Fire Emblem Fates Review - Big Shoes To Fill

Logience

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You know, it's kinda difficult to tell which parts of what you're complaining about when you just delete the whole topic, yet still respond to it in strides.

erttheking said:
Really it just comes off as you wanting everyone to play the game the way yourself want to.
Where's the problem in asking people to push themselves? It's still up to them to take my advice, so don't get stressed out about it.

Situations where you had a potion in the games instead of a fairy means progress lost if you didn't drink it manually.
That's what I said: they were a method of keeping players in the action without having to use a potion from the menu.

Are you honestly talking about how something makes a game less grindy when we're talking about something designed to prevent resetting whole levels constantly?
Yes. If you're low on health at any point in the first four Metroids, if there wasn't a nearby HP recharge station, you could just go around killing weak enemies for health and missile pickups. I'm not complaining about their inclusion, I'm saying that recharge stations are just streamlined methods for getting desired results.

So. What? All of these problems? You can freely ignore them by playing the classic game mode. What is the big deal here? Are you really that concerned about people playing the game in a way you don't approve of?
It doesn't affect me as I'm playing, no. But it will affect how people will see Fire Emblem, and I just don't see the harm in trying to ask people to reconsider. What does seem harmful is how you're assuming my recommendations are an act of hostility and elitism when they're just suggestions for people to consider before they play.
 

kenu12345

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Slycne said:
Oh man, I forgot to mention that Fates does have one major improvement over Awakening. Characters have feet!


Praise the lord for he have blessed all with feet finally!
 

Erttheking

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Logience said:
I respond to it section by section, it's very clear.

How about this. They don't want to be pushed. When they want to be pushed, the option is right there waiting for them. And it's not a matter of advice, you were riding that guy's ass about him not wanting to have permadeath, and you yourself said you get "upset" over this.

In a situation that would otherwise result in a game over. Kind of like what's in Fire Emblem now.

Or die. Certainly happened to me a lot. Streamlined to get results? Surely the same could be said about Fire Emblem. I mean why can't it be?

How? How will it affect how people see Fire Emblem? Can it only be seen as the way you want it to be seen if all other options are cut off? The ability to save scum in XCOM Enemy Unknown didn't do anything to affect it's image of hard as balls. So why is it a problem here? The way you were acting goes beyond suggesting something. If you were just suggesting something you would've dropped it when the guy made it clear he wasn't interested. Plus all the comments on how the way the game was "meant" to be played and that there were other games he could play if he had a problem with that.
 

Fox12

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Silvanus said:
Logience said:
Why? The point of Fire Emblem is to go through the levels preventing units from getting beaten at all. If a unit gets killed, you're supposed to reset, figure out what went wrong, and do the level over in a manner that'll prevent this. Getting used to units getting killed is a terrible habit.

Like I said: Take your time, learn how to play, and the rest will flow from there.
The point of any game is to get through without dying (except maybe Limbo). This just seems to punish failure rather excessively for a first playthrough.

If resetting the battle is always an option, that's fine. I hadn't realised that.
Ugh. Just play it on normal with permadeath off. If you like it, then you can replay it with permadeath on. I like permadeath, but you shouldn't let people guilt you into playing a certain way. Besides, if you get characters killed, you could miss interesting bits of content. It's your precious time and money, enjoy it. Ignore the people who want to give you a hard time. They'll sour the well for everyone. Just have f in : ]

Logience said:
Silvanus said:
This just seems to punish failure rather excessively for a first playthrough.
That's what failure is supposed to be: punishing. You screwed up, so now you have to suffer consequences. Casual mode's problem is how it utterly removes the need for players to suffer consequences for their actions.

Losing a unit is your failure, and as consequence, your punishment is to either move on without them - locking off content by doing so - or to reset the level to ensure you get to experience that content - at the cost of being forced to do the level all over to learn a lesson from your mistakes.
How can you act high and mighty for playing on classic mode one minute, then turn around and talk about reloading the minute something doesn't go your way? It's like people who complain about magic in Dark Souls. Who cares? When did single player games become a dick measuring contest?
 

Joccaren

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Silvanus said:
Logience said:
Why? The point of Fire Emblem is to go through the levels preventing units from getting beaten at all. If a unit gets killed, you're supposed to reset, figure out what went wrong, and do the level over in a manner that'll prevent this. Getting used to units getting killed is a terrible habit.

