Free with Ads or Paid

Siyano

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To me this concept on a individual level make no sense in term of value either way.
Let say you put a 5$ per 1000 views of a 30 seconds ad, that you can have 2 minutes of ads per hour (depending of the platform) its boil down to a cost of 0.02$/h. So, I dont get it, you want me to watch ads for 2 minutes so I "pay" you those 2 pennies? Wut?
And then you have some other saying, well then you should pay the 10$/m to not get ads or such. But again I dont see how does that makes sense, because if I watch say 100 different youtubers, you are getting 0.10$ per month.
So on one side you ask me to waste 2 minutes per hours to pay you pennies or pay a 10$/m fee so I pay you pennies?
And then I hear the "Just give 1$ per month to each." Or something similar. Well im sorry im watching up to 200 different things per month, im not paying 200$/m to watch stuff
 

Siyano

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And I had heated discussion with people yelling basically at me "oh all you want is free stuff" and "you dont want to pay".
Well, considering that its not ME that pay it, yes, because you are basically asking me to give you less than 1$ per month, so, what do you want from me because either I watch ad or not you are not getting more than that, why is it my fault?
 

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...Could you rephrase the question? Your post reads like some form of rambling outrage, and we lack the context to make sense of it as written.
 

Siyano

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I guess the question is "Why as a single person should I watch ads or pay money for something that in the end have any kind of substantial cost to me or return to you" Because like I said, if you watch ads its give about 0.02$/h or paying a subscription doesnt give any much more. So why should I be pestered with ads or payment, because you are asking pennies from me and its just feel stingy or cheap.
 

davidmc1158

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Advertising doesn't ask anything from you directly, except perhaps for time. However, the idea behind advertising is a numbers game: Show the ads to a large enough group of people and you will get a proportion of that audience to buy your product. Advertising is thus an investment with expectation of return on that investment.

In return for the opportunity to put their advertisements in front of an audience, the company/group/business that produces the ads pays money to the host that will carry those ads, whether it be a twitch streamer, television network, etc. Those funds are used by the host to fund and produce their content. Take away the advertisements, and the host must turn to alternate sources of revenue like patreon, subscription fees, etc.

This is why companies, both advertiseers and those that host the ads are against things like AdBlock. If too many people block the ads, then those that make the ads won't bother using blockable ads since they are a waste of money that won't get a return on that investment and the host loses out on the revenue those ads generate for them.

Effects can vary, depending on the host in question, and many online hosts have turned away from ads in order to either sell direct merchandise themselves (and thus place their own ads in their own content), have subscription systems or use direct crowd-funding like patreon.

For us, as the audience, ads can be annoying but often (not always, but far more often than most people seem to think), those ads are the money source that funds the content we wish to consume. In many cases, no ads=no content. Just because its on the internet doesn't mean it should be free.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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I guess the question is "Why as a single person should I watch ads or pay money for something that in the end have any kind of substantial cost to me or return to you" Because like I said, if you watch ads its give about 0.02$/h or paying a subscription doesnt give any much more. So why should I be pestered with ads or payment, because you are asking pennies from me and its just feel stingy or cheap.
If I offered you a billion dollars in pennies, would you turn it down? Pennies add up.
 

Drathnoxis

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If I offered you a billion dollars in pennies, would you turn it down? Pennies add up.
Are they rolled or unrolled?

A billion dollars in pennies would weigh 250 million kg and take up a volume of 42072 cubic meters. You would need hundreds of employees working full time for months or more to dispose of that many pennies. A quick google search didn't turn up a number for pennies rolled/hr. It would probably still be worth it, though.
 
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Siyano

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If I offered you a billion dollars in pennies, would you turn it down? Pennies add up.
dont make sense and I dont see your point, a billions is still a billions, doesnt matter if it in pennies
pennies add up and only matter for a mass of people, but as an individual its just doesnt make sense
feel pretty cheap to ask a single person to give 1 penny
that would be like "give me a penny per hour" and that you dont have a choice, sure at the end its about 7$ per month but its feel really nagging and bothersome. Because its not what I give personally and that why I dont see the point, I dont want to pay 10$ per month just so the big guys behind can then pay everyone a certain amount depending.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Sound like a matter of respect. As in "Do I respect the source of this particular entertainment/news/content enough to willingly give something back in return even if it's just not activating the adblock defenses?" With massive corporate entities, I can understand giving their likely tax-dodging arses the cold digital shoulder. But small creators still gotta cover their costs somehow.
 
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Are they rolled or unrolled?

