Futuristic EmDrive Still Works After Latest Round of Tests

[Fanghawk]

Futuristic EmDrive Still Works After Latest Round of Tests

We're waiting on a peer-reviewed paper, but NASA Eagleworks engineer Paul March confirmed the fuel-less EmDrive works after accounting for errors.

We here at The Escapist <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/140670-NASA-Confirms-The-EMDrive-Warp-Field-Still-Generates-Works-In-A-Vacuum>are pretty excited about the futuristic EmDrive, even though nobody has a clue how the thing works. In case you missed <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/140606-NASA-May-Have-Accidentally-Stumbled-Across-Warp-Fields>our previous coverage, the EmDrive is a fuel-less spacecraft propulsion engine that pushes microwaves into a truncated cone to generate thrust. But it's also generated intense controversy, mostly because reaction-less thrust is considered impossible under our modern understanding of physics. All the same, experts continue to claim the EmDrive works as advertised - including Paul March, a NASA Eagleworks engineer who recently shared EmDrive test information on the NASA Spaceflight forums.

The post is filled with technical science-speak (this is literally rocket science), so here's the layman version: One valid EmDrive criticism was that stray magnetic fields might have created the appearance of thrust in error. According to March, NASA's latest round of tests accounted for that by adding a new magnetic damper to the EmDrive. While March can't share the actual data - which is regulated under NASA's press release rules - he could say the EmDrive continued to generate "anomalous thrust" in the new tests.

"I wish I could show you all the pictures I've taken on how we saluted and mitigated the issues raised by our EW Lab's Blue-Ribbon PhD panel and now Potomac-Neuron's paper," March wrote. "However since I still can't show you this supporting data until the EW Lab gets our next peer-reviewed lab paper published, I will tell you that we first built and installed a 2nd generation, closed face magnetic damper that reduced the stray magnetic fields in the vacuum chamber by at least an order of magnitude and any Lorentz force interactions it could produce."

There is still one matter to account for: Despite largely ruling out Lorentz forces, a thermal expansion contamination exists which actually gets worse in a vacuum. That's a problem if we hope to use the EmDrive for space travel, so NASA is developing an advanced analytics tool and an integrated test to address the error. But all the same, NASA engineers speaking favorably about the EmDrive is highly promising for its prospects.

Now if only we could get that peer-reviewed data...

Source: Digital Trends

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[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Yes, but how are our Gellar Field tests going? Lets not have a repeat of Alan Grant and the Event Horizon.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Huh. Well waddaya know.

I didn't expect to hear about this again, actually. But here it is, another device that seems to do an incredibly useful thing with us barely having a clue on how it does so. It's funny how that's not even a rare thing. We don't even really know how a bicycle physically functions. So this thing seems to be our space-bike then. Cool. Now let's wait and see what the peer-reviewed data says.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

How does one create a machine that they do not know how it works? I am coming at this from all angles, but thrusting this information upon one so briefly does make one dazed and confused. Or should i say...spaced?

 

[Gorrath]

How does one create a machine that they do not know how it works? I am coming at this from all angles, but thrusting this information upon one so briefly does make one dazed and confused. Or should i say...spaced?

It's pretty much a Eureka effect mixed with us having an incomplete (to put it mildly) understanding of the science and forces involved. The Greeks invented some really impressive steam engines that they didn't completely understand. Sometimes invention is the slow process of trial and error science and sometimes it's a wondrous cart put before a methodical horse.

 

[P-89 Scorpion]

From the forum link where this 'news article' and I use the term loosely comes from


"This is a paper explaining why the emdrive thrust is just an error in the experiment design. It could use a bit more rigor in parts, but its point is to demonstrate that a significant source of error exists, not to precisely measure the magnitude, which would require them to have access to the original experiment equipment."

"To reiterate, this paper claims (reasonably) that the measured thrust is an experimental error, and suggests an incorrect calibration of the Lorentz force effect on the setup as the cause of the error."

 

[flying_whimsy]

Yay, passed another test. I have my own theories about why this thing works, but considering I only have a BA (in philosophy, no less), I'll just wait and see what NASA says whenever they figure it out.

This is so cool, though: it could totally change how we do satellites and stuff.

 

[Fanghawk]

From the forum link where this 'news article' and I use the term loosely comes from


"This is a paper explaining why the emdrive thrust is just an error in the experiment design. It could use a bit more rigor in parts, but its point is to demonstrate that a significant source of error exists, not to precisely measure the magnitude, which would require them to have access to the original experiment equipment."

"To reiterate, this paper claims (reasonably) that the measured thrust is an experimental error, and suggests an incorrect calibration of the Lorentz force effect on the setup as the cause of the error."

You are quoting someone in the forums who briefly summarized a paper suggesting the EmDrive's thrust is actually a technical error.

Paul March (the NASA engineer I referenced) responded to the comment by saying NASA already addressed those concerns, and the only reason more people don't know about it is because the peer-review process is intolerably slow.

So unless Paul March is a liar, or future tests overturn his points, everything should be in order here.

Or is there some other point you're trying to make?

 

[SupahEwok]

From the forum link where this 'news article' and I use the term loosely comes from


"This is a paper explaining why the emdrive thrust is just an error in the experiment design. It could use a bit more rigor in parts, but its point is to demonstrate that a significant source of error exists, not to precisely measure the magnitude, which would require them to have access to the original experiment equipment."

