Florida Bill Passes House, Allows Genital Inspection for Schools

tstorm823

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The implementation however... I agree that this will probably be used to harass people and do more damage than good.
You think having a doctor's note that you're eligible to compete in sports is damaging?
 

Satinavian

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No, but the US is quite horrible as far as privacy rights go and somehow manages to be pretty bad when it comes to public records of its citizens as well. Add a bit of the typical bickering between levels of authority and the malice shown when using such rules in the past and it is basically guaranteed to blow up in several ways.

I mean, it is already starting at "who pays for that doctors evaluation" ?
 

tstorm823

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I mean, it is already starting at "who pays for that doctors evaluation" ?
The same people who already do. You can't do competitive sports without a physical. A sports physical is going to involve a hernia check. The doctor has felt your junk, and does not need to feel again to testify about your sex organs.
 

Schadrach

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Does this prevent the trans folks from participating in sports against the boys too? Cause it sounds like this is only about protecting the girls from unfair competition.
Anti-trans laws are always *ALWAYS* proposed in terms of protecting cis girls/women from "men in dresses" or their equivalent. No one is particularly worried about trans men or how boys/men might interact with trans people.

then you could just play with the boys too.
...unless it's a sport where there's only a girls team. In which case boys can play on the girls team under Title IX. Which always seems to piss off a noticeable subset of the folks who demand "equality" for some reason.

I am sure a lot of us would find all manner of sports more appealing if it featured a good side order of P&A and T&A.
...and thus all middle school and high school sports become massive pedophile stings, combined with some new face recognition tech that determines who is aroused based on facial imaging. It of course only works properly on white faces due to image contrast, but no one seems to care that the pedo detection system only detects white pedos.

You still have very little idea of what you're talking about, I see.
Still just making shit up as you go, huh?
Wait, are you saying that sex and gender are not separate, that you transition sex and not only gender by identifying as the other (or is hormones the mark for that, or what?), or something else here?
 
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Silvanus

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Wait, are you saying that sex and gender are not separate, that you transition sex and not only gender by identifying as the other (or is hormones the mark for that, or what?), or something else here?
Sex and gender are different things, that's a perfectly accurate bit.

But most trans people do not believe they have changed gender. Most believe they were always 1 gender, but that the biological sex did not match it (the disconnect is what's referred to as gender dysphoria).

When a trans person undergoes transitional processes (such as surgery or HRT, among others), they're changing their physical sexual characteristics to be in line with the gender they already feel they have. So it's the physical that transitions; the sex.

Of course, some trans people don't transition at all.
 

Schadrach

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Sex and gender are different things, that's a perfectly accurate bit.

But most trans people do not believe they have changed gender. Most believe they were always 1 gender, but that the biological sex did not match it (the disconnect is what's referred to as gender dysphoria).

When a trans person undergoes transitional processes (such as surgery or HRT, among others), they're changing their physical sexual characteristics to be in line with the gender they already feel they have. So it's the physical that transitions; the sex.

Of course, some trans people don't transition at all.
...in context of school sports, most trans kids that age aren't even undergoing HRT, are they? Isn't it typically just puberty blockers for that age range?
 

happyninja42

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...in context of school sports, most trans kids that age aren't even undergoing HRT, are they? Isn't it typically just puberty blockers for that age range?
Seeing as puberty is nothing but hormones, blocking them would, I think, count as HRT in some sense? It might be a semantic thing, but preventing certain hormones from being produced, even if your not replacing them with others of another kind, sounds like hormone therapy to me.
 
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Silvanus

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...in context of school sports, most trans kids that age aren't even undergoing HRT, are they? Isn't it typically just puberty blockers for that age range?
Typically, yes, from what I understand. But Dreiko's statement was broadly about trans people in general as far as I can tell.

Seeing as puberty is nothing but hormones, blocking them would, I think, count as HRT in some sense? It might be a semantic thing, but preventing certain hormones from being produced, even if your not replacing them with others of another kind, sounds like hormone therapy to me.
HRT stands for Hormone Replacement Therapy, and generally involves introducing hormones rather than just blocking. It'd be a subtype of hormone therapies.
 

Dreiko

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Still just making shit up as you go, huh?
Pretty sure it was you who said to me in another topic that biological sex and gender are not interchangeable. Well, female is sex not gender, and being trans is about your gender not your sex, so these male girls are not females. (the post I was quoting was referring to them as "transgender female" not "transgender girl/feminine/so on")


Anti-trans laws are always *ALWAYS* proposed in terms of protecting cis girls/women from "men in dresses" or their equivalent. No one is particularly worried about trans men or how boys/men might interact with trans people.
Wouldn't it not being against the trans boys be an indication of it actually being intended to protect girls and not just flatly be against trans people though? Cause why do they let the boys of the hook if they just hate them so viscerally. They could make the case that having a female with the boys in the changing room would be inappropriate or what have you if they were so inclined.


