Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

ElPatron

New member
Jul 18, 2011
2,130
0
0
TheKasp said:
Also, would you be so kindly to add a source to your "all sex is rape" statement?
You didn't actually bother to read my post, did you?

I'll copypaste it. "She is doing the "all sex is rape" campaign against herself and this time it's not even a misquote."

Now, "all sex is rape". If you want source, google it. It happened. Since you might not read that sentence, here's a quick summary:

Andrea Dworkin. Quite stupidly (IMHO) she "wanted" to say that women should not subdue to men during sex (or so she claimed in hindsight) in her book Intercourse. Opponents usually criticized the book by saying that she was against sex ("violation is a synonym for intercourse" - the quote that started it all). You know how it goes with word of mouth. Basically people started misquoting her, and the "all sex is rape" situation did not make her look good even in the eyes of feminists.

So the lesson here is, if you want to say that "people obtain pleasure from sex in inequality, which is comparable to rape" you have to say that "violation is a synonym for intercourse" because you can be sure that nobody will ever misquote you.


EDIT: changed the name of the author. I got a bit confused because apparently there were TWO feminists that were accused of saying that all sex is rape. Learning everyday, huh?
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Apr 18, 2020
7,687
2,395
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
matrix3509 said:
That's it, I am making it my personal mission to wipe out the entire fucking Hominid family.
That's a lot of wiping out.

May I suggest a relaxing game of DEFCON before you start?
 

blalien

New member
Jul 3, 2009
441
0
0
ElPatron said:
I hate using analogies but here it goes. Just because there is friction between men and women during gender issues you should not attribute to malice what can be just stupidity. Not everything is a crusade. Not everything is misogyny.
Use some common sense. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. You could argue that it might be a goose that looks very similar to a duck. It might be a spy drone with a holographic projection to make it look like a duck. It might be a lily pad but I've been brainwashed to confuse lily pads with ducks. We could never prove with 100% certainty that it's a duck, but chances are it's a duck.

You can argue that the people who are endorsing rape and violence against Sarkeesian are not misogynist, and that not all rape is motivated by misogyny or whatever. But assuming that these people are primarily motivated by misogyny is the simplest and best explanation for what we have seen so far. You're correct that there's a slim chance it might not be misogyny, but it probably is, and I'm going to assume it is until I've seen evidence otherwise.
 

blank0000

New member
Oct 3, 2007
382
0
0
This kind of behavior is why i'm o.k. with a tropes vs woman web series -_-. I'd like to think that the gamer community is mature enough to not need it, but actions like this suggest otherwise
 

ElPatron

New member
Jul 18, 2011
2,130
0
0
blalien said:
I'm going to assume it is until I've seen evidence otherwise.
The smallest asteroid in the universe is made of mushed peas and speaks French.

Prove me wrong.

The Lunatic said:
If this was a guy, do you think anyone would have as much issue with it?
A pretentious guy with a college degree in bullshittism, shoving his "culture" and "ideals" on our faces to make himself look really smart and using real world issues (which very are serious) as a way of stroking his ego into orgasm? Not only that, but also pretending to speak for all women while making claims without any substance about music and books?

I say shitstorm incoming, with bonus points for being the typical "knight in shiny armor defending the fragile, weak women" (people would actually accuse him of being like that).
 

Matt_LRR

Unequivocal Fan Favorite
Nov 30, 2009
1,260
0
0
I?m going to edit out the parts relating to our misunderstanding as they aren?t really relevant anymore.

Tenmar said:
You are right that on the surface it does run contrary to equal rights. But on the other hand there was a reason that women did fight to be treated to be equal to that of men. Yet the issue comes towards that of safety and security comes the question of if there "is actually a problem?" that does warrant that trade of liberty for that security. Personally I will disagree with such a notion and while we all know that molestation is bad, violence is bad, the hard truth is that there are a lot of bad things out there that affect us. However it is up to us to be vigilant and also understand that we have a code of laws that empower people to stop such acts and also punish people who decide to violate said law based on our philosophical standards that are constantly changing.
So, what is the infringement on liberty in the case of creating a safe space for women? Let?s go with the subway example some more. Given that the use of such safe spaces is voluntary, not mandated (that is, women may choose whether or not they wish to ride in a car that has been deemed ?women only?) Where is liberty being infringed?

Women are being given an option that allows them a chance to travel free from the threat of sexual assault. Men already travel free from the threat of sexual assault. That would seem to be generating liberty, rather than infringing it ? not to mention making the state of being more equal between men and women.

Tenmar said:
However do note the action to solve a problem does not always relate to the quantity of the problem. As sad as this maybe for me to say this and this is coming from a person whose father was a police officer there is only so much crime you can prevent. It is up to the people to uphold the law and understand the consequences. You can't actually have a certified system and when it comes to urban areas where populations are extremely condensed and considering the various cultural standards other countries have there are going to be victims due to people being uneducated for their own personal heritage from their family where these people do not treat people as equals. That's the sad hard truth. However to then point to video games and ignore the economic situation, cultural, and individual heritage is a bit off. Especially when we make the cultural jump from applying more western standards and how we understand the world to other countries like Japan and India. Wouldn't their definition of feminist theory be quite different than our own? Or is it really meant to be a universal theory that should be applied regardless of the religion or culture?
There are a couple of questions you?ve asked me to address here, and they?re kind of bound up together., and they seem like they might be easier to answer from last to first.

