Former Dev: WoW Has Killed the MMO Genre

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Ferisar said:
Indeed, to each their own, I was simply expressing my views on the matter, just as you have yours. I won't deny that a big part of the appeal to raiding in WoW WAS the social aspect more than the material aspect. Just the same, however, that's still countless hours of effort and work to washed down the drain when your gear is rendered obsolete by a new expansion. As I said, the negating of those hours of effort by removing the value of the reward for that effort was just one of the reasons I ended up leaving WoW.

The other part of it was guild drama that I didn't want to deal with anymore. :p

I nostalgia (that's right VERBS ************)
Actually "nostalgia" is a noun. The verb form is either "nostalgize" or "wax nostalgic". The only reason I point this out is because you made such a big deal of it yourself. :p
 

barbzilla

He who speaks words from mouth!
Dec 6, 2010
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Makabriel said:
Phrozenflame500 said:
I would say he's right. All MMOs now are mostly WoW clones and it's disappointing nobody trys anything too different from the basic formula as there are so many interesting possibilities for an MMO platform.

Interesting video, but it's apples to oranges. There's a reason he could only find Eve as an example of a sandbox MMO. It's because it doesn't work in the same genre. Closest thing you could come to it would be something like Minecraft. I played WoW because I liked the depth. I actually played and paid attention to the quests and the environment around me. I tried playing Eve and was bored out of my mind. There's no journey in Eve. What's weird is that if there was ever a game that defined grinding, that would be it..

It does work, or it did until Sony decided to kill it. SWG pre-CU was amazing, and it was a true sandbox game. There was nothing forcing you into any path, and honestly I leveled one character up doing nothing buy killing random mobs because I felt like it. I had another character who was afraid to leave his homeworld of Tatooine, so instead he started his own town and became a mayor (having leveled up as a bureaucrat). Yet for those who wanted a story, it was there was well. There were plenty of quest lines to follow, there was the whole galactic civil war happening, and they had it open to do with as you pleased.

As for what the Firefall guy said, I think he's just a bit miffed that his game is so bland. It was an interesting concept, but from what I played of it, the entire game is just a resource grab. It is almost as though you are role playing the part of an scv in starcraft. Don't get me wrong, there is content in the game, but for the most part you will spend most of your time harvesting resources (which is pretty fun the first hundred or so times you do it).
 

Coreless

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Aug 19, 2011
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I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
 

klaynexas3

My shoes hurt
Dec 30, 2009
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This is why I play on a Burning Crusade private server. Leveling is slow and tedious at that expansion, but it actually makes it worth playing those early levels, unlike new WoW where you blow through it all, making the Leveling experience dull in of itself. There's nothing wrong with accessibility, there is something wrong, however, with hand holding up until max level, and then some. There's no challenge or worth to anything you do in WoW anymore. I'm glad a damn developer finally gets this, and not just a playerbase.
 

Abomination

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Dec 17, 2012
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Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!

Blaming the consumer for liking something and he producer for providing it is the same as blaming the tide for rising and falling.

But oh no, let's take shots at the guy on top and those sell-out unwashed masses for purchasing that obvious tripe. Congratulations, you have the sour-grapes gaming hipster.

Captcha: rocket science
No, it's market forces - economics.
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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Abomination said:
Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!
Y'know, if you put it that way, drug dealers don't sound so bad all of a sudden...

Not saying WoW is a drug (or at least not more than anything enjoyable tends to be), but just because people want it doesn't mean it's the right thing in the long term. And through creating high expectations both on the player and on the investor side, WoW has effectively killed the genre. But for me it's just expression part of the current AAA moloch.
 

MooShoo

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Jun 11, 2013
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I feel this video from mikepreachwow sums it up rather well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
 

Agente L

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Apr 4, 2010
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Fair point. But only work for past expansions, of after xp nerfs. Getting to level 90 in pandaria would take a week or two, if you didn't power leveled through it.

But WoW is also the most played MMO of all history, and one of the most profitable franchises of all entertainment, so I guess they don't really care.
 

Diddy_Mao

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Jan 14, 2009
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Did they ramp up the leveling process from 1 to 90?

Yes they did.

Is this a bad thing? I don't really think so. I had a friend join the game for the first time a few months ago. That's 5 expansions worth of content to get though and everyone he knew was already at the max level. Meaning that he had to "power level" to get himself to a point where he could play with us...which was pretty much the whole reason he started playing.

Since then, he's also rolled an alternate character with whom he's playing through the game story and enjoying at his own pace. The idea that the path from X to Y is too fast only really counts if your audience can't take advantage of the slower pace as well...which of course they can.

Now I will admit that their sloppy handling of the in game time line makes that experience a little less enjoyable but when it's all said and done that's not a deal breaker.

As for not wanting to play another WoW Clone...well yeah I'll agree with that. I already play WoW I'm not going to pump another $15.00 a month into another MMO that's just the same experience (Star Wars: The Old Republic...you know what you did.) That's why I still play The Secret World and why I'm really looking forward to Wildstar.
 