I think it's just that having a female in a boy's team isn't gonna be an unfair advantage so someone ACTUALLY caring about the sport is not gonna mind it.
 
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Buyetyen

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Pretty sure it was you who said to me in another topic that biological sex and gender are not interchangeable. Well, female is sex not gender, and being trans is about your gender not your sex, so these male girls are not females. (the post I was quoting was referring to them as "transgender female" not "transgender girl/feminine/so on")
Dude, just stop.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Nobody, literally nobody, is going to pretend to be trans in order to take advantage of high school sports.

Anybody arguing otherwise is absolutely fucking mental.
 

Terminal Blue

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So, this is an interesting example of how transphobic legislation works, because you can see the two interest groups very clearly.

On one hand, you have the people actually responsible for this. Let's call them the "assholes". The assholes know exactly what they're doing, they don't care about girl's sports or fairness, they want trans children being bullied or humiliated because they think this will dissuade children from being trans. To them, the potential abuse in having an adult able to force a child to expose their genitals is a part of the point, because the process has to be as humiliating and painful as possible for the child.

Then there's another much larger group, let's call them the "idiots". The idiots, as the name suggests, have very little understanding of the actual realities of gender variant children or transitioning or the biological reality of puberty, but can be tricked into supporting asshole legislation by completely vacuous appeals to common sense truths which the idiots think they know. So of course boys shouldn't be competing against girls. That's not fair. It's just biology! The idiots will typically pretend that they don't support the more outright nasty implications of asshole legislation, while also maintaining that something has to be done to stop this very serious problem and thus some legislation of this nature would always be required.

Anyway, let's talk about puberty.

Firstly, the most obvious thing. Knowing a child's assigned sex at birth will tell you absolutely nothing about their athletic performance. The differences in athletic ability between the sexes are a result of the relative impact of androgens during puberty. Androgens are steroids, they work by inciting the body to grow. This is why adult men are typically larger and stronger than adult women.

For children, however, this is not actually true. Around age 12 and 13, for example, girls in developed countries are, on average, larger and more muscular than boys and have less body fat. That's because girls tend to start puberty earlier than boys and generally grow very fast in early puberty, slowing down as they age. Boys, despite their faster overall growth, lag behind a bit and typically only reach their full adult size at around 18. And this is assuming an average, typical development. Puberty is hugely influenced by environmental factors, particularly nutrition. This is also without even touching on the use of hormone blockers.

So, it does not matter one tiny bit what sex a child was assigned at birth. If we're talking about the ability to fairly compete, we should be talking about their hormones. So maybe all the assigned female at birth stuff in the law is just a red herring and what's really important is hormone testing. Surely that is still reasonable even if the rest is nonsense.

So let's say a child has their testosterone levels checked and they come back with a number of nanograms per deciliter.

What now? What does that mean?

See, endocrinology is really complicated. What counts as a "normal" testosterone level for an individual is extremely specific to that individual, and based on a lot of stuff going on in the body. Add to this, adolescent girls typically have relatively high testosterone levels, while adolescent boys can have extremely low testosterone levels and still be healthy. It's entirely possible that a healthy 13 year old girl could have higher testosterone levels than a healthy 13 year old boy, simply because of natural variation and different stages of puberty. Does this mean it's fair for them to compete against each other? Probably not, but sport is generally not fair. Much as we might like to pretend that sport is all about practice and training and personal motivation, the reality is that athletic ability is strongly determined by what's going on in your body, and when it comes to adolescent children there can be incredible variation in terms of what is going on in their bodies. Two boys of the same age can have completely different bodies and different levels of ability simply because they hit puberty at different ages or developed at different speeds, which is normal, it's how humans work.

Competition between adolescents will never be fair, the best thing is just to get over it and maybe teach children to enjoy sport for its own sake regardless of whether they win or lose.

And again, if this were just a case of people not understanding the physiological differences between adults and children, that would be one thing, but I have to stress again that it's a deliberate, willful misunderstanding. This is not really a law about fairness in sports. It's a law made by assholes and endorsed by idiots.
 
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Satinavian

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For children, however, this is not actually true. Around age 12 and 13, for example, girls in developed countries are, on average, larger and more muscular than boys and have less body fat. That's because girls tend to start puberty earlier than boys and generally grow very fast in early puberty, slowing down as they age. Boys, despite their faster overall growth, lag behind a bit and typically only reach their full adult size at around 18.
That is known. That is also why you typically do sex segregation only from 14-15 onward or start even later. There is no reason to do so until boys and girls on average give significantly different result. Unless you want to seperate the sexes for other reasons because your culture is overly prudish.