A billion dollars in pennies would weigh 250 million kg and take up a volume of 42072 cubic meters. You would need hundreds of employees working full time for months or more to dispose of that many pennies. A quick google search didn't turn up a number for pennies rolled/hr. It would probably still be worth it, though.
Insert *I don't know what I expected* here
 

Siyano

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Advertising doesn't ask anything from you directly, except perhaps for time. However, the idea behind advertising is a numbers game: Show the ads to a large enough group of people and you will get a proportion of that audience to buy your product. Advertising is thus an investment with expectation of return on that investment.

In return for the opportunity to put their advertisements in front of an audience, the company/group/business that produces the ads pays money to the host that will carry those ads, whether it be a twitch streamer, television network, etc. Those funds are used by the host to fund and produce their content. Take away the advertisements, and the host must turn to alternate sources of revenue like patreon, subscription fees, etc.

This is why companies, both advertiseers and those that host the ads are against things like AdBlock. If too many people block the ads, then those that make the ads won't bother using blockable ads since they are a waste of money that won't get a return on that investment and the host loses out on the revenue those ads generate for them.

Effects can vary, depending on the host in question, and many online hosts have turned away from ads in order to either sell direct merchandise themselves (and thus place their own ads in their own content), have subscription systems or use direct crowd-funding like patreon.

For us, as the audience, ads can be annoying but often (not always, but far more often than most people seem to think), those ads are the money source that funds the content we wish to consume. In many cases, no ads=no content. Just because its on the internet doesn't mean it should be free.
Ads are only money sources because reasons. I can sound "boomer" but I dont consider ads a good thing, if you put ads on your YouTube or twitch or whatnot you dont care about your audience and egoist that you want to make money to the detriment of wasting people time on such "immoral" practice, you are asking to waste near year of time just so you can have an extra 1000$.
More than 99% you cant trust an ads of selling an object or an apps because its always grossly bent truth, misinformation, unsourced and tested claims, paid actors of testimonials or gain during the use of said product.
So why should I even care a little about ads? Just because they give money is not enough of a reason.
They are most of the time blantly ridiculous, scammy if not outright immoral and near illegal. And we accept that? I just dont get it.
I see and bombarded by ads and name of company all the time, just seeing one's name is not going to make buy from you, in the opposite, im going to look for competitors in the same branch or just ignore because its not something i care
 

davidmc1158

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Ads are only money sources because reasons. I can sound "boomer" but I dont consider ads a good thing, if you put ads on your YouTube or twitch or whatnot you dont care about your audience and egoist that you want to make money to the detriment of wasting people time on such "immoral" practice, you are asking to waste near year of time just so you can have an extra 1000$.
More than 99% you cant trust an ads of selling an object or an apps because its always grossly bent truth, misinformation, unsourced and tested claims, paid actors of testimonials or gain during the use of said product.
So why should I even care a little about ads? Just because they give money is not enough of a reason.
They are most of the time blantly ridiculous, scammy if not outright immoral and near illegal. And we accept that? I just dont get it.
I see and bombarded by ads and name of company all the time, just seeing one's name is not going to make buy from you, in the opposite, im going to look for competitors in the same branch or just ignore because its not something i care
I actually want to thank you for this response to my post because you really have revealed the source of the problem here. You have taken your own personal preferences, annoyances and dislikes and projected them as the standard reaction across the board. As I posted earlier, advertising is a numbers game. You present your ad to a large group of people and, while some of them (such as yourself) can be turned off by those ads, you get enough people to consider buying your product/service to make the investment worthwhile.

Ads are "blantly ridiculous, scammy if not outright immoral and near illegal" as you put it, because it works. If it didn't work with a large enough portion of the population, then advertisers wouldn't invest the money in it.

You are only a singular individual. As am I. As is any single, isolated person on this forum. Looking at advertising from the perspective of a single person is to miss the forest for the trees. At the risk of being repetitious, advertising is a numbers game.

Are ads a good thing? I cannot say with any certainty. What I can say is that they are in integral part of the business model that currently controls where and how monetary resources get funneled to content creators. To use a strange metaphor, it's kind of like asking someone suffering from allergies is the fact that plants can produce pollen is a good or bad thing. They, as an individual, may hate or inconvenienced/harmed by the situation but that is just the way the world currently works. And, as much as they might prefer otherwise that is just the way things are going to remain until someone fundamentally redesigns the world's ecosystems.

If it makes you feel any better, consider that a large enough number of people have shown an unwillingness to listen/watch internet ads enough to make services like Adblock a thing. That reality has forced many content creators to turn to crowdfunding (patreon, etc.) to obtain the resources they need to make their content. But it also means that a large number of them have found it necessary to use sponsored content, and thus ads placed directly within their content as well as the question of how honest that content can be when it is so directly beholden to a sponsor.

