Fire Emblem 3 Houses - I think I miss the point

CritialGaming

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So I know people love the Fire Emblem series, a strategy RPG series with Final Fantasy-esque approaches to new games. Instead of numbered entries, they just slap a new subtitle on it but ultimately each entry is it's own game. Which means a newcomer to the series like myself can freely pick up the latest game on the Switch and not be lost in the exposition.

Gameplay wise the only thing I know about the series is that it is brutally hard and your characters die permanently so save scum like every other tactic series out there (looking at you x-com). 3-Houses does well to enforce this idea to you because the game gives you an INSANE number of chances to save. You save before selecting a battle, and then you save right after the battle loads in case you weren't sure if you saved before. You can also save after the battle, after a meal, after a conversation, and after taking a shit. While this approach is a nice convenience to the player, it makes you wonder why they bother making permadeth a thing when any mistake that leads to the death of a character you like is quickly reversable. But I suppose the hardcore players with play honestly and it's merely there for the people that can't handle it, though there is also a difficulty mode that just turns the permadeath of characters off, so why not just chose that if you don't want to deal with it in the game.

Anyway I'm about 5 hours into the latest Fire Emblem game now, and I don't get it. Like Breath of the Wild, I can see HOW this might be considered a good game. It's polished, well put together, the gameplay is as deep as you want it to be, but personally....I just think it's stupid.

First off the story begins in which your character is chilling with a mercenary group when Three noble kids (from different houses) flee out of the woods being chased by Bandits. You and your mercenary leader take this chance to help the kids by leading them in a tutorial battle. After the battle it turns out these kids are from some kind of military academy and your mercenary leader was once a Knight that help protect the school and the students. Turns out he was also like the greatest Knight who ever lived and also by the way you are his kid, therefore you are immediately recognized as also being the greatest thing ever because if your dad is great then you also must be great because that's how genetics works.

You and your dad are brought back to the academy where you dad doesn't wanna go back to being a Knight, except he does for no explained reason. You are then given the job of PROFESSOR and are immediately put in charge of one of the three houses. Again, because your dad is awesome, you are awesome by association and must be capable of turning whatever house you choose into the greatest house ever. The whole set up is rushed and makes no sense.

Nevermind the fact that these three ruling nations just happen to send there kids off to the same military school so they can all learn how to fight themselves? I am not sure how the politics work with that. Maybe there is an outside nation as well but that's not introduced in the story up to my point yet.

Anyway you become the professor and are given a monthly allowance of money and a schedule. You are given 1 mission that essentially is a battle at the end of each month which you are supposed to spend preparing your students for. You do this by lecturing, doing activities to boost moral, side mission battles for exp, and running fetch quests for people to level up as a professor. Everything you choose to do will benefit your team in some way so there doesn't appear to be wrong choices, only better choices.

Sounds fine right? You have a month of days to prepare for the big end battle, and you just need to train up your folks as much as possible. Well the game features a calendar system kind of like a Perona game. You see a map and your 8-bit avatar marks what day it is. However you only get to do things on Sunday's, with minor events that happen randomly during the week. So you mostly watch the marker skip 90% of the month giving you a small number of options to choice from on Sundays, and before you know it, it's battle time.

I hate this. Why even have the month laid out if the game doesn't let you chose what to do during those days. You can completely remove the calendar and just jump cut the to gameplay available sections without it. It makes me feel panic as I watch the battle rapidly approach, knowing that I'm not prepared for it but unable to do anything about it.

Yet this stuff is all just the fluff around what the meat of the game is suppose to be and that is the tactic battles. If you've played a Strategy RPG before (either a previous FE game or Final Fantasy Tactics, or Age of Argest, or anything of the sort) then you know what this is gonna be like here. You move your characters across the battlefield in turned based battles, trying to out position your enemy and knock them down without anyone on your team dying themselves.

The problem is that the combat is sooooooo RNG focused, that you are going to loose characters and there is fuck all you can do about it.

At the start you have your character and the head of the house (whichever one you picked) being "hero" characters, which means they basically start a few levels above everyone else. Characters earn exp in battle by doing things, either healing your friends or attacking an enemy. You gain exp per attack, so a character doesn't have to get the finishing blow on an enemy to level up. So you want to keep your stronger characters up front (to eat the hits) while protecting the weak characters in the back. The problem with that idea is that if you don't make those weaklings fight then they will never not be weak.

