Funny events in anti-woke world

Hawki

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I used to be a leftist and then I realised they also believed equality, fair treatment and welfare was also deserved by non-whites, women, immigrants, homosexuals, Muslims and Jews. So I thought fuck that shit and signed up with the far right instead, and now everyone calls me a Nazi instead.
Yeah...remember Saelune? How the defintion of Nazi and fascist became a bit more...flexible?

Edit: Removed image, now I know where it came from.
 
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Hawki

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I don't think anyone posting Stonetoss comics has any ground to stand on when it comes to judging people for their political views.
Alright, I had to look up what Stonetoss was, and...yikes.

But on the other hand, if your political views boil down to "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi/fascist," then there isn't much wriggle room.
 
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dreng3

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Alright, I had to look up what Stonetoss was, and...yikes.

But on the other hand, if your political views boil down to "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi/fascist," then there isn't much wriggle room.
Yikes indeed.

I don't know about everyone who disagrees with me, but I tend to be fairly flexible and allow for compromise so someone with whom I can find no common ground is probably someone so far into the fringes that they belong to a group that is generally considered bad.
 

Agema

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Yeah...remember Saelune? How the defintion of Nazi and fascist became a bit more...flexible?
Read again carefully, extra emphasis in bold: So I thought fuck that shit and signed up with the far right instead, and now everyone calls me a Nazi instead.

Although fascists have always gained power through taking over the mainstream right and often come directly from the right, the left has also been a significant route into fascism. We frequently see in practice some fascistic parties (e.g. the UK's BNP) initially break through by exploiting unhappiness in deprived, primarily left-wing voting communities. Plenty of left-wing voters are authoritarian and open to strong leaders and strict social order. Plenty are very nationalist, and exclusionary towards perceived outsiders. Plenty are socially conservative. Fascism is economically quite centreist, thus offers programs and ideas that will be familiar to and approved of by many traditional left voters, and whilst I wouldn't say fascism is "anti-capitalist" as such, it certainly has forms of overt hostility to big business and the super-rich.

Thus a chunk of the left are not that far from fascism, it doesn't take a lot of shoving to get them over the line into it, and the left is where plenty of adherents of the modern far right will have come from.
 

Seanchaidh

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Plenty are socially conservative. Fascism is economically quite centreist, thus offers programs and ideas that will be familiar to and approved of by many traditional left voters, and whilst I wouldn't say fascism is "anti-capitalist" as such, it certainly has forms of overt hostility to big business and the super-rich.
"the socialism of fools"
 

Hawki

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Read again carefully, extra emphasis in bold: So I thought fuck that shit and signed up with the far right instead, and now everyone calls me a Nazi instead.

Although fascists have always gained power through taking over the mainstream right and often come directly from the right, the left has also been a significant route into fascism. We frequently see in practice some fascistic parties (e.g. the UK's BNP) initially break through by exploiting unhappiness in deprived, primarily left-wing voting communities. Plenty of left-wing voters are authoritarian and open to strong leaders and strict social order. Plenty are very nationalist, and exclusionary towards perceived outsiders. Plenty are socially conservative. Fascism is economically quite centreist, thus offers programs and ideas that will be familiar to and approved of by many traditional left voters, and whilst I wouldn't say fascism is "anti-capitalist" as such, it certainly has forms of overt hostility to big business and the super-rich.

Thus a chunk of the left are not that far from fascism, it doesn't take a lot of shoving to get them over the line into it, and the left is where plenty of adherents of the modern far right will have come from.
Um...

Okay, I know the idea of a left-right divide is arguably simplistic, but isn't "left wing fascism" a contradiction in terms? It's like saying "right wing socialism/communism." Clearly both left and right can become authoratarian (it's why I'm happy to criticize the left as much as the right, at least in principle), but fascism is usually defined as a far right ideology.

If you're making the argument that people who might have been on the left have gone to the right, then yes, that's true (it's true here to an extent, and I understand it's pretty true in the UK and US), but...well, to be honest, it isn't hard to see why. Heck, I'd count myself among them, at least in as much as being disillusioned with the left's excesses in those countries.
 