1. is it really meant to be a universal theory that should be applied regardless of the religion or culture?

This is a question that modern feminism (like modern human rights philosophy) is currently struggling with ? because it simultaneously has to weigh two competing ideals against each other. The first, that there is value inherent in every culture, and cultural superiority narratives tend to be wielded as tools of oppression, and the second, that women are fundamentally and universally of equal value to men and subsequently deserving of absolute equal rights. I don?t have a specific answer to this question other than to state that oppression systems, and the rights arguments that are constructed around them are intersectional in nature, and that intersectionality must be held in consideration when discussing these issues if they are to be anything more than a discussion of the equal rights of straight, white, cisgender, western women in America.

2. Wouldn't their definition of feminist theory be quite different than our own?

Yes and no, dependent on your perspective, essentially for the reasons noted above. What equal rights means, and the specific struggles achievements of those rights entails is likely to vary somewhat dramatically from culture to culture. Women?s issues in America include reproductive rights and wage gaps, issues that themselves might be incoherent in another cultural context where the issues are women?s right not to be treated as property, or women?s rights to work at all. But the fundamental principles would be likely to be similar ? that all women deserve fundamental equality to men.

3. Especially when we make the cultural jump from applying more western standards and how we understand the world to other countries like Japan and India.

The thing is, we are also now operating in a marketplace of cultural export and import ? and We are not wrong to criticize as problematic within our own cultural context a game that was developed in another. Even if the character of (say) Bayonetta is progressive from within a Japanese cultural context ? that doesn?t mean that an American that buys and plays it can?t comment on, or criticize the ways in which it regressive according to our own. The critic may or may not have the goal of effecting a change in the developer?s subsequent projects towards a more western perspective, and there may or may not be some cultural imperialism inherent in that end ? but there?s certainly nothing wrong with raising awareness of how imported media is problematic, and helping to educate those who may be exposing themselves to that media the subtle reinforcements of casual *isms the game may carry with it as a result.

Tenmar said:
But I think the reason that I try and ignore your statements is that more or less I find it to be a non-issue from the actual heart of the issue which is the actual development of video games. I mean we can bring up all these assholes who make flash games as kneejerk reactions with all the conspiracy of a scam but that doesn't really get us anywhere. Neither does a project that analyzes the characters but outright ignores the logical extension of her stance which is the question, "are video game developers making games for fun, or are they actually sexist pushing a sexist agenda?". As black and white it is that is the logical extension. Cause you can't really give a pass if you firmly beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt to all the game developers and artists if you think they are causing or promoting sexism to which I would argue has actually gone down much like violence as a crime.
No one, not even Ms. Sarkeesian herself would likely suggest that (for instance) all game developers, (or even most) are actively sexist and intentionally making sexist games. In fact, if that were the case, the video series we?re talking about would be an entirely different animal. The purpose of a series like tropes versus women is to analyze the ways in which game developers are casually, subtly, and unintentionally sexist ? with the aim of helping to make them aware of the ways in which their games alienate a large and potentially very lucrative audience. You can?t fix an error you?re not even aware you?re committing.
Human beings are socialized from birth within a cultural context that affirms a whole bunch of casual and subconscious biases within us. Everyone is subject to this effect. Your cultural socialization will affect virtually every aspect of your personality, and will inform your preferences, opinions, tastes, assumptions, everything. We are very much creatures of our environment.

Everyone occasionally does things that are sexist, or racist, or whatever*ist, because those behaviours are culturally learned and ingrained ? it?s only by actually delving into and analyzing the formation, use, and effect of those biases that we can even begin to understand how to overcome them.

Tenmar said:
Call me a bit ignorant but I honestly can't look at a game like Duke nukem and say that Gearbox Software is sexist because of some feminist theory that is based on the treatment of women. I can't look at Shigero Miyamoto and say he's a sexist cause of his depiction of women with Princess Peach as a damsel in distress and even when she gets to be the protagonist she uses the powers of emotion to save the Mario Bros gets as much complaint despite the narrative offering a reason that there was a magic artifact explaining why she has those powers.
Differentiate between ?being a sexist? and ?doing a sexist thing?. Are the guys at gearbox all sexists? No. Is Duke Nukem a REALLY sexist piece of trash that they were involved in the creation of? Hell yes it is. Is Shigeru Miyamoto a sexist? Not to my knowledge. Did he make use of a sexist trope in the formulation of Mario and Peach? Yeah, he did.

The thing is, these acts don?t make the people behind them bad people (not unless they were engaged in intentionally and with awareness of the implications, at least), just like any given mistake you might make in your life doesn?t make you a bad person. But it does mean that you made a mistake, and by being made aware of that mistake, maybe you?ll learn from it, and not want to repeat it.