Normally when you attack, the enemy gets a counter attack. With a couple of exceptions you can use to mitigate this, like melee people cant counter a ranged attack from bows or magic. The sames goes for you, when your character is attacked, there is a chance for a counter attack. This RNG system in a game with permadeath fucking sucks. The RNG can simply fuck you, a counter attack can be a crit you can't possibly see coming and your character can be 1-shot. I've save scummed so many times because I foolishly try to level up my shitty level 1 or 2 characters only to have their attack not only miss, but to be 1-shot on the clapback.

Oh and let's talk about skills for a minute. Like Breath of Wild, your character's weapons can break and if they break in battle, that character is useless for the rest of the fight. Also Skills eat up more durablity than normal attacks, but they also don't do any more damage than a normal attack and therefore are fucking useless. (at least early-game, things might change later admittedly). The only difference I see from skills is that have different hit ranges, so while your normal attack can't hit a certain enemy you might be able to use a skill to hit it. But that doesn't seem very common.

How is this strategy? Or even good game design? What about this is fun for people?

A buddy of mine really likes the challenge from these games, but randomly getting gibbed doesn't equal challenge, it equals bullshit.

So I hate Fire Emblem. I don't know how this game is getting near perfect reviews from just about everyone. But the fact that nobody mentions how RNG can just shit in your mouth is mind blowing to me. Again, I can see how this is a good game for some people. But with terrible combat, a stupid nonsense story, annoying mechanics, I just don't get it.
 

meiam

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So first things to say, fire emblem changed immensely in the last few entries it had. It used to be very niche, it had a good following but didn't sell that well, awakening was probably going to be the last one, so they decided to be more creative and abandoned a lot of what was the stable of the series. This ended working well for them and making awakening a smash hit. Since then they've been doing more and more experiment with the game, a lot of which imo doesn't work because they keep old formula stuff with new one without any consideration of whether the systems work together.

Fire emblem used to have no difficulty setting (at most it would have an extremely hard setting that only unlocked after you finished the game) and permadeath was always on. Newer game have shifted toward multiple difficulty and permadeath being optional. This meant it went from being an extremely tightly crafted experience because the dev could focus on balancing one difficulty system to one where they have to juggle a bunch of them (2 difficulties + optional permadeath means 4 different experience). On top of that it used to be that you couldn't take part in optional/repeatable fight for extra exp, but that also seems to be going away. As such you really shouldn't play with permadeath on anymore, the game is simply not designed for that and it's just a vestigial feature.

Also, if the game has children character like new entry have, you're eventually going to replace your entire team by much better character, so it really doesn't matter if you level up low level character. It used to be that you'd almost always start the game with an extremely strong character (much higher level) and most of the early game strategy came from maximizing his/her use while minimizing there kill.

Story have also gone from poorly written but simplistic in nature to overcomplicated animesque mess that somehow managed to have even worst writing.

I can give you some basic pointer, but I haven't played many of the newer entry (awakening became a snooze fest once I unlocked the children character so that kill my enthusiasm for the franchise, tried fire emblem fate: conquest since it was supposed to be closer to old formula, but that game was just bad with the worst story ever) so I can't tell you how well that'll work. Positioning is the name of the game, you should have a way to see the enemy range, always make sure whoever will be getting attacked will survive no matter what, you might be able to unequip your character weapon to stop them from counter attacking to avoid getting kill on character you don't want. The enemy AI will generally target weaker character, so make doubly sure they can't be reached. Hold at chokepoint if the enemy move toward you, move very slowly toward them if they don't. You should be able to carry other character if a weak character is exposed, horseman might be able to move after picking them up to get them out of sticky situation.
 
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(This is basically my second Fire Emblem game, the only other one I played was Shadow Dragon on the DS and I eventually just gave up on it)

NOTE: I'm only 4 chapters in, just did my first Fog of War mission, there are no spoilers here. Playing on Hard with Permadeath.

I...Actually disagree with like 90% of what you said, Critical.

Not that that's bad or anything. It's fine if you don't like it. We all have different taste.

Let's start with the 10% I DO agree with you on.
CritialGaming said:
However you only get to do things on Sunday's, with minor events that happen randomly during the week.

I hate this. Why even have the month laid out if the game doesn't let you chose what to do during those days
As a Persona player, I 100% concur on this. I like to know EXACTLY how much time I have to spend to improve my characters. The Calendar is just so damn flowy that it feels wrong.

Now, by chapter 4, I think I have a handle on it. Each month, you get 3 Free Days where you get to roam the school, or go to a Seminar, or do an optional battle. And you get 3 Study Days where you get to individually inject tiny bits of skill EXP into your characters if they have the Motivation bar for it.