"To reiterate, this paper claims (reasonably) that the measured thrust is an experimental error, and suggests an incorrect calibration of the Lorentz force effect on the setup as the cause of the error."

You... you do realize the bits that this article quotes are replying to what you quoted, to refute what that person said?

Or are you so eager to support your own view on the subject you'll take whatever quotes you can get out of context and twist them to support yourself?

Edit: Ninja'd by author.

 

[whatever55]

how much thrust are we talking about here? how big is that thing(the picture doesn't have anything next to it to put it into scale) and much force does it supposedly generate?

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

It's pretty much a Eureka effect mixed with us having an incomplete (to put it mildly) understanding of the science and forces involved. The Greeks invented some really impressive steam engines that they didn't completely understand. Sometimes invention is the slow process of trial and error science and sometimes it's a wondrous cart put before a methodical horse.

Ah yes, i see what you mean. Whatever was this device originally intended for? Actually i'll do the looking instead of asking *taptaptap* ...it was made...to be an Emdrive?! Hmm this appears to have a complex scientific history of varying uncertainty. Well it sure is an exciting prospect to watch unfold. I hope i don't have to unlearn all that physics they gave me. Wonder if you can get a course refund if that happens. Hmm...

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"Now if only we could get that peer-reviewed data..."
Well, since *I* at least am not a rocket scientist I'd say 'get that peer reviewed conclusion paragraph they release for the press'

Still sceptical though. This would break thermo-dynamics and that seems... a little too huge, for my tastes.
But who knows? Free energy is of course great, especially when it's not fossil fuel based.

 

[Pyrian]

how much thrust are we talking about here?

Negligible. Nobody's using this unexplained anomaly to go anywhere without several orders of magnitude more to explain. It's worth noting that the experiment conclusively disproved the hypotheses that caused the device to be built in the first place.

 

[Lightknight]

So the remaining problem is thermal expansion contaminating the results? That's pretty cool. I didn't think I'd hear about this again but for once we're seeing a clear timeline on something:

2003 - Shawyer Releases it.
2009 - Chinese team publishes positive results.
2013/2014 - NASA also tests the drive and publishes positive findings.
2015 - NASA tests again to rule out Lorentz forces and is still successful.

Next we need the peer review test and the second test that deals with thermal expansion.

The theory that the "propellant" could be virtual particles is hugely exciting.

 

[Fanghawk]

how much thrust are we talking about here? how big is that thing(the picture doesn't have anything next to it to put it into scale) and much force does it supposedly generate?

Negligible. Nobody's using this unexplained anomaly to go anywhere without several orders of magnitude more to explain. It's worth noting that the experiment conclusively disproved the hypotheses that caused the device to be built in the first place.

In fairness, these tests are purposely being conducted at low power/thrust. Scientists are just trying to figure out how this thing works, not Kerbal Space Program it to a starship to see what happens.

That in mind, reports from earlier this year predicted that if everything works as advertised, and we put a version of it on a two-to-six person spaceship, it could reach the moon within four hours and reach neighboring star systems in about a century. Not Star Trek light speed figures, but not too shabby either.

 

[Souplex]

How does one create a machine that they do not know how it works? I am coming at this from all angles, but thrusting this information upon one so briefly does make one dazed and confused. Or should i say...spaced?

Aliens give us the technology without explaining it, and then have our scientists bullshit an answer to the public.
...Or I have no idea.

 

[Briggins]

Aliens give us the technology without explaining it, and then have our scientists bullshit an answer to the public.
...Or I have no idea.

We should also consider carbon dating Shawyer, just to rule out the possiblity he's from the future.

 

[Pyrian]

In fairness, these tests are purposely being conducted at low power/thrust.

Nah. It's not easily scalable. If it were, they'd be more than happy to scale it up to the point where the effect couldn't be mistaken for tiny fluctuations of various obscure effects. Depending on what's really going on, it is fairly likely that it cannot be scaled up - quantum effects often don't.

That in mind, reports from earlier this year predicted that if everything works as advertised, and we put a version of it on a two-to-six person spaceship, it could reach the moon within four hours and reach neighboring star systems in about a century.

But things already don't work as advertised. The open question is why it works at all.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

How does one create a machine that they do not know how it works? I am coming at this from all angles, but thrusting this information upon one so briefly does make one dazed and confused. Or should i say...spaced?

Honestly, it's not hard for me to see how something like that is possible. Personally, when I was doing a bachelor's in science, I had such bad teachers who didn't explain shit, that the only way to pass was to think your way out of it using pure math. I passed several courses using nothing but math even though I didn't understand the processes behind anything in the slightest.

In this case, it's probably just a case of our understanding being incomplete. If it still passes the final tests that is.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Aliens give us the technology without explaining it, and then have our scientists bullshit an answer to the public.
...Or I have no idea.

You may have hit the conspiring nail on the head right there! I feel the sudden desire to give you all my money and belongings for more answers and a ride in whatever sweet technology you happen to be sporting in a barely guarded barnhouse. It won't be like last time, i promise!

Honestly, it's not hard for me to see how something like that is possible. Personally, when I was doing a bachelor's in science, I had such bad teachers who didn't explain shit, that the only way to pass was to think your way out of it using pure math. I passed several courses using nothing but math even though I didn't understand the processes behind anything in the slightest.

In this case, it's probably just a case of our understanding being incomplete. If it still passes the final tests that is.

That happened to me with English classes. I had to talk my way out of most lessons. You don't want to hear about the physical education workaround