Funny events in anti-woke world

TheMysteriousGX

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That being said, I still think there needs to be some athletic adjustments for trans-athletes in professional competition. Because we are seeing contests getting skewed heavily in regards to competing in a professional matter. Laurell has shattered several women's records for power lifting. Veronica Ivy has shattered records in women's cycling. I forget the name of the high school trans-girl who beat the shit out of her classmates in wrestling, actually it might have been college i forget exactly.
Laurel Hubbard does not have a record for women's weightlifting and pre injury was ranked 7th in her division
Veronica Ivy's "smashed world record" is slower than women ten years older than her
38DB1460-C039-4EB8-AC81-49A3500A927E.jpeg
And the high school wrestler you are thinking of is Mack Beggs, a trans man who was forced to wrestle in the women's bracket by transphobic Texas school officials and who currently is part of the men's wrestling team at Life University.
Is there anything else you'd like to be blatantly, factually wrong about?

Or yeah, like a conspiracy theorist would think.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Reread Veronica's post again, Especially that last line. "I'll be back next year to break it AGAIN!" Again! As in a second time.

In an October 2019 time trial, Ivy broke the record for the 200-meter sprint for females aged 34–39

As for Mack Beggs, while the school did put them in the female bracket, they did also compete against the boys and won third place in the state championships in 2018. Mack is also a strange case because he is literally the proof in how testosterone changes the body to be more powerful than the natural female body. Mack obliterated the girls he was forced to wrestle against.

In my opinion Mack shows that male hormones provide a huge physical advantage. And frankly just because you get off the testosterone later in life (like many of these trans female athletes) doesn't negate the majority of life growth of the body with full male hormone development.


Again you call me a conspiracy theorist because you refuse to acknowledge the logic behind my compromised point. I never said anything about cutting transpeople from sports competition. I very clearly said that they need to evaluate the capabilities of the trans athletes and develop compromised regulations in order to allow them to compete. Whether that means they compete in a higher weight bracket than they would otherwise fit into, or have a slight handicap applied to their positions, whatever rules need to be applied in order to create a fair competitive environment for everyone.

Bottom line is that testosterone development provide enhanced physical ability over natural women who lack the higher level of it. Whether that testosterone is artificial (like in Mack's case) or not.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Reread Veronica's post again, Especially that last line. "I'll be back next year to break it AGAIN!" Again! As in a second time.

In an October 2019 time trial, Ivy broke the record for the 200-meter sprint for females aged 34–39
...wait, are you taking an athlete's boast as proof or do you think she has a time machine?
And my picture clearly shows that she has the record...for her age bracket. And it shows the record for women older than her being faster than her.
As for Mack Beggs, while the school did put them in the female bracket, they did also compete against the boys and won third place in the state championships in 2018. Mack is also a strange case because he is literally the proof in how testosterone changes the body to be more powerful than the natural female body. Mack obliterated the girls he was forced to wrestle against.

In my opinion Mack shows that male hormones provide a huge physical advantage. And frankly just because you get off the testosterone later in life (like many of these trans female athletes) doesn't negate the majority of life growth of the body with full male hormone development.
Proves nothing about trans women, who are suppressing their testosterone production to around the levels of cis women (said restrictions currently being used to hurt some cis African women, in fact, it a Totally Not Racist way)
Again you call me a conspiracy theorist because you refuse to acknowledge the logic behind my compromised point. I never said anything about cutting transpeople from sports competition. I very clearly said that they need to evaluate the capabilities of the trans athletes and develop compromised regulations in order to allow them to compete. Whether that means they compete in a higher weight bracket than they would otherwise fit into, or have a slight handicap applied to their positions, whatever rules need to be applied in order to create a fair competitive environment for everyone.
Looks pretty fair to me, boss. I challenge your "logic" and the conclusions you have erroneously reached due to the flawed data set.
Bottom line is that testosterone development provide enhanced physical ability over natural women who lack the higher level of it. Whether that testosterone is artificial (like in Mack's case) or not.
So where's the obvious advantage of the trans athletes? Because if our go-to examples are "a weightlifter that washed out and placed literally last", "a cyclist that could be beat by women 10 years older than her", and "a dude on testosterone supplements forced into women's competitions"...the fuck do we need stricter regulations for?

So yes: I'm directly calling you a conspiracy theorist for holding to an argument in spite of empirical evidence.
 

Cheetodust

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So where's the obvious advantage of the trans athletes? Because if our go-to examples are "a weightlifter that washed out and placed literally last"
I mean to be fair to Hubbard, she is

A) in her 40's, particularly old for her sport.

B) Has a history of injury.

C) Was performing with the additional pressure of being hated by a huge number of dickheads and not even really having the support of her own country.