Now that I know that (And that you only really NEED to explore the school once a month), it's making managing them a little better, although I still worry that I'm building my characters wrong.

And also, I do agree that the introduction feels almost stupidly rushed with how fast they make you a teacher. Still, they do actually justify it.

Basically, you only got the job because the actual teacher abandoned his class when the bandits attacked at the start of the game, and his ass got fired as a result. So, on a tight schedule to find a new teacher and that one suckup knight singing your praises, they were like "Fine, you know what, you can teach. But we're going to be grading YOU on that first 'mock battle' to see if you're up to standards".

At which point I demolished the other two armies with ease (none of my units were ever in real danger) and they went "Oh. Right. The hero has actual combat experience and we're just a bunch of academics. Yeah, having an actual combatant teach combat is a good idea". So...It makes sense, despite the rush at the start.

That and your dad is suckered back into working for them because they guilt trip him with "You owe us a favor, and the current captain of the knights is an old dude who can't keep up anymore, so shut up and train a replacement for us, would ya?" and he can't exactly run off without looking like a complete asshole who hates the church (which would be a huuuge social no-no).


Now let's get to the disagreement.

Nevermind the fact that these three ruling nations just happen to send there kids off to the same military school so they can all learn how to fight themselves? I am not sure how the politics work with that. Maybe there is an outside nation as well but that's not introduced in the story up to my point yet.
This is brought up I forget where, but the school was founded for the exact purpose of bringing the nations together to a) avoid inter-nation wars, b) Make sure that they kept churning out quality commanders so that if another large scale problem happened like in the intro cutscene, every nation would have loads of people to handle it. c) PROOOOOBABLY to propagandize the future leaders of the 3 nations with the concept of "Never ever EVER go against the church, it is not a good idea, you will die, NEVER go against us EVER, do you understand?" probably to hold onto their own political power.

Oh and let's talk about skills for a minute. Like Breath of Wild, your character's weapons can break and if they break in battle, that character is useless for the rest of the fight.
You know you can give them multiple weapons, right? I never leave the academy without a backup weapon on each character.

At worst a character will be useless for one enemy turn until you can swap their item on your next turn.

Also Skills eat up more durablity than normal attacks, but they also don't do any more damage than a normal attack and therefore are fucking useless
I notice pretty decent damage increases with skills. Not enough to spam them nonstop, but still a decent bump.

Like, I use normal attacks most of the time, but if I absolutely need something dead this turn, I will break out the skills for that extra damage bump and accuracy bonus. Let alone that it lets bows hit one more tile away, which is GROOVY.

That and I've gotten at least one skill (Knightkneeler for Spears) which deals significantly more damage to mounted units, although I've never had the chance to use it so far, so I don't know quite how big a bonus it is.

The problem is that the combat is sooooooo RNG focused, that you are going to loose characters and there is fuck all you can do about it.
Welcome to the XCOM school of Tactical RPGs.

Let me tell you the Golden Rule in these kinds of games.

"Minimize risk first, have at least one backup plan, THEN exploit opportunities". Works like a charm most of the time.

If you hit the ZR button, it'll show you the "Danger Zone" where a unit might be at risk of being attacked, and after you've moved a unit, you will see a nifty red line moving from enemies to your units showing EXACTLY who is going to be attacked next turn, allowing you to make sure that vulnerable units are kept safe (Behind your tanky units, or at least hiding in a forest, etc)

I've lost units twice so far. The first time was totally my fault, as I pushed ahead in a map with no cover AND split the party, and let two squishy units end up in a bad spot. So, I hit the Rewind Time button, went back to the first turn, actually played it safe, and no one was in remotely any danger after that.

And the second time was a generic "allied CPU" unit that just rushed into danger and I was like "Welp, I can't save the stupid. Have fun dying rushing ahead while I play it safe, mate"

So far, the game's been pretty easy, with only one of the optional missions being actually a hearty challenge.

I could make some snark about how I'm just so amazing at TRPGs, but that'd be a lie, I never beat XCOM 1 or 2 on anything higher than Normal, nor have I finished a run of the Long War mod for XCOM 2, nor have I finished Mario Versus Rabbids yet. I'm good, but not so good that if Three Houses was insanely hard I'd turn it into a cakewalk. I just stick to the Golden Rule.

Basically, try to bait enemies into coming to YOU, and set yourself up so that they'll impale themselves on your front line (preferably you in a forest and them not), and you'll just slaughter them next turn. Try to soften enemies up outside their attack range (Fighters on their archers, archers/mages on their fighters), and finish them off with your lower level characters to give them a big bump to EXP so they can get their essential first class change.