Competition between adolescents will never be fair, the best thing is just to get over it and maybe teach children to enjoy sport for its own sake regardless of whether they win or lose.
There are good reasons to have sex segregation for competitions and those reasons don't go away only because trans-children make it more complicated.
If you really belived that fairness and win chances in sports just don't actually matter, you wouldn't need girl teams at all. You also wouldn't need competitions.

But no, you have girl teams and girl competitions precisely because you don't want girls to lose any interest in the sport because they now they could never compete with the boys anyway. You do that to make "the best of the girls" to be something that seems achievable through hard work and something to aspire to. You don't want people with male bodies in those competition because that goes completely against the reason those exist. And you don't want people with bodies that are somewhere inbetween due to hormonal therapy either because if they win, everyone will just assume that the hormonal therapy didn't really work and they won because of an unfair sex advantage.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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But no, you have girl teams and girl competitions precisely because you don't want girls to lose any interest in the sport because they now they could never compete with the boys anyway. You do that to make "the best of the girls" to be something that seems achievable through hard work and something to aspire to. You don't want people with male bodies in those competition because that goes completely against the reason those exist. And you don't want people with bodies that are somewhere inbetween due to hormonal therapy either because if they win, everyone will just assume that the hormonal therapy didn't really work and they won because of an unfair sex advantage.
So, basically, trans people don't get to exist publicly. Because the 1 trans girl in the school interested in athletics maybe winning a thing once in awhile is the death of girls high school sports, even if they've been on blockers the whole time and haven't gone trough puberty.

Fucking mental.

When did we stop making fun of people who take high school sports too seriously? Did I not get the memo? This stupid ass argument gets brought up every now and again by some sad sacks that hated the fact that the kids on the reservation had a solid 6 inches on us white dudes too. We still fucking played, who gives a shit about your high school w/l record?

The only people who give a shit about how well you did sports wise in high school outside of recruiters are sad sack losers. And the recruiters don't give a shit if you competed against trans people, though they might dock you for sportsmanship if you're a pissant about it.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Like, shit. These assholes make it sound like there's a full volleyball team of freshly out, never seen an artificial hormone in their life trans girls ready to pounce on every high school in America.

What's actually going to happen is girls like my 6'6"-at-16 cousin getting harassed by "concerned feminists" for not being girly enough with coaches and parents trying to spy on her in the shower.
 
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Satinavian

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When did we stop making fun of people who take high school sports too seriously? Did I not get the memo? This stupid ass argument gets brought up every now and again by some sad sacks that hated the fact that the kids on the reservation had a solid 6 inches on us white dudes too. We still fucking played, who gives a shit about your high school w/l record?
But a lot of people do take it seriously.
And that is not really a bad thing because all this attention does help motivate children to actually do sports.

As for how relevant that later is, does not have the US a lot of sports based college stipendium stuff going on ? Do not most athletic careers start during puperty ? I mean, when I was young, we had regular tests for everyone and any promising children got taken from normal schools to special internats for special training under supervision from sport scientists from the age of 9 to produce athletes showing the superiority of communism.
 

Agema

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When did we stop making fun of people who take high school sports too seriously?
You might have made fun of them, but I get the horrible feeling that competitive parents who overvalue competitive school sports have traditionally been the ones who also have the social and political clout.

But a lot of people do take it seriously.
And that is not really a bad thing because all this attention does help motivate children to actually do sports.
Maybe. Often, it also breeds horrible people.

For instance, there are plenty of studies of cheating in universities. Students who play competitive sports are significantly more likely to cheat in their assessments.
 
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tstorm823

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To them, the potential abuse in having an adult able to force a child to expose their genitals is a part of the point.
Not what the bill says. Literally just a doctor's not. A note that doesn't even have to be based on genitals at all.

The Bill Nobody Read said:
55 (c) A dispute regarding a student's sex shall be resolved by the student's school or institution by requesting that the student provide a health examination and consent form or other statement signed by the student's personal health care provider which must verify the student's biological sex. The health care provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a routine sports physical examination by relying only on one or more of the following:
1. The student's reproductive anatomy;
2. The student's genetic makeup; or
3. The student's normal endogenously produced testosterone levels.
So, basically, trans people don't get to exist publicly.
There are recreational sports at all ages that are entirely co-ed. The only controversy is specifically women's competitive sports, a designation that exists specifically to allow athletically talented women to not be overshadowed by often less-talented men who were born with a physical advantage. Letting people with that in-born advantage, regardless of gender, participate in specifically competitive women's and girls' sports defeats the purpose.
 
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