Game of Thrones - I give up

Ursus Buckler

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Your opinion is your opinion and what you do is your own choice... I'll admit I had a similar thing with Serenity.

when Wash and Book die.

After watching Serenity, I gave up on it. I considered it non-canon. I wouldn't even acknowledge it for a while. But then I came back to it, processed it and carried on, and now I can watch it and accept it again. It was then I realised, this is exactly what happens when someone close to you dies. You can't accept it for a while. You distance yourself from the truth. But eventually there comes a point where you have to confront it, and you process it, and then eventually you come to accept it. That, I think, is the mark of great fiction- is that it makes you so sure that these characters are real people, that you treat their deaths like the deaths of people in your life.
It's the same for Game of Thrones. The characters that die in 'The Red Wedding' weren't characters that I felt particularly endeared to at the beginning, but after spending more time with them, getting to know them as characters, I recognised them as human beings and came to like them- just like a relationship with real people. And that's what made their deaths so palpable. The fact that you can feel emotion to the point that you can't take it anymore, to the point that you want to stop watching- that's what makes the writing so good.
Dealing with death is all part of being an adult. Life isn't pretty. The success of Game of Thrones is that despite being a fantasy, the world and characters feel real. But if you can't deal with not having a chosen one succeeds over the forces of evil plot, then stick to what you were watching before.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Martin's primary goal in this series is subversion. He's trying to subvert any and all expectations attached to the genre. In this light (and he pretty much confirmed this) Robb was screwed the moment Martin killed off Ned. Removing the primary protagonist in the very first book was obviously gutsy, but it wouldn't have much impact if he's got a perfectly honorable and capable next of kin ready and willing to make things right. People were "okay" with Ned's unfair demise because the automatic assumption was that Robb would have revenge. The boy's incredible run of success on the battlefield furthered this assumption. Ultimately, this success was a ruse aimed at disarming us for a second and final time.

In other words: Martin realized that the lesson of Ned's death would need to be taught twice. When you think about it, it makes sense.
 

AkatsukiLeader13

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Ursus Buckler said:
Your opinion is your opinion and what you do is your own choice... I'll admit I had a similar thing with Serenity.

when Wash and Book die.

After watching Serenity, I gave up on it. I considered it non-canon. I wouldn't even acknowledge it for a while. But then I came back to it, processed it and carried on, and now I can watch it and accept it again. It was then I realised, this is exactly what happens when someone close to you dies. You can't accept it for a while. You distance yourself from the truth. But eventually there comes a point where you have to confront it, and you process it, and then eventually you come to accept it. That, I think, is the mark of great fiction- is that it makes you so sure that these characters are real people, that you treat their deaths like the deaths of people in your life.
It's the same for Game of Thrones. The characters that die in 'The Red Wedding' weren't characters that I felt particularly endeared to at the beginning, but after spending more time with them, getting to know them as characters, I recognised them as human beings and came to like them- just like a relationship with real people. And that's what made their deaths so palpable. The fact that you can feel emotion to the point that you can't take it anymore, to the point that you want to stop watching- that's what makes the writing so good.
Dealing with death is all part of being an adult. Life isn't pretty. The success of Game of Thrones is that despite being a fantasy, the world and characters feel real. But if you can't deal with not having a chosen one succeeds over the forces of evil plot, then stick to what you were watching before.
I agree completely, both on GoT/ASoFaI and Serenity. If people get upset and heartbroken over the Red Wedding or Ned's death than George Martin as well as the cast and crew are doing their jobs. A story is at its best if we feel for the characters, if we become attached to them. Because we cheer with them when they succeed, we feel their pain when they suffer and we mourn them when they die as we would a friend.
 

Delance

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The thing is that the story is still going on. Now everyone expects Martin to subvert expectations. If the does keep this up in the ending, then he'll paradoxically be doing what everyone expects. The only way to really surprise everyone and subvert expectations is to follow some conventions in the end. Maybe something in the middle of the road.

After all, he doesn't entirely subvert every single expectation and convention so that the story would be too messy, but just enough to get people invested.
 

Loreley

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I guess it depends on who you are rooting for in the show (or the books, I know them better). I care what happens to the Lannisters and the Tyrells, so the RW wasn't very traumatic to me. I always found the most interesting part about GoT/ASOIAF is that you can take your pick thanks to the many different fleshed-out viewpoints you get and that the lines between good and evil shift accordingly for every character and their perception. That's incidentally why the Starks are not very interesting to me.