It's worked like a charm for me.

But hey, this is just my kind of tactical game. It's fine if you don't like it. We all have different taste.

I'd recommend Wargroove, actually. There's surprisingly little RNG there, and such a huge amount of positioning strategy to play around with that it's insane. Also, the CO powers are just plain fantastic.

But the fact that nobody mentions how RNG can just shit in your mouth is mind blowing to me
Then NEVERRRRR play XCOM 1 or 2. Never EVERRRR.

I have missed a shotgun blast on a big old easy target from one tile away, only to see that unit I poured hours into get instantly murdered the next turn. I have missed 95% level shots. I have gotten randomized map layouts that screw me over. I have gotten engaged on by 2 squads at once, when by all accounts the other squad should not have been in range, which nearly wiped my entire team, and sent 3 guys to the medbay for a month. I have wound up with units who are ONE goddamn tile away from the exit on the last turn, and had to leave a unit behind.

And I still love the games. Because minimizing risk and forcing the game to bend to my multiple backup plans is just something I enjoy.
 

Catfood220

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CritialGaming said:
Oh and let's talk about skills for a minute. Like Breath of Wild, your character's weapons can break and if they break in battle, that character is useless for the rest of the fight. Also Skills eat up more durablity than normal attacks, but they also don't do any more damage than a normal attack and therefore are fucking useless. (at least early-game, things might change later admittedly). The only difference I see from skills is that have different hit ranges, so while your normal attack can't hit a certain enemy you might be able to use a skill to hit it. But that doesn't seem very common.
Ok, my experience with the Fire Emblem series is Path of Radiance on the Gamecube and Radiant Dawn on the Wii and briefly Awakening on the 3DS which I never play so I never got very far in that game, so my experience with the series is probably not as thorough as other peoples. However, in those games that I have played, your characters can carry about four weapons each, so if I saw that peoples weapon might break on the next mission, I'd give them an extra weapon. Unless they've changed it, the weapons had a usage number and when that number got low, you know it was going to break.

Anyway, this game has got decent reviews, so I think I'll pick it up this week after I've been paid and spend the weekend checking this out for myself.
 

SupahEwok

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Meiam said:
So first things to say, fire emblem changed immensely in the last few entries it had. It used to be very niche, it had a good following but didn't sell that well, awakening was probably going to be the last one, so they decided to be more creative and abandoned a lot of what was the stable of the series. This ended working well for them and making awakening a smash hit.
I think what you mean to say is that "they sold out to the weebs" and started raking in the weeb bucks, leading to the series now having (d)evolved to being a high school sim. Cuz there's never enough high school shit for anime.
 

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SupahEwok said:
Meiam said:
So first things to say, fire emblem changed immensely in the last few entries it had. It used to be very niche, it had a good following but didn't sell that well, awakening was probably going to be the last one, so they decided to be more creative and abandoned a lot of what was the stable of the series. This ended working well for them and making awakening a smash hit.
I think what you mean to say is that "they sold out to the weebs" and started raking in the weeb bucks, leading to the series now having (d)evolved to being a high school sim. Cuz there's never enough high school shit for anime.
Question.

Have you played the game?
 

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aegix drakan said:
but the school was founded for the exact purpose of bringing the nations together to a) avoid inter-nation wars, b) Make sure that they kept churning out quality commanders so that if another large scale problem happened like in the intro cutscene, every nation would have loads of people to handle it.
So, it's Battle School right? Totally Battle School.

Also, isn't that potentially self-defeating? Like, if point a fails, then because of point b, you've got plenty of capable commanders who are probably going to get more people killed than before.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Question.

Have you played the game?
Plus it's always funny how people don't really get what "weeb' and "otaku" actually mean. If FE had sold out exclusively to that crowd then it wouldn't be around since that's the equivalent of pandering to "hardcore" gamers. Obviously they didn't considering how the series' popularity has exploded over the past seven years
 

Lufia Erim

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Meiam said:
Fire emblem used to have no difficulty setting (at most it would have an extremely hard setting that only unlocked after you finished the game) and permadeath was always on. Newer game have shifted toward multiple difficulty and permadeath being optional. This meant it went from being an extremely tightly crafted experience because the dev could focus on balancing one difficulty system to one where they have to juggle a bunch of them (2 difficulties + optional permadeath means 4 different experience). On top of that it used to be that you couldn't take part in optional/repeatable fight for extra exp, but that also seems to be going away. As such you really shouldn't play with permadeath on anymore, the game is simply not designed for that and it's just a vestigial feature.
This. This right here is the reason that i no longer have any interest in FE.
 