As for the topic at hand? Did she have an advantage? I absolutely believe she did. However she had one advantage out of countless possible advantages. Training for decades as a biological male with the capacity for muscle growth and bone density that that entails? It's gonna give her an edge over her peers. However most world class athletes are some kind of genetic anomaly.

Michael Phelps is basically a dolphin man.

Eddie Hall has a rare gene that basically allows him to grow far more muscle than is generally attainable. Look at a picture of that dude when he was 16.

There's another champion deadlifter for whom the bar rests at his patella when he locks out. Take it from someone who has, on multiple occasions, crushed his testicle at lock out that is an advantage I would take over higher testosterone any day of the week.

So yeah is being born genetically male potentially an advantage? Is it definitely enough of, or more of an advantage than other athletes have? Arguably not.
 

Agema

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Bottom line is that testosterone development provide enhanced physical ability over natural women who lack the higher level of it. Whether that testosterone is artificial (like in Mack's case) or not.
Capability comes down to a lot of factors. I was a decent sprinter, but never under any circumstances would I have made it to a top level final: bone structure, musculature, etc. If some people are never going to be top sprinters because they've just not got the right musculoskeletal conformation, why are higher natural testosterone levels unfair? Aren't both of them just biology? One person through some quirk of nature gets great legs, another through some other quirk of nature gets ten times higher testosterone. Everyone else who got neither just has to suck it up.

Next, the likelihood is that most men in the world could not equal the world's top women no matter how much they trained. You could think of it as two overlapping bell curves, e.g. as a figurative example:
1627979387767.png

The male bell curve may be shifted to higher physical performance, but the tail end of the women's curve where the best are will exceed a staggeringly large majority of the men's. To give an idea of this, view the Olympic heats for the men's 100m: a substantial number of the male athletes were running slower times than the female athletes in the women's final. Thus in all likelihood some whole countries do not have a single man who can sprint faster than the world's fastest women. As a result of this, a "takeover" of women's sports by trans women is extraordinarily unlikely. Around 1% of the population identifies as transgender (including non-binary) and the number who have undergone some sort of medical transition is vastly lower still. Consequently the crossover of ultra-high performing sportspeople and trans-people is going to be exceptionally small. This will almost guarantee that the top performing women in sports will overwhelmingly remain cis-women.

I would only enter a caveat that there is a fair rationale for someone to undergo a certain level of transition before they change sporting gender assignment. But it's not exactly like we have Mike Smith, 7th in the men's national 100m sprint, suddenly rocking up as "Michaela Smith" and demanding to run in the women's 100m on nothing but his say-so, is it?
 

Baffle

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Eddie Hall has a rare gene that basically allows him to grow far more muscle than is generally attainable. Look at a picture of that dude when he was 16.
Jesus, just looked it up -- he looks younger now than he did then.
 

Baffle

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Whether that means they compete in a higher weight bracket than they would otherwise fit into, or have a slight handicap applied to their positions, whatever rules need to be applied in order to create a fair competitive environment for everyone.
It's impossible to do that because you'll never be able to specify how large or small an advantage has been given/taken away. And you can't handicap for 'fairness' in sports based on genetics unless you want to introduce ideas like making Kenyan distance-runners wear lead (the metal, not their position in the race) shoes, or allow people with less than 20/20 vision to stand closer to the target in shooting games (glasses/lenses don't correct vision 100%). Elite-level sport (and life) is inherently unfair because we are not all created equal.
 

CriticalGaming

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It's impossible to do that because you'll never be able to specify how large or small an advantage has been given/taken away. And you can't handicap for 'fairness' in sports based on genetics unless you want to introduce ideas like making Kenyan distance-runners wear lead (the metal, not their position in the race) shoes, or allow people with less than 20/20 vision to stand closer to the target in shooting games (glasses/lenses don't correct vision 100%). Elite-level sport (and life) is inherently unfair because we are not all created equal.
Yeah you're are probably right. I'm just spitballing anyway. The point is that I think transpeople should be able to compete but perhaps should be evaluated on performance potential or something to determine in which catagory they'll fit into.

Hell if gender doesn't matter in physical sports then let's throw the men and women together based on where they fall within competitive ranges during qualifying.....although i suppose that could lead to a lot of cheating so maybe not that.

Bottom line is, i just want to find a fair way for everyone to compete. I don't know the answer but eventually the commitees involved will figure it out. More data is likely needed.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Bottom line is, i just want to find a fair way for everyone to compete. I don't know the answer but eventually the commitees involved will figure it out. More data is likely needed.
So why are we working on the assumption that the rules are unfair as of now and definitely need changing?
 

CriticalGaming

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So why are we working on the assumption that the rules are unfair as of now and definitely need changing?
Because the Olympics commission already declared that they are changing the criteria for Trans participants, so I went based off their assumption that something needs to change or be tweaked.
 

