Given the mythologies they are drawing from, there is no reason the original shouldn't have been of Asian heritage. It's just that, in that era, little white boys were buying comics, so all the heroes were white dudes... and what few characters of color they had were poorly-disguised stereotypes pretty often. (And the female heroes were pretty much always "male gaze" constructs).

When drawing from these far-less-mainstream characters, Marvel risks little by changing things up. I'd have LOVED a Middle Eastern Dr. Strange, and an Asian Iron Fist seems to just make sense.

That's just what race relations need, the correction of fictional wrongs that don't exist, and never happened, instead of dealing with real wrongs that do exist and do happen.

smh

 

[SirSullymore]

...

Think of it as people being upset about a missed opportunity to correct and old whitewashing. Given the mythologies they are drawing from, there is no reason the original shouldn't have been of Asian heritage. It's just that, in that era, little white boys were buying comics, so all the heroes were white dudes... and what few characters of color they had were poorly-disguised stereotypes pretty often. (And the female heroes were pretty much always "male gaze" constructs).

When drawing from these far-less-mainstream characters, Marvel risks little by changing things up. I'd have LOVED a Middle Eastern Dr. Strange, and an Asian Iron Fist seems to just make sense.

So, to make up for the history of stereotypical racial portrayals, you propose an Asian Kung-fu master? Okay...

All Females were there for titillation? The CCA strictly banned anything too violent or or sexy for about 40 years and comics were really tame.

 

[Czann]

Just a bunch of idiots overreacting to some pop thing as usual.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

...

Think of it as people being upset about a missed opportunity to correct and old whitewashing. Given the mythologies they are drawing from, there is no reason the original shouldn't have been of Asian heritage. It's just that, in that era, little white boys were buying comics, so all the heroes were white dudes... and what few characters of color they had were poorly-disguised stereotypes pretty often. (And the female heroes were pretty much always "male gaze" constructs).

When drawing from these far-less-mainstream characters, Marvel risks little by changing things up. I'd have LOVED a Middle Eastern Dr. Strange, and an Asian Iron Fist seems to just make sense.

I have an enormous rant a few pages ago explaining how what you just said only proves you've never read an Iron Fist comic. Or possibly ANY comic.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Any excuse to get offended. Honestly, I think it's just attention seeking behavior.
Then again maybe they saw iron fist and just ASSUMED he was asian? (Admittedly I had to fucking google it myself but hey, I'm not the one rallying for a petition.) I guess an Asian could play him and it wouldn't be as blatantly weird and forced as like, Human Torch being black which felt especially like tryhard token casting when they kept Invisible Woman who's supposed to be his sister as a blonde haired white girl (for the record I didn't give a shit enough to complain about that either.)

Seriously though, people like this cry wolf so often that "racist" and "sexist" are just white noise (no pun intended) now. I literally can not think of one singular popular TV show, videogame, or movie made in the last 5 years that hasn't been called racist and/or sexist before its release.

 

[COMaestro]

Okay, I don't have the time to read this entire thread, though I've gotten through the first two pages and no one yet has put out an actual background on the character of Danny Rand/Iron Fist, yet still chime in with their thoughts and opinions of the character and how the series will likely go. From a mix of what I remember and a quick look at wiki:

Danny was a child hiking somewhere in the Himalayas with his mother and father and his father's business partner, looking for the fabled city of K'un L'un which only appears every 10 years. At some point Danny falls, and his rope pulls both his parents down. The business partner cuts the father loose, letting him fall to his death, but offers to help the mother and Danny. They refuse and the partner leaves them to their fate. They manage to pull themselves up and in the process of trying to leave come across a bridge that wasn't there before. At the same time, a pack of wolves appears. The mom sacrifices herself to allow Danny to reach the bridge, where archers have appeared and shoot at the wolves.

The bridge leads to K'un L'un, which had just reappeared. Danny is taken to the leader of the city who apprentices him to to one of their best martial artists. Ten years later, having earned the power of the Iron Fist by defeating a dragon, Danny leaves K'un L'un to return to New York and take vengeance on his father's murderer.