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Hawki said:
aegix drakan said:
but the school was founded for the exact purpose of bringing the nations together to a) avoid inter-nation wars, b) Make sure that they kept churning out quality commanders so that if another large scale problem happened like in the intro cutscene, every nation would have loads of people to handle it.
So, it's Battle School right? Totally Battle School.

Also, isn't that potentially self-defeating? Like, if point a fails, then because of point b, you've got plenty of capable commanders who are probably going to get more people killed than before.
*looks at the second trailer*

*looks back at you*

Yup. Pretty much.
 

SupahEwok

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erttheking said:
SupahEwok said:
Meiam said:
So first things to say, fire emblem changed immensely in the last few entries it had. It used to be very niche, it had a good following but didn't sell that well, awakening was probably going to be the last one, so they decided to be more creative and abandoned a lot of what was the stable of the series. This ended working well for them and making awakening a smash hit.
I think what you mean to say is that "they sold out to the weebs" and started raking in the weeb bucks, leading to the series now having (d)evolved to being a high school sim. Cuz there's never enough high school shit for anime.
Question.

Have you played the game?
That's a silly question, why would I play a game I thought would be shit?

Really do hate that question, as it implies that my abstaining from a game I would hate means that my opinion is invalid, despite the inherent fallacy in needing to personally experience a thing to judge a thing. I don't gotta experience starvation and deprivation to know they're not gonna be pleasant.

But hey, you want a more informed answer, why not, this is the first day work's let me off at 5 for a couple weeks and I got some time. I was a hardcore FE fan for years growing up. Favorite game series. At one point I was considering writing a retrospective covering the entire damn series, Japanese only games included, until Awakening permanently killed my love for the thing. Honestly would have been longer and more detailed than my capstone project report for my undergraduate degree.

I watch some anime too. That's why I can tell you that Awakening was the moment the series decided to sell out to the weebs. Let's bring in this comment at this time...

Aiddon said:
erttheking said:
Question.

Have you played the game?
Plus it's always funny how people don't really get what "weeb' and "otaku" actually mean. If FE had sold out exclusively to that crowd then it wouldn't be around since that's the equivalent of pandering to "hardcore" gamers. Obviously they didn't considering how the series' popularity has exploded over the past seven years
Don't give me that line. The market for weeb shit is immense, more so in Japan than out of it, but it's still big in the States and elsewhere. Shonens and isekais and harem animes print money no matter how shallow, full of cheap titillation, and how much they re-use the same tired tropes and plot beats that are such insular cliche's of Japanese animation that you can call something's writing "like an anime", and people will understand what you mean. For everything legitimately great like Cowboy Bebop or Baccano!, you've got a dozen Highschool DxD's, Sword Art Onlines, and Narutos. And hey, I've watched some Naruto in my time, and enjoyed it. Doesn't mean it's not crap. Although shonens can generally rise above the absolute pandering of the harems and isekais, so those get my ire more.

You know what Awakening did? It dumbed down its characters, many of them into those tired anime cliche's, it dumbed down its plot to practically braindead (the plot of FE has rarely if ever been stellar, but it usually at least met the low bar of "serviceable"), and it introduced a mechanic specifically to let people "ship" characters, a practice endemic among fandoms but particularly prevalent in weebdom, and something that had had a very low emphasis up to that point in the series. Mechanically, it was dumbed down too, although that was somewhat mixed. I'm not gonna bother getting into a full on critical analysis on the game money economy and action economy, but the map victory conditions were extremely dumbed down, map design itself was boring, and grinding random encounters in a turn-based strategy game is never good design. And the character designs started getting fetishist. FE had actually been pretty decent on reasonable character designs, especially for female characters. All you had for sins was some short skirts, especially on pegasus knights, but it never felt like cheap gratification. I'm not gonna go so far as to say they were realist or anything, but they helped to contribute to a heavier, more deliberate atmosphere than most media with anime-inspired character designs. Awakening wanted to support its shipping mechanic by giving something for weebs to get excited over that didn't involve them needing to read.