Sectan

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Aug 7, 2011
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WWmelb said:
And there were a number of chains like this, that were amazing. Especially things like the class specific epic quests... Benediction, the hunter chain, doomguard, paladin mount... all amazingly awesome (and fucking hard) quests...
I remember getting my paladin mount in Burning Crusade. Even though it was easier than in vanilla, there was this sense of adventure to it. Running across the world (Literally because you didn't get a mount until level 40) gathering all of these materials and killing bosses. Finally entering scholomance and fighting for your life before riding off into the sunset on a charger with your 4 other friends. THAT is great MMO gameplay. And it's been reduced to *Run to Trainer, pay 40 gold, hit I and wait for you queue to pop for a dungeon*
 

Sansha

There's a principle in business
Nov 16, 2008
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Every time I hear the argument that people don't want to play another WoW clone, but developers don't want to deviate from its winning formula... I say look at EVE Online.

Then I say 'Try harder. CCP did.'
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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*sings* I 100% agree and I've been saying it for ages

WoW hasn't killed the genre really. It's just a fucking annoying bad habit these days that all the entertainment is solely based around what was popular before and so becomes a soulless copy with no lasting appeal. That's the real problem plaguing all the industry's these days. I can't even go to the fucking movies anymore without doing some research to make sure the writing isn't aimed at giggling children.

Also, I would like to see an MMO that doesn't allow you to trade equipment to another character. Just one, so every character goes through a challenging time.
 

miketehmage

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Jul 22, 2009
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He has a point. I remember back in vanilla I'd spend a week or so running a dungeon for a piece of loot, while levelling up. And back then dungeon groups actually had to talk to each other and classes weren't homogenised for convenience of finding a raid group.

The dungeon finder, class homogenisation, and easier levelling really did tear the soul out of the game. I only play WoW for the arenas now. Those are still great fun at least.
 

skywolfblue

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Jul 17, 2011
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I agree with the Firefall dev to some extent.

Coreless said:
I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
I wouldn't say I'd blame the customers too much, it's natural to want things to be more convenient. It just wasn't possible for most people to see what the path to convenience would cost them in the end.

Wanting to level alts faster is a nice wish, but after time it's turned leveling into a race. All those 30% decreases in leveling XP every expansion make it harder and harder to actually stay around long enough to savor a zone before rapidly outleveling it.

Wanting to find groups easier has led to LFG, which was nice at first, but after time has etched away at the community spirit of the game.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
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I care more for the journey, but I always thought the reason WoW went to focusing on Endgame rather than the journey was a combination of the massive playerbase reaching the top and the fact that games in general have become much easier.

If somebody were to play a game on the PC or console in 2010 only to go onto WoW Vanilla (I know it ended in 2007), going from taking on entire armies to getting mauled to death by two wolves would be a little depressing for a new player.

But hey at least he's not saying "My MMO will kill WoW".
 

EstrogenicMuscle

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Sep 7, 2012
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I don't think that the fix is making the endgame harder to reach.

But rather, making the level itself less important. Levels are just one tool in the RPG shed. A good one, but abused in MMORPGs. Making the journey more important can be made better by also making the journey more entertaining.

And by not only making level less important, but in many ways, gear. In fact in many ways I don't think that gear should be tied to level. I think that any level should be able to use any gear. If anything should be done to prevent higher level gear form being used at lower levels, it should be that higher level characters get exponential stat bonuses on gear. Locking gear to a level is completely illogical.

It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, but not from a lore standpoint. And there are better ways of preventing overpower caps. Like, again, higher level characters using the same gear more effectively and getting level bonuses. No other RPG genre has level caps on what level can wear what gear.

Back on the subject of levels, I think that not only do levels need to become less important. But I think that a clear and defined "endgame" needs to disappear entirely. A lot of people decry the "sphere grid" system in Final Fantasy games. But MMORPGs are one of the few genres of game that I think something like a sphere grid would be a huge benefit.

A true endgame really would be impossible to reach, if, instead of having a endgame levelcap of something like 50 or 75, have thousands of little nodes to fill that were more important than your level. And make not so clearly defined transitions in the game. When you're at a certain point in the game, you know it. And I feel like that's a flaw, takes away mystery and desire to explore and discover.
 

LetalisK

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May 5, 2010
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Dude clearly hasn't paid attention to WoW in the last couple years. They've pushed their development capabilities throughout the expansions and they spend a ridiculous amount of time and resources on the questing experience. All while continuing to push the end game. TOR already tried emphasizing the leveling experience and it learned the hard lesson that you better have a decent end game to back it up or you're fucked.
 

Bestival

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May 5, 2012
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I'm guessing this guy didn't play Guild Wars 2. They sort of did the opposite. Great fun leveling and exploring as you go, and then no real end game to speak of. As much as I sometimes hated WoW making me run the same dungeons over and over for that 0.1% more crit rating ring, at least that gave you some sort of sad sad goal to play for.
GW2 stats are all the same, and I already have the set looks I like best.

Personally I liked WoW's setup better, though I am quite bored of it now. It did keep me coming back for many years though, as leveling never did.