So, this is not necessarily going to be a "white savior" story, having him be non-Asian makes sense as he was discriminated against as an outsider by some of K'un L'un's residents, and making him white as he is in the comics could really help with the interactions with Luke Cage that will likely occur as he will have experienced similar racial prejudice. After watching season one of Daredevil and half of Jessica Jones so far, I'm willing to trust Marvel on this, as they have been doing a great job with the characters.

 

[WolfThomas]

So, this is not necessarily going to be a "white savior" story, having him be non-Asian makes sense as he was discriminated against as an outsider by some of K'un L'un's residents, and making him white as he is in the comics could really help with the interactions with Luke Cage that will likely occur as he will have experienced similar racial prejudice. After watching season one of Daredevil and half of Jessica Jones so far, I'm willing to trust Marvel on this, as they have been doing a great job with the characters.

Before I start I'm a long time marvel comics reader, who is familiar with Iron Fist. I had no strong opinion either way, but like to play devils advocate. I agree Netflix as been doing a stellar job and will probably knock this out of the park whatever choice.

The issue of being an outsider in K'un L'un is still there if Danny is for an Asian-American of several generation in the USA. He doesn't speak their language and he doesn't know their history. He's been immersed in US culture. Chinese-Americans don't get treated like long lost cousins in China, they get treated as outsiders and tourists.

Furthermore it's perhaps patronizing to think all Asians share the same culture. If Danny was Korean-American or Japansese-American or Philipino-American he would be treated as an outsider in China, not just K'Un L'un.

I think perhaps a third option would be a mixed race actor. Can have the benefits of both being an wealthy privleged outsider/reconnecting with heritage, without either of the negative connotations (White Savior, All Asians know Kung Fu).

Furthermore you can still contrast Luke Cage and Danny Rand if Rand is Asian/Mixed Race. If Rand grew up with a silver spoon, inherited his fortune etc, there is the class divide. As well as the fact Asian-Americans are still treated differently to Black-Americans. Positive stereotypes can still be harmful.

 

[deadish]

*reads*

It would seem they are opposed to what they call "the white saviour story", AKA Mighty Whitey. Y'know, where the white guy hero goes off to some exotic culture, learns their ways and promptly becomes the best ever at those ways. Maybe saves them using his white person power for bonus points.

So think Avatar with Asians instead of blue alien cat people.

I have no idea if "Iron Fist" was or will be that kind of story.

Also, representation, diversity, "wouldn't it be nice" etc etc.

Fortunately I have no stake in the casting of some Marvel Netflix crap. Imma sit this one out.

Have fun folks!

You know. I have kind of accepted that Hollywood is entertainment for white people.

As a Asian person, I know I'm pretty much never going to see a person of my ethic being the big hero in anything but a kungfu movie nor get the girl (especially if the girl white).

 

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

*reads*

It would seem they are opposed to what they call "the white saviour story", AKA Mighty Whitey. Y'know, where the white guy hero goes off to some exotic culture, learns their ways and promptly becomes the best ever at those ways. Maybe saves them using his white person power for bonus points.

So think Avatar with Asians instead of blue alien cat people.

I have no idea if "Iron Fist" was or will be that kind of story.

Also, representation, diversity, "wouldn't it be nice" etc etc.

Fortunately I have no stake in the casting of some Marvel Netflix crap. Imma sit this one out.

Have fun folks!

You know. I have kind of accepted that Hollywood is entertainment for white people.

As a Asian person, I know I'm pretty much never going to see a person of my ethic being the big hero in anything but a kungfu movie nor get the girl (especially if the girl white).

Hollywood: the city in California, the state in the United States of America, which is 77% white. Is it really a shock that the film industry in a majority white country caters to white people? Next you're going to tell me that China and Japan crank out a lot of Asian flicks or something wild. I bet Bollywood loves dance.

 

[deadish]

Hollywood: the city in California, the state in the United States of America, which is 77% white. Is it really a shock that the film industry in a majority white country caters to white people? Next you're going to tell me that China and Japan crank out a lot of Asian flicks or something wild. I bet Bollywood loves dance.