I broke with the series there. I was willing to give Fates a try if I observed that the designers backpedaled, but nope, they doubled down. You can't bullshit me on what kind of consumer the petting mechanic was meant to court, and I don't care that it was censored from the western release, a dev team that thought that was a good idea to include is not going to fix the writing and design issues I had with Awakening, and I buried the series for good. I didn't bother looking into Echos or whatever that next game was. I didn't care it was a remake, or that a trusted source told me that it was a break away from weeb shit, A) I knew that the next game would triple down on weeb shit and I didn't want to get my hopes up (and if you're gonna say that basing the next game as a high school instructor isn't tripling down on weeb shit, boy howdy), B) Shadow Dragon was a remake too, and to make it clear that I'm not wearing nostalgia goggles, Shadow Dragon was a shit game even without weeb pandering. Radiant Dawn hadn't had the marketing push it needed, and had been designed to be too difficult, so sales were bad there, and Shadow Dragon was the chance to turn the series around, and it missed on that. I here its Japan-only sequel was actually good, but Nintendo had cold feet on the series cuz they thought that westerners just didn't care for it anymore rather than realize the other issues with the previous 2 games.

Like, I know why Intelligent Systems sold out to the weebs. Series of mistakes and corporate pressure necessitated it. I'm not sure if I can blame them. Really depends on the day and my mood. I do know that I wish the series had died instead. I am a jilted lover, and despite my best efforts to avoid having to hear about the damn series, my weeb friends won't shut up about it, and even at work my supervisor insists on talking to me about it, even after I told him my feelings and asked him not to. I let him anyway cuz he's honestly overworked and overblamed on this massive project we're doing and he has nobody else there he can talk to about videogames with anime characters so he can take his mind off of things, but god damn does it mean that I can't avoid running into the game wherever I go, so fuck it, yes, I wish it had burned and IS had moved on to something else.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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SupahEwok said:
Let's translate: "I'm not a xenophobe, I watched an anime once!"

Dude, you're not fooling anyone. You're surprised that a game published by a Japanese company, developed by a Japanese team, and is made mostly for a Japanese audience...is very Japanese in its storytelling and style? Whoop-dee-doo, you're forced to acknowledge other cultures. Furthermore describing something as "anime" is Orientalist BS. If someone is seriously going to tell me that Monster is told the same way as Yuu Yuu Hakusho, Cowboy Bebop, Sailor Moon, or Gundam then that says more about them than anything.
 
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SupahEwok said:
Yup, you sound like a former fan of something. Only a former fan would make a 6 paragraph dissertation on why something sucks now.

I know the feel. On my end, I don't think I can ever forgive the Kingdom Hearts Series after what they did with the plot at the end of Dream Drop Distance (Retroactively ruining the plots and victories of the previous games, and then resolving the current crisis with literal random chance). Unless I get the chance to play 3 completely for free, I have no interest.

So yeah, while I'll disagree with you about 3 houses, I won't try to convince you otherwise.
 

SupahEwok

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Aiddon said:
SupahEwok said:
Let's translate: "I'm not a xenophobe, I watched an anime once!"

Dude, you're not fooling anyone. You're surprised that a game published by a Japanese company, developed by a Japanese team, and is made mostly for a Japanese audience...is very Japanese in its storytelling and style? Whoop-dee-doo, you're forced to acknowledge other cultures. Furthermore describing something as "anime" is Orientalist BS. If someone is seriously going to tell me that Monster is told the same way as Yuu Yuu Hakusho, Cowboy Bebop, Sailor Moon, or Gundam then that says more about them than anything.
...Are you really calling me a xenophobe?

You're not even acknowledging the fact that I loved games from this Japanese company, developed by this Japanese team, that were made exclusively for a Japanese audience until somebody managed to sneak a couple of characters into Smash Bros and an executive figured they'd give it a shot to plan to release the next installment overseas, and that it wasn't until a stylistic change that I described in fair detail that my feelings changed.

But whatever, my dude. I've watched enough anime to have discernment in the anime I watch. Dismiss me by calling me racist if it makes you feel better about your viewing choices. I ain't gonna go through my watchlist and list every anime I've ever watched in part or whole, and every Japanese game I've ever played, just cuz you like pat dismissals rather than engagement with somebody you seem to disagree with.
 

SupahEwok

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aegix drakan said:
SupahEwok said:
Yup, you sound like a former fan of something. Only a former fan would make a 6 paragraph dissertation on why something sucks now.

I know the feel. On my end, I don't think I can ever forgive the Kingdom Hearts Series after what they did with the plot at the end of Dream Drop Distance (Retroactively ruining the plots and victories of the previous games, and then resolving the current crisis with literal random chance). Unless I get the chance to play 3 completely for free, I have no interest.