And that?s what this is all about ? it?s not about silencing game developers, or telling them they can?t make their art. It is about informing their perspectives and the perspectives of their consumers though, with the hope that perhaps, in future, they?ll want to make better art.

Tenmar said:
It all just seems like looking for ghosts where none exist and undermines the integrity of the video game industry who I'm pretty certain doesn't actively hire people who are sexist or are actively misogynistic. I'd rather allow developers to freely create the content they want and then once published be critiqued on how to make the game better and not have to actively in the mid development process appease a player base that could cause financial harm to the company and their deadline. Cause the way I see it is that people are trying to relate all these tragedies(cause that is what they are) and somehow have that tragedy affect the industry that doesn't actually have any relation to it at all yet now have to walk on eggshells and limit what they want to create cause of a sensitive subject of what is actually a loud minority.
I pretty much covered this paragraph in my response to the one above.

Tenmar said:
Also, "attacks"? Sorry but I'd like to think of them as dissents.
?Attack? in the rhetorical sense. To target a weakness in an argument and exploit it to undermine the argument. Again, not intended as a slight, or to imply hositility.

Tenmar said:
Sorry sidetracked, it happens a bit with so many issues thrown in. But I should be more concerned about you Matt. I like you man, you are a good person but when it comes to these kinda of issues you really come off as negative or questions the other person's intelligence as if they shouldn't say anything at all and just let conversations go one sided. Really shuts down communication or becomes some contest where it stops being about the subject and becomes an ego contest where no one actually gets anywhere. Cause sometimes the best way to take some posts is to just take their opinion as opinion and see where they are coming from. Sometimes deciding if a person is right or wrong doesn't really matter but understanding what exactly they really care about when it comes to the issue.
Heh. I think you?re good people, dude. I think I might just write in a pretty blunt and direct way that gets read as hostility by a lot of people. It?s not. I promise. I?m really not angry, or trying to be a dick, or trying to shut down discussion, or anything like that.

-m

Edit: I'm out for the night. Have a good one.
 

marurder

New member
Jul 26, 2009
586
0
0
She's now in the news over the weekend, another news cycle with positive publicity for her. This is why gamers are seen as stupid and cannot be taken seriously (outside the gaming community), they don't react in a manner that others think is mature or serious.

Captcha: sick puppy
 

WanderingFool

New member
Apr 9, 2009
3,991
0
0
I always felt that Newgrounds was more or less a flash version of 4chan. But even they have standards.

Good Lord...
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
3,028
0
0
CosmicCommander said:
OK, this is dumb.

But it still doesn't exclude the fact the woman is a hack. Coincidentally, I was just watching this:

If she is a hack, at least she's a hack making tons of money off of the free publicity she's getting. I envy her that, but I don't think that making a video complaining about the plight of the modern white male gamer is likely to garner as much sympathy(or that opposite thing that Anita is getting). It might be worth a laugh though.
 

CD-R

New member
Mar 1, 2009
1,355
0
0
Treblaine said:
I wonder, has this Anita Sarkeesian ever been on the internet before... or does she know exactly what she is doing?

"I'll just have totally unmoderated comment section and see what happens"

No way. No. Freaking. Way... that she didn't know what she was doing. Anyone, who has ever run a website from the very earliest days of the internet has known that you have to moderate what people post. This has been around since BEFORE the internet this has been known. You will ALWAYS get trolls and it will ALWAYS fill up with them, their vile vitriol can only breed more and even if a minority opinion it WILL be heard the most. It's an utter fantasy that a absolutist open forum with ZERO personal consequences is the ideal representative of opinion.

It's like judging a society by what graffiti is scrawled on the the back of a toilet door and then holding that up as representative of society.

Bullshot.

You judge the video game by its PRODUCTS, by its TALENT, by the MAJORITY opinion of its users.

I think she feeds on the trolls as ready made straw-men. And it's an agreeable relationship for the trolls, as they love this pathetic fight.

Meanwhile, people who REALLY CARE about this medium are looking on with dismay as Ms Sarkeesian and the Trolls are conducting this ugly charade, this sick theatre of underhanded attacks at each other. And it is all a HUGE fucking distraction from the real issue. You don't publicly argue with trolls.
Not to mention she seemed to think spamming 4chan with the link to her kickstarter was a good idea.
 

Darren716

New member
Jul 7, 2011
784
0
0
I hope the dubass who made this realizes he's just helping her argument, then again that would be gravely overestimating his mental ability.
 

Darkmantle

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,031
0
0
of course.

at least one prick just HAD to know how to make a flash game eh?

I'm glad newgrounds didn't put up with that shit though.

Captcha: fire + brimstone
 

Twilight_guy

Sight, Sound, and Mind
Nov 24, 2008
7,131
0
0
I don't really care who the person is and what there argument is, this is not the proper response, ever. Taking sexism out of the picture, this is probably the worst thing you can do to contribute to an argument against someone. Poor taste, Bendilin, poor taste.