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Silvanus

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...say the persons trying to present what at best is borderline Libel if not outright libel as criticism and having to resort to semantic to do so rather than the spirit of the claims being made.
You don't have the faintest idea what constitutes libel, as is quite obvious. You've made unsubstantiated criminal accusations about other people and then asserted that opinions and value judgements that they've made constitute criminal acts... its so legally illiterate it's laughable.


Except the way it was presented on the Subedit was as an objective claim not merely a personal opinion.
Not I believe his actions have hurt people. An objective statement that they have hurt people and not specifically stating "Their feelings"
Saying "X is harmful" or "X is acting harmfully" is not an objective claim.

Yeah, you don't have to specifically state "I feel..." in order for something to be a statement of opinion, because its bleeding obvious that it is. Just like if I say, "I have 3 rocks", that's an objective claim, without me needing to specify "it is a fact that...."

So was criticism irrelevant to what the people they were replying to were on about. So it's fine for some people to be irrelevant to try and conflate or deflect but not ok to be irrelevant in the way you call it out?

Tell me if they won't refute my claim how do you know they don't condone harassment and abuse?
how do I know they don't...? That's not how the burden of proof works.

You made an accusation of a criminal act. You made the claim. It's on you to substantiate it. You haven't, because it was a lie.

Oh I thought context didn't matter so unless you caught the thief with the item in their possession you couldn't say they stole it?
Are you actually capable of following this argument?

Nobody said "context doesn't matter". The issue is that you've repeatedly brought up "context" that has nothing to do with the central claim you made.

Evidence of theft is relevant context. You moaning that posters haven't laid out their position, or that they brought up criticism when you don't think they should have done, has no bearing whatsoever to the central claim that they condoned abuse.

It's all just so much irrelevant finger-pointing and accusation.
 
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McElroy

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Yeah...remember Saelune? How the defintion of Nazi and fascist became a bit more...flexible?
Still going strong on that part (in other social media that I checked only because of the mention). Basically, anti-bigotry transcends time and space and anyone not on that side is just a couple of steps away from approving genocide. Very much a fun-at-parties -type.
 
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Hawki

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Still going strong on that part (in other social media that I checked only because of the mention). Basically, anti-bigotry transcends time and space and anyone not on that side is just a couple of steps away from approving genocide. Very much a fun-at-parties -type.
Something something monsters, something something becoming them. :(

For what it's worth, I somehow stumbled across Zontar on Twitter as well. He seems to have gone off the deep end.
 
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Gordon_4

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Something something monsters, something something becoming them. :(

For what it's worth, I somehow stumbled across Zontar on Twitter as well. He seems to have gone off the deep end.

Also relevant.
 
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Chimpzy

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For what it's worth, I somehow stumbled across Zontar on Twitter as well. He seems to have gone off the deep end.
Oh, shouldn't be hard to find and ... oh. Yup, right into the gravity well, past the event horizon. With a reverse 4½ somersault. But you know, not really a big surprise, innit?
 

Cheetodust

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Oh, shouldn't be hard to find and ... oh. Yup, right into the gravity well, past the event horizon. With a reverse 4½ somersault. But you know, not really a big surprise, innit?
Oh my. Always struggled to tell if that guy was just a troll or not but yeah he seems genuinely unhinged
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Um...

Okay, I know the idea of a left-right divide is arguably simplistic, but isn't "left wing fascism" a contradiction in terms? It's like saying "right wing socialism/communism." Clearly both left and right can become authoratarian (it's why I'm happy to criticize the left as much as the right, at least in principle), but fascism is usually defined as a far right ideology.

If you're making the argument that people who might have been on the left have gone to the right, then yes, that's true (it's true here to an extent, and I understand it's pretty true in the UK and US), but...well, to be honest, it isn't hard to see why. Heck, I'd count myself among them, at least in as much as being disillusioned with the left's excesses in those countries.
Nah Agema has a point very much that both sides can slide to fascism pretty quickly without even realising or being very much unwilling to recognise it because they're getting to "Win" as such.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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You don't have the faintest idea what constitutes libel, as is quite obvious. You've made unsubstantiated criminal accusations about other people and then asserted that opinions and value judgements that they've made constitute criminal acts... its so legally illiterate it's laughable.
Yes I do.
Also it's not criminal to be fine with death threats and abuse unless you're helping do said stuff or in a position of power where you should have acted to stop it. Being a movieBob "No bad tactics only bad targets" isn't illegal lol.