Like I said: Take your time, learn how to play, and the rest will flow from there.
The point of any game is to get through without dying (except maybe Limbo). This just seems to punish failure rather excessively for a first playthrough.

If resetting the battle is always an option, that's fine. I hadn't realised that.
Yeah, you can always reset the battle.

For the difficulty without classic, imagine an RTS where as long as you won the battle, every single one of your units would return at full health at the end of it. You'd end up just steamrolling the enemy, because you'd fight their army, and then your army would respawn, and you could just charge their defences without having to worry about keeping your people alive.
Or a game of Civ where whenever you capture a city, you get all the units that city killed back at full health.

It just kind of breaks the game. Its good for if you want to just rush through the story and not worry about the gameplay, but if you're there for the gameplay you'll need to play classic. And you'll reset a fair bit. Can't tell you how many times my flying unit has been off to the side and I forgot they had an archer nearby. RIP. But, you restart, learn not to move near archers, ever, at all, under any circumstances, with flying units, and beat the level with no deaths.

And then there's the fun of trying to pair your shippings, and get their relationships up, even if they're not the best combat units, whilst still winning the game. Its doable, but you won't always be able to go for the optimal strategy of assured victory to do so. Makes the game more fun and interesting, if you lose a unit just restart the mission [They can't stop you from doing that. Worst case you could just party wipe and HAVE to restart the mission, but there is an option to just restart there and then too].

erttheking said:
Logience said:
erttheking said:
Oh let him play the game the way he wants to. Some people, like you and I, like a challenge. Some people just want to have a good time. Neither way is the "right" way.
This game is meant to be a strategy game, to give an intellectual thrill. If people just want a base "video gamey" thrill, there's tons and tons of Mario games for them to play instead.
According to whom? May I ask. Nintendo is the one who made the game, making them the absolute authority on the matter. Since they added this game mode themselves, I don't really see how you can argue that it's not the way the game was "meant" to be. Hell, the game as it exists is the way it was "meant" to be, so what is so wrong about someone using a mode the developers gave to them? It's not exactly diluting your enjoyment of the game. It'd be like saying that you should only play XCOM on ironman mode. No bloody thank you.

I look forward to the day when easy modes aren't treated with disdain.
According to the difficulty names. "Normal" and "Classic" [As opposed to "Casual" or "Newcomers" mode] basically spell out that's the way the game was intended to be played. In many games this is often spelt out as well. Easy is not the way the game was INTENDED to be played, its a way its been ALLOWED to be played so that other people can enjoy the title, even if they're not as good at the gameplay.
That's not a disdain of easy mode, its a simple statement of fact. As I said, many games even highlight in the normal description "This is the way the game was meant to be played". Hard also isn't the way the game was meant to be played, its there for those who would prefer an additional challenge from the gameplay. Normal simply represents the middle ground that the designers felt was the intended experience, with the appropriate balance between story and gameplay such that you weren't too focused on simply the gameplay that you struggled to keep track of the story, but that you were still offered enough engagement by the gameplay that it added to the experience rather than just got in the way of the story components. Of course, people's preferences differ, and that's why other options are there - but that doesn't mean those other options were the way the game was intended to be played, merely a way it can be played.

As an analogy, touch rugby is a thing. You touch someone, and it counts as tackling them and the whole possession of the ball switches and such. Is this the way Rugby was intended to be played? No, no it isn't. Rugby was intended to be a full contact sport. Touch was created as an option for those who don't like the idea of that.
See also things like T-ball vs Baseball. Its an easier version of the game for those who can't play the harder version, or simply don't want to, but it isn't the way the base game is intended to be played, hence the variant offspring rather than specific rules within the base game.

There isn't anything wrong with playing on easier difficulties if it presents you an experience that you'll enjoy more, but it isn't the way the game was meant to be played. Its a way that's been added so that those who don't enjoy the game in the way its meant to be played have an option to still enjoy and play the game. Fire Emblem is intended to be a tactical experience. Because they allow people to experience it as a movie with quick time events doesn't change what it is intended to be, it simply means its provided another option.
And as a note, that option was added 1 game before Awakening in the whole series. There have been 7-9 or something games beforehand that simply didn't have the option, as they weren't interested in accommodating other styles of play. Its the way the game is meant to be played. Always has been.
 