So yeah, while I'll disagree with you about 3 houses, I won't try to convince you otherwise.
I appreciate that. I only wrote the dissertation cuz "Have you played the game?" is a peeve fallacy of mine. I originally was gonna drop my couple lines of acrid observation and leave.
 

Erttheking

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SupahEwok said:
erttheking said:
SupahEwok said:
Meiam said:
So first things to say, fire emblem changed immensely in the last few entries it had. It used to be very niche, it had a good following but didn't sell that well, awakening was probably going to be the last one, so they decided to be more creative and abandoned a lot of what was the stable of the series. This ended working well for them and making awakening a smash hit.
I think what you mean to say is that "they sold out to the weebs" and started raking in the weeb bucks, leading to the series now having (d)evolved to being a high school sim. Cuz there's never enough high school shit for anime.
Question.

Have you played the game?
That's a silly question, why would I play a game I thought would be shit?

Really do hate that question, as it implies that my abstaining from a game I would hate means that my opinion is invalid, despite the inherent fallacy in needing to personally experience a thing to judge a thing. I don't gotta experience starvation and deprivation to know they're not gonna be pleasant.

But hey, you want a more informed answer, why not, this is the first day work's let me off at 5 for a couple weeks and I got some time. I was a hardcore FE fan for years growing up. Favorite game series. At one point I was considering writing a retrospective covering the entire damn series, Japanese only games included, until Awakening permanently killed my love for the thing. Honestly would have been longer and more detailed than my capstone project report for my undergraduate degree.

I watch some anime too. That's why I can tell you that Awakening was the moment the series decided to sell out to the weebs. Let's bring in this comment at this time...

Aiddon said:
erttheking said:
Question.

Have you played the game?
Plus it's always funny how people don't really get what "weeb' and "otaku" actually mean. If FE had sold out exclusively to that crowd then it wouldn't be around since that's the equivalent of pandering to "hardcore" gamers. Obviously they didn't considering how the series' popularity has exploded over the past seven years
Don't give me that line. The market for weeb shit is immense, more so in Japan than out of it, but it's still big in the States and elsewhere. Shonens and isekais and harem animes print money no matter how shallow, full of cheap titillation, and how much they re-use the same tired tropes and plot beats that are such insular cliche's of Japanese animation that you can call something's writing "like an anime", and people will understand what you mean. For everything legitimately great like Cowboy Bebop or Baccano!, you've got a dozen Highschool DxD's, Sword Art Onlines, and Narutos. And hey, I've watched some Naruto in my time, and enjoyed it. Doesn't mean it's not crap. Although shonens can generally rise above the absolute pandering of the harems and isekais, so those get my ire more.

You know what Awakening did? It dumbed down its characters, many of them into those tired anime cliche's, it dumbed down its plot to practically braindead (the plot of FE has rarely if ever been stellar, but it usually at least met the low bar of "serviceable"), and it introduced a mechanic specifically to let people "ship" characters, a practice endemic among fandoms but particularly prevalent in weebdom, and something that had had a very low emphasis up to that point in the series. Mechanically, it was dumbed down too, although that was somewhat mixed. I'm not gonna bother getting into a full on critical analysis on the game money economy and action economy, but the map victory conditions were extremely dumbed down, map design itself was boring, and grinding random encounters in a turn-based strategy game is never good design. And the character designs started getting fetishist. FE had actually been pretty decent on reasonable character designs, especially for female characters. All you had for sins was some short skirts, especially on pegasus knights, but it never felt like cheap gratification. I'm not gonna go so far as to say they were realist or anything, but they helped to contribute to a heavier, more deliberate atmosphere than most media with anime-inspired character designs. Awakening wanted to support its shipping mechanic by giving something for weebs to get excited over that didn't involve them needing to read.

I broke with the series there. I was willing to give Fates a try if I observed that the designers backpedaled, but nope, they doubled down. You can't bullshit me on what kind of consumer the petting mechanic was meant to court, and I don't care that it was censored from the western release, a dev team that thought that was a good idea to include is not going to fix the writing and design issues I had with Awakening, and I buried the series for good. I didn't bother looking into Echos or whatever that next game was. I didn't care it was a remake, or that a trusted source told me that it was a break away from weeb shit, A) I knew that the next game would triple down on weeb shit and I didn't want to get my hopes up (and if you're gonna say that basing the next game as a high school instructor isn't tripling down on weeb shit, boy howdy), B) Shadow Dragon was a remake too, and to make it clear that I'm not wearing nostalgia goggles, Shadow Dragon was a shit game even without weeb pandering. Radiant Dawn hadn't had the marketing push it needed, and had been designed to be too difficult, so sales were bad there, and Shadow Dragon was the chance to turn the series around, and it missed on that. I here its Japan-only sequel was actually good, but Nintendo had cold feet on the series cuz they thought that westerners just didn't care for it anymore rather than realize the other issues with the previous 2 games.