Actually where Hollywood is based isn't all that important. Where their target market is based is what matters.

In the case of Hollywood, it's the entire world. However it appears they value the NA/EU (which are majority white) markets more - probably because that's where the money is.

In summary, $$$ is the sole determiner of their behavior - like any other for-profit entity.

 

[tzimize]

Have we gone full circle now in terms of "outrage"? "White guy is playing a white character"...

...

...

... I'm getting too old to keep up with internet rage and internet controversies anymore.

Hehehe. I like this post. Made me chuckle.

The fundamental point of egalitarian philosophy is that your gender, race, class, sexuality et cetera don't matter. Whenever such things can be ignored they should be ignored.

The author of the article sites his reasoning is to avoid the "White Savoir" trope, but the ideal conclusion to civil rights is not avoiding that trope, it's having the luxury of not taking note of it. I don't want to live in a world where you can't have a savior character who happens to be white without them being a part of the "White Savior" trope.

Remember, the thing that makes racism so unreasonable is that it's all in our heads. Race is not an objective phenomenon that holds sway over us without our collective permission - we permit it's presence; WE give it credibility; WE give it power. The author has made the mistake of treating the trope in question like it's something that is inherent in the work itself, as opposed to something that the audience projects.

Iron Fist, as far as I can tell from my research, is not a story with a racial message. There is nothing within the text itself that suggests the ethnicity of Danial Rand is important. Any perceived racial undertones are the result of the ephemeral zeitgeist of the audience.

Trying to deliberately inject a non-racially minded story with these ideas is a slippery slope. You could make the same argument for Thor, Captain America or Superman if you squint. You could argue that Black Panther is a racist caricature if you wanted to.

If we're now morally obligated to consider every interaction between one race and another in the context of racism if at all possible, then we will be obligated to do so until the end of time. That's the nature of racism; it's all bullshit, all made up. We created it, and we continue to build and create it every with every generation within which we instill it's principals.

If we follow this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, the irony is that there will be nothing more important to us about a character than all the factors we claim shouldn't matter. We'll become so paranoid about whether or not the thing we're inspecting is racist that it will be impossible to write a story that ISN'T racially motivated.

At some point, somewhere down the line, if we want to be free of this oppression we're going to have to stop constantly looking over our shoulder; we're going to have to deaden the nerves that our collective fear and guilt over race have rendered so sensitive; we're going to have to accept that, to an untainted eye, a cigar is just a cigar and skin is just skin. And someday, perhaps the color of your skin will truly not matter.

Iron Fist's race doesn't have to be important, and I don't think we should make it important.

That was beautiful.

 

[Dango]

snip

That was... incredibly well written.

I would argue (probably in contradiction to what I just quoted) that there's a reason such a trope even exists. Which is that the story of an outsider learning the ins and outs of something that he was previously barred from doing is much more compelling than just a guy learning a thing.

The movie Forbidden Kingdom comes to mind, which was about a loser white kid being trained by Jacie Chan to become a martial arts master in a fantasy version of Ancient China. It was partly fun to watch because the nature of kung fu was inherently incredibly foreign to someone who grew up a street urchin.

 

[TheJebus]

snip

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[JimB]

First of all I talked about a range from, "emotional instability" to "mental illness" and for "MOST." I didn't just say, "Klan members are all crazy!"

I know. That doesn't answer the question, though. What mental diseases do you attribute to them?

Second, you just straight up need to rewrite that last sentence, it's a mess.

It has a typo. It's otherwise fine. If you don't want to reply to it, that's fine, though.

 

[JimB]

First of all I talked about a range from, "emotional instability" to "mental illness" and for "MOST." I didn't just say, "Klan members are all crazy!"

I know. That doesn't answer the question, though. What mental diseases do you attribute to them?

You know that I didn't say I attribute "mental diseases" to them in general, but you still want me to... list some? Gotcha moments should emerge organically, you're trying too damned hard.