ThatOtherGirl

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Silvanus said:
Logience said:
That's what failure is supposed to be: punishing. You screwed up, so now you have to suffer consequences. Casual mode's problem is how it utterly removes the need for players to suffer consequences for their actions.

Losing a unit is your failure, and as consequence, your punishment is to either move on without them - locking off content by doing so - or to reset the level to ensure you get to experience that content - at the cost of being forced to do the level all over to learn a lesson from your mistakes.
Well, alright, but that's a matter of personal preference, surely. The majority of games do not feature perma-death, after all.

Slycne said:
One thing you can do is play on a pseudo self-imposed Classic. Let the death stand if it feels right and wasn't due to an honest mistake or supremely bad luck. Like having one of your characters gone permanently because they body blocked another character from an attack feels appropriate. Loosing someone to a 2% crit, less so. It doesn't iron man the save, so you can quit back to the home screen and restart the game to end up at your last save.
A good idea. But then I'd feel cheap!

...And with that, I realise that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, too.
Personally, I feel the permadeath in Fire Emblem is nothing special. I honestly think the way it is implemented discourages interesting tactics in favor of sand bagging and reset baiting. Permadeath in Final Fantasy Tactics was far better implemented and actually contributed to the interesting tactical decisions being made.

So really, play how ever you want. I usually ratchet up the difficulty by one notch and turn off permadeath.
 

Logience

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erttheking said:
Complaining about defeatism is a weakness of mine. I assume that people shouldn't let something stop them from pushing themselves to win something using whatever legitimate means they have, therefore I try to compile all the methods people have to keep themselves going. I don't want people to just act as if their only options are either failure or a decision to handicap what's meant to be the idealized experience. What I want to bring across in my arguments about potions and recharge points are a consideration that people shouldn't just assume they're going to lose once they get stuck in a tight spot unless they make the game easier on themselves. The punishment of resetting or getting a game over exists to make people try and try until they get good enough to prevent that punishment. Getting a game over and assuming defeat is not and never should be an acceptable outcome, yet FE14's Casual and Phoenix Modes choose to say otherwise for no good reason.

Fox12 said:
How can you act high and mighty for playing on classic mode one minute, then turn around and talk about reloading the minute something doesn't go your way?
Because losing a unit is Fire Emblem's equivalent to getting a game over. Otherwise you're letting content get taken away from you. Not to mention what could happen if the unit you lost was the only one you trained.

Also, recommending permadeath is not "acting high and mighty", thank you.
 

09philj

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Logience said:
erttheking said:
Complaining about defeatism is a weakness of mine. I assume that people shouldn't let something stop them from pushing themselves to win something using whatever legitimate means they have, therefore I try to compile all the methods people have to keep themselves going. I don't want people to just act as if their only options are either failure or a decision to handicap what's meant to be the idealized experience. What I want to bring across in my arguments about potions and recharge points are a consideration that people shouldn't just assume they're going to lose once they get stuck in a tight spot unless they make the game easier on themselves. The punishment of resetting or getting a game over exists to make people try and try until they get good enough to prevent that punishment. Getting a game over and assuming defeat is not and never should be an acceptable outcome, yet FE14's Casual and Phoenix Modes choose to say otherwise for no good reason.
There is a good reason, and the good reason is that some people may enjoy the story, characters, and level by level game play, but can't be arsed to do it 100% perfectly. I find games which demand perfection are really boring and sterile. I find being free to go off the rails and then manage to drag things back under control is a lot more interesting and dynamic.
 

Logience

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09philj said:
There is a good reason, and the good reason is that some people may enjoy the story, characters, and level by level game play, but can't be arsed to do it 100% perfectly. I find games which demand perfection are really boring and sterile. I find being free to go off the rails and then manage to drag things back under control is a lot more interesting and dynamic.
Who said it needed to be done perfectly? Beating a map without losing a unit isn't perfection, it's an incentive unto itself for the sake of self-confidence and earning content.
 

StormShaun

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That's great.
Can't wait to pick it up.