Like, I know why Intelligent Systems sold out to the weebs. Series of mistakes and corporate pressure necessitated it. I'm not sure if I can blame them. Really depends on the day and my mood. I do know that I wish the series had died instead. I am a jilted lover, and despite my best efforts to avoid having to hear about the damn series, my weeb friends won't shut up about it, and even at work my supervisor insists on talking to me about it, even after I told him my feelings and asked him not to. I let him anyway cuz he's honestly overworked and overblamed on this massive project we're doing and he has nobody else there he can talk to about videogames with anime characters so he can take his mind off of things, but god damn does it mean that I can't avoid running into the game wherever I go, so fuck it, yes, I wish it had burned and IS had moved on to something else.
Yeah, I had a feeling. If only because, no offense, your criticisms feel pretty off base. If you were talking about Fates I?d have to agree with you, but instead of generic high school anime, Three Houses has been reminding me of Suikoden. Look, I?m not trying to be an asshole, I?m critical of media I don?t consume too, but there?s criticisms of media you don?t consume and then there?s baseless criticism of media you don?t consume.

Also as a fan of Fire Emblem, ever since Shadow Dragon, I?d appreciate it if you eased up on the weeb rhetoric. It?s inching in the direction of No True Scotsman territory.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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SupahEwok said:
Uh, yeah, because you're spouting Japanophobic rhetoric straight out of the Reagan Era. You can yell "but I like Japanese games!" until you're blue in the face, but it's clear you don't ACTUALLY like Japanese culture and storytelling. People can still be Japanophobic despite watching anime or playing Japanese games
 

SupahEwok

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Aiddon said:
SupahEwok said:
Uh, yeah, because you're spouting Japanophobic rhetoric straight out of the Reagan Era. You can yell "but I like Japanese games!" until you're blue in the face, but it's clear you don't ACTUALLY like Japanese culture and storytelling. People can still be Japanophobic despite watching anime or playing Japanese games
Man, you are seriously dissing every Japanese novelist (yes, there is Japanese storytelling outside of the manga/anime/light novel industry) out there if you wanna stake the claim that Japanese storytelling amounts to Highschool DxD.
 

SupahEwok

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erttheking said:
Yeah, I had a feeling. If only because, no offense, your criticisms feel pretty off base. If you were talking about Fates I?d have to agree with you, but instead of generic high school anime, Three Houses has been reminding me of Suikoden. Look, I?m not trying to be an asshole, I?m critical of media I don?t consume too, but there?s criticisms of media you don?t consume and then there?s baseless criticism of media you don?t consume.
I've heard folks say this, I've heard folks say that, I've had my supervisor tell me today that when he was playing that a girl wanted help finding her "blue cloth" that apparently was censored in the western translation, and in Japan are panties.

I feel safe in my opinions. I researched a bit before posting in this thread today that the panties thing may be a hoax, but I've seen and heard enough from sources I am familiar with and know how to interpret to know that although my opinion is not nuanced, I am highly unlikely to find it wrong if I played the game. Did this same song and dance when Fates was out.

Man, I even really like Persona 3, but I have no desire to have a half-take on it crossed with nu-FE waifu shipping. At least the eugenics program was dropped.

erttheking said:
Also as a fan of Fire Emblem, ever since Shadow Dragon, I?d appreciate it if you eased up on the weeb rhetoric. It?s inching in the direction of No True Scotsman territory.
Won't do that, chief. The Shadow Dragon claim doesn't have any hold for me given that I said that that game was pretty bad*, and it was the (western) release immediately preceding Awakening, where I said the series sold out.

At least you aren't calling me a racist for being critical of bad anime media, so I give you props for that, my man.

*I suspect it was rushed out the door, although I've never looked into it in detail; I used to think that the team just wanted to be too faithful to an 80's game, but in hindsight, they added a couple new systems and modernized a decent chunk of the game, so it being unpolished seems most likely. There likely aren't any good sources anyway, the series bible that was released only covered the series pre-Shadow Dragon iirc. It did have some details on the canned N64 game that the 3 GBA games all cannibalized elements from tho... I have mentioned that at one point I was considering a major retrospective piece that would have been a decent size piece of literature academia. I've done a chunk of research on the series.