Also Libel is a civil case not a criminal one so it's not a criminal accusation as such it's a civil accusation of wrongdoing.

I mean you say I'm legally illiterate and you pull this nonsense? What's next the belief you can go to jail for being nasty to people........ oh wait that really is what some people very much would like, at least for people they don't agree with.



Saying "X is harmful" or "X is acting harmfully" is not an objective claim.

Yeah, you don't have to specifically state "I feel..." in order for something to be a statement of opinion, because its bleeding obvious that it is. Just like if I say, "I have 3 rocks", that's an objective claim, without me needing to specify "it is a fact that...."
Actually it is a claim being presented in an objective manner even if the claim is subjective and not based in reality the presentation of it is objective often because that's seen as more persuasive. E.G. "You're problematic" tends to get a response or action or looking into it while "I'm offended" tends to get a response of "Well so fucking what?"


how do I know they don't...? That's not how the burden of proof works.

You made an accusation of a criminal act. You made the claim. It's on you to substantiate it. You haven't, because it was a lie.
Well I presented options. You said none of the options were right. So yes the burden on proof would now be on you to state why your 3rd option is the correct one not either of the options I presented.

Also it's a Civil action not criminal action. Libel is determined by civil courts normally.


Are you actually capable of following this argument?

Nobody said "context doesn't matter". The issue is that you've repeatedly brought up "context" that has nothing to do with the central claim you made.

Evidence of theft is relevant context. You moaning that posters haven't laid out their position, or that they brought up criticism when you don't think they should have done, has no bearing whatsoever to the central claim that they condoned abuse.

It's all just so much irrelevant finger-pointing and accusation.
Well you on about how the things I'm bringing up have nothing to do with what was said would probably come under a personal incredulity fallacy there.

Also yes said context of them refusing to lay out their position can be taken in context as them being unwilling to state a position because their true position would be bad PR wise to admit to.
 

Agema

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Okay, I know the idea of a left-right divide is arguably simplistic, but isn't "left wing fascism" a contradiction in terms?
Pretty much, yes.

"Right wing", in a wider historical and geographical sense, generally means conservatism, high social order and hierarchy. These days it tends to be used to represent high economic freedom (although I would argue in that our modern societies economic freedom serves hierarchy, social order and conservatism). This historically and geographically illiterate association of the right wing with economic freedom is the main basis tedious wankers try to argue fascism is actually left-wing or "socialism".

Anyway, the poin is that a substantial number of people who usually vote for left wing parties can have really quite right wing mindsets and values in certain ways. They just need the right incentivisation to switch support to fascism.
 

Agema

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For what it's worth, I somehow stumbled across Zontar on Twitter as well. He seems to have gone off the deep end.
I am trying to locate my sense of surprise, but it seems to be nowhere to be found.
 

Revnak

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Something something monsters, something something becoming them. :(

For what it's worth, I somehow stumbled across Zontar on Twitter as well. He seems to have gone off the deep end.
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO JUST SAY THAT AND NOT SHARE A LINK YOU CRUEL SOUL
 

AnxietyProne

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But hey I'm apparently evil because I don't automatically support feel good knee jerk moves that aren't all properly thought through.
Well, I'm apparently evil because I dared question The God Emperor and TRUE PRESIDENT claims, and even worse, I had the gall to bring up some pretty shit things he did even before 2016. Hell, I'm also pro vax which got me told to leave the country and take my Marxist friends with me.

Things are tough all over, aren't they?
 

Gordon_4

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Apparently the reason the US women’s soccer team lost against Sweden 3-0 is because they’re too woke. Ignoring that after that sting of defeat they beat New Zealand 6-1. Gee, it’s almost in an elite sporting competition there’s gonna be some fucking hard arse players. And it’s not like opening game of an Olympic level comp is gonna have players nervous or literally any other thousands of factors that mean they just fuck up. No no, it’s got to be because they’re ‘woke’.

Jesus Christ, change the fucking tune, Donald.
 
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