TLDR version: You as an individual may hate advertising, but you are only a single plot point on the bell curve advertisers look at when it comes to selling their products. Unless and until a new paradigm is designed to obtain resources for content creators, ads remain a necessary evil in the system. If you want to complain about how you find ads to be dishonest, scammy, or borderline illegal, that is your prerogative. Hell, I can name any number of ads that I would prefer to see disappear because of their annoyance factor alone. But, if you wanted an explanation of why those advertisements exist in the first place, I have attempted to explain it as best I can.

Side Note: As for the "asking you to pay pennies" concept you mentioned, that is also a numbers game. Yes, it is only a couple of cents per viewer, but remember that is modelled on the "per viewer" part of the equation. Looking at it solely from your perspective as an individual, it makes little sense. But when you take a step back and look at it from the perspective of someone attempting to reach out to thousands (if not millions) of viewers, that very low rate quickly adds up to sizable amounts.

Anyways, enough of the inner adjunct instructor in me for now. I just hope the explanation I have provided makes some sense to you. Please note that I am not asking you to like what is going on with ads, merely that I am trying to make the answer as to why they exist, intelligible.
 

Siyano

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Ads are "blantly ridiculous, scammy if not outright immoral and near illegal" as you put it, because it works. If it didn't work with a large enough portion of the population, then advertisers wouldn't invest the money in it.
so even, just because its works its okay? how does that makes sense?
its not just because I dont like them, its because they are what I said "scammy", when I see an ad for say a VPN claiming "its going to protect you from X, Y and Z" and most of them doesnt do any of that, how is that even legal to claim thing that are false, and there a lot of ads like this, always bending the truth, inflating number, unscientific claims, etc...

As for the "asking you to pay pennies" concept you mentioned, that is also a numbers game. Yes, it is only a couple of cents per viewer, but remember that is modelled on the "per viewer" part of the equation. Looking at it solely from your perspective as an individual, it makes little sense. But when you take a step back and look at it from the perspective of someone attempting to reach out to thousands (if not millions) of viewers, that very low rate quickly adds up to sizable amounts.
I understand it a number game but that exactly why I dont find them "moral", because you need to waste hours (its incredible the time wasted for that) of people just so you can fish the most "gullible" people out of the crowd, its never really and truly show information or such for a product, its just to sell that object for anything, even if I have to "claim" lies so my product seem more interesting that any other.
Like there were a site advertising for a seller that were selling cream (and there a USB Stick) for anti 5G and such, he never was arrested or anything, while selling ridiculous pointless products...
I often see the ad in mobile game for the "win 200$ playing bingo" with video of people with "testimonial" saying "Wow, I have won 2500$ this month" when its obviously false...
whatever...
its just stupid and has no limit or laws preventing anything of the shenanigan, they can do whatever.
 

davidmc1158

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so even, just because its works its okay? how does that makes sense?
its not just because I dont like them, its because they are what I said "scammy", when I see an ad for say a VPN claiming "its going to protect you from X, Y and Z" and most of them doesnt do any of that, how is that even legal to claim thing that are false, and there a lot of ads like this, always bending the truth, inflating number, unscientific claims, etc...


I understand it a number game but that exactly why I dont find them "moral", because you need to waste hours (its incredible the time wasted for that) of people just so you can fish the most "gullible" people out of the crowd, its never really and truly show information or such for a product, its just to sell that object for anything, even if I have to "claim" lies so my product seem more interesting that any other.
Like there were a site advertising for a seller that were selling cream (and there a USB Stick) for anti 5G and such, he never was arrested or anything, while selling ridiculous pointless products...
I often see the ad in mobile game for the "win 200$ playing bingo" with video of people with "testimonial" saying "Wow, I have won 2500$ this month" when its obviously false...
whatever...
its just stupid and has no limit or laws preventing anything of the shenanigan, they can do whatever.
Firstly, at no point did I claim that ads were inherently good or OK. Indeed, I specifically stated that I wasn't asking you to like them, merely that I was attempting to explain how they simply are a part of the economic landscape, much like my attempt to use the pollen/people with allergies metaphor.

Secondly, there are avenues for dealing with misleading ads within the legal system. Laws are in place against "misleading advertising", but they require people to submit complaints to the proper legal offices. In my case, that would be my state's Attorney General, the federal Attorney General's office, or to seek advice on how to proceed from an affiliate organization such as the Better Business Bureau.

Third, I feel obligated to point out that what most people consider a "pointless" product can vary wildly from person to person. I know individuals who believe that razor blades are pointless since growing hair is a natural process and shaving is, in their opinion, stupid. Whether or not a food product is necessary is also heavily subjective. *Insert pineapple on pizza debate here*

And finally, the fact that such advertising methods work says more, to myself at least, about human nature than anything else. Until such time as you can change human psychology to the point that such system don't work anymore . . . . well, the world just is as it is. You could, I suppose, back political movements that push for greater consumer protections and/or stricter standards in the "truth in advertising" laws. But, I'm afraid neither of us has apparently been dispensed with phenomenal deity-like powers to alter the current reality otherwise.