Also, I wouldn't count too much on the subversion thing. GRRM is a good writer with interesting ideas and characters, but he still has quite a few conventions. For every shade-of-grey villain, there's one Mountain That Rides who's about as nuanced as your average fantasy orc. The Starks are pretty much protected from moral corruption by Power of Protagonist - if one of them actually starts a real Heel-Turn, then I'd be impressed. Good people dying tragic, undeserved deaths is not exactly a new thing.
 

Silvanus

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Loreley said:
The Starks are pretty much protected from moral corruption by Power of Protagonist - if one of them actually starts a real Heel-Turn, then I'd be impressed. Good people dying tragic, undeserved deaths is not exactly a new thing.
I really wouldn't agree with those who say the Starks are one-dimensional good guys. Catelyn's attitude to Jon; the incredible darkness in Arya ("be gone, Dark Heart!"); even...

Jon's deal-making with the Wildlings and Stannis

... are all examples of the grey tinging their white.

They are more well-rounded than people give them credit for, but because they were never interested in playing "the game", it's become quite fashionable to dismiss them.
 

Loreley

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Silvanus said:
Loreley said:
The Starks are pretty much protected from moral corruption by Power of Protagonist - if one of them actually starts a real Heel-Turn, then I'd be impressed. Good people dying tragic, undeserved deaths is not exactly a new thing.
I really wouldn't agree with those who say the Starks are one-dimensional good guys. Catelyn's attitude to Jon; the incredible darkness in Arya ("be gone, Dark Heart!"); even...

Jon's deal-making with the Wildlings and Stannis

... are all examples of the grey tinging their white.

They are more well-rounded than people give them credit for, but because they were never interested in playing "the game", it's become quite fashionable to dismiss them.
People make too much of the Jon thing. She said the Real Bad Thing - it should have been you - once, in a moment of very great stress. She worries about something that is quite sensible for the time period presented as she states in the book once (Jon's children might at some point come to murder her children's children, no matter what a good guy Jon is). That is a speck of dust on a white sheet, even though it was a terrible, terrible thing to say. And I do like Catelyn. I actually liked Robb, too. But I'm not very interested in them.

I'm not saying they're bad characters, just that I miss the tension that I see in other GRRM characters. They're not going to be villains. They're flirting with it, but so far, none of them has ever done anything that would bring them close to the point of no moral return. Arya is 11, which makes her being dark actually less significant because readers easily forgive a traumatised child, though as I said, I'd love it if she grew up a baddie or seriously on the fringe. Other characters (see Jaime) basically start out past anything we would ever forgive a character for, usually. That's what intrigued me first, knowing that at some point the child killer would have a POV.

Besides, the original title for the last book was A Time for Wolves. It's changed now, but probably only because it's a giant freakin' Spoiler Sign about who's going to come out on top here. Now, granted, there's other possible interpretations, but nothing I've read in the books convinces me. And if, then it would only be more tragic hero deaths.

But this is very much about what I personally enjoy about the series. I can see why people root for the Starks.
 

MarsProbe

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John Dies at the End

Though is that a spoiler for something that (possibly) happens at the end of Dance with Dragons, or the title of another book?

Anyway, that's a pity that the events of the last episode are going to stop you from watching. It just seems like the books/series aren't for you if what you're after is a happy clappy ending. I hear The Very Hungry Caterpillar is very good for that sort of thing...
 

AkatsukiLeader13

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MarsProbe said:
John Dies at the End

Though is that a spoiler for something that (possibly) happens at the end of Dance with Dragons, or the title of another book?

Anyway, that's a pity that the events of the last episode are going to stop you from watching. It just seems like the books/series aren't for you if what you're after is a happy clappy ending. I hear The Very Hungry Caterpillar is very good for that sort of thing...
If you're talking about Jon Snow his death wasn't confirmed. In fact when asked about Snow's fate Martin made no comment.
 

MarsProbe

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AkatsukiLeader13 said:
MarsProbe said:
John Dies at the End

Though is that a spoiler for something that (possibly) happens at the end of Dance with Dragons, or the title of another book?

Anyway, that's a pity that the events of the last episode are going to stop you from watching. It just seems like the books/series aren't for you if what you're after is a happy clappy ending. I hear The Very Hungry Caterpillar is very good for that sort of thing...
If you're talking about Jon Snow his death wasn't confirmed. In fact when asked about Snow's fate Martin made no comment.
Yeh, that's what I was referring to. I ended up adding that "possibly" at the last minute there as it really isn't confirmed for definite. Here's hoping. Also, before anyone says, I'm aware I spelt the name wrong. :)
 

DaKa

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Some of you might stone me and hang me for this, but the first GoT episode I've seen was this one. Before that, I've just listened to some of my friends' chatter about the whole book/series, and hearing them taking sides at either the more honorable or most evil characters (sorry, I didn't memorize their names yet). It was just a mere coincidence that I happened to stumble into one of my friend's room while he was watching that scene, and seeing that scene is what got me interested. The brutality and my emotional response acted like a catalyst in getting me to order the books. I didn't know who were most of the characters and it still left me speechless.