This is not a gotcha. This is me asking you to back up what you are saying. You feel comfortable making sweeping statements about the Ku Klux Klan that raise questions as to whether or not they can be held accountable for their actions, since mental diseases and defects represent diminished capacity. I would like you to tell me, since you seem to have some information about the group, what diagnoses you think they possess. If you will not do so, then that's fine, but I do wish in that instance you would quit accusing me to trying to "gotcha" you by asking you to unpack your own declarations.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

The fundamental point of egalitarian philosophy is that your gender, race, class, sexuality et cetera don't matter. Whenever such things can be ignored they should be ignored.

The author of the article sites his reasoning is to avoid the "White Savoir" trope, but the ideal conclusion to civil rights is not avoiding that trope, it's having the luxury of not taking note of it. I don't want to live in a world where you can't have a savior character who happens to be white without them being a part of the "White Savior" trope.

Remember, the thing that makes racism so unreasonable is that it's all in our heads. Race is not an objective phenomenon that holds sway over us without our collective permission - we permit it's presence; WE give it credibility; WE give it power. The author has made the mistake of treating the trope in question like it's something that is inherent in the work itself, as opposed to something that the audience projects.

Iron Fist, as far as I can tell from my research, is not a story with a racial message. There is nothing within the text itself that suggests the ethnicity of Danial Rand is important. Any perceived racial undertones are the result of the ephemeral zeitgeist of the audience.

Trying to deliberately inject a non-racially minded story with these ideas is a slippery slope. You could make the same argument for Thor, Captain America or Superman if you squint. You could argue that Black Panther is a racist caricature if you wanted to.

If we're now morally obligated to consider every interaction between one race and another in the context of racism if at all possible, then we will be obligated to do so until the end of time. That's the nature of racism; it's all bullshit, all made up. We created it, and we continue to build and create it every with every generation within which we instill it's principals.

If we follow this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, the irony is that there will be nothing more important to us about a character than all the factors we claim shouldn't matter. We'll become so paranoid about whether or not the thing we're inspecting is racist that it will be impossible to write a story that ISN'T racially motivated.

At some point, somewhere down the line, if we want to be free of this oppression we're going to have to stop constantly looking over our shoulder; we're going to have to deaden the nerves that our collective fear and guilt over race have rendered so sensitive; we're going to have to accept that, to an untainted eye, a cigar is just a cigar and skin is just skin. And someday, perhaps the color of your skin will truly not matter.

Iron Fist's race doesn't have to be important, and I don't think we should make it important.

Now, to start, I agree with you in most ways. You can go find my detailed opinion about all of this earlier in the thread if you care.

I just think it is important to point out something. Until race doesn't matter race matters. If we take the high minded approach of trying to ignore race, or any other such trait like sexuality or gender, then cultural inertia tends to lead us into prejudice practices and even contributing to an increase in racist views among the population. Let's use the relevant example of adapting old comic book heroes to movies/tv shows. Most old comic book hero's are white with no pressing reason to be so. Now, like you say, ideally we say "Who cares!" and cast whoever is best for the job. Thing is, unless everyone is on board is going to do so this will reinforce the status quo to the detriment of everyone for a whole multitude of reasons.

To name just one, because white people are more routinely hired for roles like this the body of experienced white people is large while the body of experienced minorities is small. This means that the amount of white people that can successfully apply for the job is disproportionately large, which means minorities will end up under represented, which reinforces the view that many have that white people just make better movie stars and minorities don't sell tickets. The stereotype is reinforced to the detriment of all of us.

There is a lot of merit to the approach you suggest, but I think it only works once the system is fixed or near fixed. We are not there yet in my opinion.

 

[KissingSunlight]

snip

In other news, people are now upset that a black person was cast to play a black person. http://news.yahoo.com/first-poster-for-zoe-saldanas-nina-simone-165355288.html Yep! People are now complaining about a movie that cast Zoe Saldana as jazz singer Nina Simone.

I am done taking "whitewashing" and "culture appropriation" seriously. I hope with these latest "controversies" other people are going to call "Shenanigans!" anytime someone tries to bring up these bigoted accusations.