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Now when are other countries getting it?
'Cause as we know, Europe and Australia's copies are usually gone for a month or two. >.>
 

NinjaTank56

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For people on the fence about their perma-death setting of choice, normally I would say to try out classic and see if it's your cup of tea, but I just can't recommend that to the average gamer. For me, the issues almost always come halfway or more through the game, and even if they didn't, 30+ minutes of wasted time is too much for me, and many others (even if it is a handheld game).
I've played FE and FE: sacred stones on the GBA, and Awakening on the 3DS, and to this day I haven't been able to beat a single one on classic. The difficulty is far too much on the side of trial and error (and memorizing maps) to not be extremely frustrated. The game takes 3-4 times longer on classic for me, between simply taking longer thinking about my moves, and having to restart difficult missions several times. Even with the fog of war maps removed from the 3DS titles, one underestimated attack, or poorly timed enemy reinforcement means you have to start over at the beginning of the level (and don't say "you don't have to start over" because you don't put have enough slots to put throw-away characters in a difficult mission).

If you do decide you want to try classic, I would very much recommend you play on easy (especially if you're on conquest). It will save you a lot of needless frustration and I personally didn't feel any guilt for finishing Awakening on non-classic.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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xaszatm said:
What free pass? The same free pass that got those 100+ comments on those negative Fire Emblem threads? People ARE complaining about the three-way split and is among the pile of reasons why people don't want the game. It's just that most of those reasons...don't really matter for the main game. And even if we go with the "if EA, Activtion did it" excuse...those games still get high reviews even when they do shady things. Nintendo doesn't get any more of a free pass then other companies.
I find it funny because it just reminds me that gamers and the gaming industry have no long-term memory or just ignore history in favor of petty BS. I would have loved to see how people would react to the Zelda: Oracle games getting released in this day and age as they did the exact same thing as FE: Fates, but were only physical and didn't have a discount like this does. And that's before we get into WHY Nintendo gets a "free pass" with this: because they are indeed that good. Which is hilarious considering how they only got into DLC a few years ago.

Anyway, I've already had my order locked down for months and now all I have to do is wait for the game to actually come out. For all the complaining people made over one thing or another is the runup to release we all know that'll be drowned out with the game finally hitting store shelves.
 

Kitsune Hunter

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StormShaun said:
That's great.
Can't wait to pick it up.

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Now when are other countries getting it?
'Cause as we know, Europe and Australia's copies are usually gone for a month or two. >.>
Well look at the bright side, at least we're getting Bravely Second first when it comes out here next week, which makes me think it was done in order to make up for the fact the UK has to wait for Fates.
 

StormShaun

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Kitsune Hunter said:
Well look at the bright side, at least we're getting Bravely Second first when it comes out here next week, which makes me think it was done in order to make up for the fact the UK has to wait for Fates.
Well, it's good for those getting it.
Personally, I'm not, I didn't get the first one either.
After playing the demo, I decided it just wasn't my thing.

Still, that's not the problem. We don't even have a date for Fates. Even the US has a date for Braverly Second. D':
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Interesting interview with the FE team, even getting into what Kibayashi contributed to the narrative.:

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/what-fire-emblem-needs-to-continue-its-mini-renaissance
 

Paragon Fury

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Question;

Did they cut out the bullshit archer, sniper and sniper cavalry spam from Awakening in Fates? Because in Awakening they filled the maps with soooo many archers you basically could not use air units except for Cordellia, and basically had to use Rescue on her after every attack or make sure she never ended a turn where she could possibly be attacked.
 

Random Argument Man

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I bought birthright last Friday. I can honestly say that I have some fun, but find a few things a bit annoying. Sure, it's like Awakening and it's fun. You can basically grind and break the game easily, but I wished it had more mission variation like Conquest has. Also, I recommend switching to "Classic Mode" when you have a good feel of the game.

My biggest nitpick is how much characters this game has. Every main characters has his own group joining you. I haven't done half the game and I have like 15 characters and I still haven't unlocked the child characters that will probably break the game completely.

I used to compare this to pokemon, but someone taught me it's more like the Zelda " Oracle of X" games. Each has separate stories and details. However, once you buy a version, you can buy the other one half-price. Since every path has 30 hours of gameplay, you'll have some a lot of content. I'll probably buy Conquest since it will probably stop me from breaking game mechanics easily. I'm not sure about the revelations part since I'm not aware if the gameplay is like Conquest or Birthright.