As a final note, I would simply like to point out that many content creators use a great deal of their time to, well, create their content. As such, it quite literally is their full-time job. In order to pay the bills, the money has to come from somewhere. In the modern internet age, there are quite a few options available, but most of them still require advertising of one sort or another. In my own case, I guess that means if I still want to eat that delicious fruit, I'm going to have to endure the pollen counts every spring and summer because I don't know of any system where I can have the former without the latter as well. (What? You didn't actually think I wasn't going to overdo one of my own ridiculous metaphors, did you?)
 

Siyano

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I understand, Im in no way undermining any creators works, its just feel weird that you would like to say hey good work but its just seem impossible on the personal and single level, because, well, like I said, no matter what, what I watch for ads or even pay for a platform, I dont feel like im giving anything to the person directly, and sadly, since there is so much that are good there no way that I can pay for all of them, so Im in this position.
I just dont want to be treated just like another drop of water in a bucket and having to "waste" a lot of my time just so I can be giving a few penny per hour, my time is not a 0.02$/h value sorry
but I guess that a "1st world" problem, where we can all access to nearly everyone and everyone can propose their creation.

Third, I feel obligated to point out that what most people consider a "pointless" product can vary wildly from person to person. I know individuals who believe that razor blades are pointless since growing hair is a natural process and shaving is, in their opinion, stupid. Whether or not a food product is necessary is also heavily subjective
well I think there a difference between something like a razor and a 5G cream, razor actually does something, even if you can consider that hair is "natural" I can on my own decide that I dont like body hair at certain place and buy a razor to shave that part, a 5g cream does exactly NOTHING, its not going to protect you against 5G, it is utterly an object that exactly does nothing (other than maybe say hydrate your skin)
 

davidmc1158

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I understand, Im in no way undermining any creators works, its just feel weird that you would like to say hey good work but its just seem impossible on the personal and single level, because, well, like I said, no matter what, what I watch for ads or even pay for a platform, I dont feel like im giving anything to the person directly, and sadly, since there is so much that are good there no way that I can pay for all of them, so Im in this position.
It's a completely understandable position to be in. In fact, I would argue that is one of the reasons Patreon is such a popular means of support for a lot of creators. The contributor is giving directly to the content creator they want to support, and that is a very good feeling.

Besides, if you really want to see a bad reaction to advertising, then you should see the look on my face whenever I try to watch commercial television. By the fourth ad, I tend to slip into profanity being yelled at the television. I mean, just how many DAMN COMMERCIALS DO THEY THINK I WANT TO PUT UP WITH WHEN. . . . er, *ahem*, I mean I can get pretty annoyed with the whole situation as well.

All I can really suggest is find whatever you enjoy that helps bring down the blood pressure and I wish you well.
 

Drathnoxis

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Are they rolled or unrolled?

A billion dollars in pennies would weigh 250 million kg and take up a volume of 42072 cubic meters. You would need hundreds of employees working full time for months or more to dispose of that many pennies. A quick google search didn't turn up a number for pennies rolled/hr. It would probably still be worth it, though.
Had some more time today and I'm still thinking about this. A quick search finds a coin roller machine that claims 300 coins/minute. You would need 633 of these running 24/7 for a year to roll all the pennies. Round to 800 for breakages is $176 000.

To account for personnel let's round up to a thousand to include all the people moving the coins to and from the rollers, resupplying rolls, accounting. Then let's multiply by 4 to get four shifts to make it around the clock. So 4000 people working for a year. Minimum wage where I live is $15/hr with a full working week of 40hr/week that's 2080hr/year so 4000x2080x15=$124 800 000. This isn't counting benefits or WCB coverage or additional skilled staff for management and other tasks or anything so we could probably round up to $200 million to be safe

I'm changing cubic meters to cubic feet so 1485758 cubic feet. Let's say we can stack the coins 15 feet high so we need 99 050 square feet for storage, might as well round up to 100 000 to account for work space. In a city near me I found a 7000 square foot warehouse for rent at $18.50/square foot/year. So at that rate it will cost around $1 850 000 for the space.

Considering I'm probably missing a bunch of other materials and costs (shipping, etc.) I want to at least round up to $250 million for a safe estimate of the cost to roll 100 billion pennies. Then if the pennies are taxable it would take another %30 so you are looking at a cost of $550 million dollars leaving you a little under half a billion left.

Personally, I would see if I could just sell somebody the rights to the penny pile for 50 million or something if possible and wash my hands of the whole affair. There would be far too much involved in rolling that many pennies.
 
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