Baffle

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Because the Olympics commission already declared that they are changing the criteria for Trans participants, so I went based off their assumption that something needs to change or be tweaked.
We have not, as far as I'm aware, seen any unexpected upsets from the inclusion of trans sportspeople. We can worry about it if we have to worry about it (I'm not worried), but right now sports is being used as a stick to beat trans people (women in particular) by people who don't give the faintest fuck about sports or fairness in sports, they just don't like trans people and are looking for any avenue available to make their lives (which I would guess are already kind of difficult) harder. Can't be doing with it.
 
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CriticalGaming

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We have not, as far as I'm aware, seen any unexpected upsets from the inclusion of trans sportspeople. We can worry about it if we have to worry about it (I'm not worried), but right now sports is being used as a stick to beat trans people (women in particular) by people who don't give the faintest fuck about sports or fairness in sports, they just don't like trans people and are looking for any avenue available to make their lives (which I would guess are already kind of difficult) harder. Can't be doing with it.
Interesting point. Question, why do you think it is specifically that trans women seem to have all the problems and trans men dont face it as much.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So the new plan of the woke lot in the UK. Work to deselect and conservative for being eligible to be voted for in local elections


The problem and comedy of it.
Each party selects their own candidates and who they want to field in each constituency thus you can't actually make it so the conservative party can't field candidates for local elections because the only people allowed to make candidate selections are the parties themselves not the general public or rival parties.
 

Agema

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Interesting point. Question, why do you think it is specifically that trans women seem to have all the problems and trans men dont face it as much.
Probably it's a lot to do with the fact that women are still more on the receiving end of societal sexism than men.
 

Silvanus

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Interesting point. Question, why do you think it is specifically that trans women seem to have all the problems and trans men dont face it as much.
I'd assume it's because transphobia (as with homophobia) sometimes comes from the transphobe's own insecurity over their sexuality, and men tend on average to be more vociferous and aggressive about things they don't like (or feel insecure about).
 

Baffle

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Interesting point. Question, why do you think it is specifically that trans women seem to have all the problems and trans men dont face it as much.
In this case because you can't beat trans men with the same stick in relation to sport.

More broadly because there are some cis women who don't accept that trans women are women, and as such they have a problem with trans women in what they consider to be cis women-only spaces. And, of course, there are, and always will be, some awful clownshoes men who say they're trans women to abuse the idea of trans and cis women sharing the same spaces, because they don't even slightly care about the repercussions for trans people. Think of it like the people who pretended they couldn't wear a mask for 'health reasons', when their real reason is that they don't want to wear a mask, or people who only care about homeless veterans when they want to shit on immigrants - it's the same approach: hide behind a vulnerable group to get away with my bad behaviour.

I find the whole issue incredibly tiring and demoralising, and can't really imagine how it must feel for trans people to live in an environment so hostile to the idea of them living as real, comfortable, genuine people.
 

happyninja42

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Interesting point. Question, why do you think it is specifically that trans women seem to have all the problems and trans men dont face it as much.
I would suspect some aspect of the following.

*disclaimer* This is my theory on the mindset of anti-trans, not my thoughts on the subject.

Trans men just seem to be statistically less common? Or at least less likely to be out. And, I also think there is something of a cultural acceptance of "butch chicks" being able to muscle it out in sports. So, in the view of someone who is anti-trans in sports, the idea of a woman, beefing up and out-performing dudes in some competition, doesn't really seem out of place in their world view. They see the women coming from a place of weakness by comparison, so there is less blowback? This isn't a sure thing of course, as I'm certain some of them have decried "testosterone! it's cheating!" Though usually the shots they are taking are usually to just bring them up to "male normal" levels, not beyond.

But, some guy, "pretending" to be a woman, and going and crushing all our poor, helpless daughters who are trying to do sports, is unfair in their minds.
 
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Silvanus

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Oh look there you go again telling me my intent.
If somebody says, "Oh, so you're fine with [killing people/ eating babies/ bombing puppies], are you?!?", nobody in their right mind would conclude that it's a question asked in good faith, rather than an obviously hostile accusation.

The idea that it was a question asked in good faith is so laughable, it's almost like something from a Mitchell and Webb sketch.

In short: I didn't tell you your intent. You made your intent blindingly obvious when you started throwing shit at people.

But stating categorically that a person has harmed others isn't an accusation of a specific wrongdoing?
Pray tell, what specific wrongdoing does the term "harmful" indicate?

Is it assault? Battery? Murder? Stalking? Those are all demonstrable terms. Which is it?

Except I very clearly wasn't and the only reason to accuse me of such was to strawman me to make it easier for your argument.
Someone explicitly condones criticism, and never mentions abuse or harassment.

You accuse them directly of condoning abuse and harassment.

"Except I very clearly wasn't" is just the nineteenth empty denial to plop onto the pile, as if it's worth anything at all.