Now, I've managed to watch all of the episodes and honestly, all I could think was this question, which I aimed primarily at my friends, and now, to you: What did you expect? Personally, I like the whole story and the political intrigue spiced with betrayal and backstabbing. In a way, I hope that the most radical characters will die out (under radical character I mean overly honorable or overly evil), because they are to rigid to adapt to the events that follow: what doesn't bend, breaks.

Of course, this is just an opinion. Either way, this thread was an interesting read.
 

AkatsukiLeader13

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MarsProbe said:
Yeh, that's what I was referring to. I ended up adding that "possibly" at the last minute there as it really isn't confirmed for definite. Here's hoping. Also, before anyone says, I'm aware I spelt the name wrong. :)
Well given that Martin has made no comment about his status I'd say that the odds of survival are pretty good. Plus his parentage hasn't explained yet which is something that's been hinted at little too much for me to think that Martin's going to ignore that and have him killed before its revealed. Then again it wouldn't be the first time Martin's pulled the rug out from under us.
 

AkatsukiLeader13

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DaKa said:
Some of you might stone me and hang me for this, but the first GoT episode I've seen was this one. Before that, I've just listened to some of my friends' chatter about the whole book/series, and hearing them taking sides at either the more honorable or most evil characters (sorry, I didn't memorize their names yet). It was just a mere coincidence that I happened to stumble into one of my friend's room while he was watching that scene, and seeing that scene is what got me interested. The brutality and my emotional response acted like a catalyst in getting me to order the books. I didn't know who were most of the characters and it still left me speechless.

Now, I've managed to watch all of the episodes and honestly, all I could think was this question, which I aimed primarily at my friends, and now, to you: What did you expect? Personally, I like the whole story and the political intrigue spiced with betrayal and backstabbing. In a way, I hope that the most radical characters will die out (under radical character I mean overly honorable or overly evil), because they are to rigid to adapt to the events that follow: what doesn't bend, breaks.

Of course, this is just an opinion. Either way, this thread was an interesting read.
Well many of the major characters that died, died because of their actions and mistakes. Viserys was killed because he refused to listen to the wise advice of others and an act of impatience, stupidity and a touch of insanity killed him. Ned was killed because of his honor and his refusal to dirty himself in the... well Game of Thrones. Robb's... well Robb's death was much like Viserys's and his father's. And it's much the same for the two big deaths in the next season. Their deaths are ultimately by their own actions.

The most successful players in the whole game are ultimately Varys and Littlefinger, the two who largely sit in the murky grey neutral region of morality. Tyrion too to a degree but... well let's just say that the next season will not be kind to the Imp.
 

Undead Dragon King

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I never read the books, but this came as no major surprise to me. If there is one thing that I've learned from this series, it's that being "the good guys" in Westeros (n.b, not as evil as everyone else) is no defense in amount of backstabbing that goes on. The end of Season 1 rammed that lesson home quite well for me. No plot armor in this story!

"The good die first, and those whose hearts are dry as summer dust burn to the socket."
- William Wordsworth
 

Malty Milk Whistle

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I thought it was a cracking episode....
The way it seemed that, for a while, amendments were genuinely being made, then boom, foetus stab!
They could have done more with Grey Wind's death though, but otherwise, OP is being a bit of a sissy.
 

Jazzmigo

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Yeah i know what you up to. The last episode hit me so hart in my face i couldn't believe it. I was always proud to predict a movies plot or twist but dam i didn't see that coming. It is something new no "we are all happy at the end" its like free for all and everyone have a knife to back stab everyone. I'm so adore Game of Thrones even if it stabs me sometimes in my back : )
 

Nikolaz72

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Azo Galvat said:
Killing Starks is Martin's fetish.
Although you have to say...

Reviving them, another one

Frotality said:
It keeps you in genuine suspense knowing that no one has plot armor.
Almost no one has plot armor. At least 'three' characters has, mainly the three prophesized in the Song of Ice and Fire that will inevitably have to push back the White Walkers from Westeros.

As soon as I just find out who the third is I'll feel really proud of myself if none of the three die. Heh. I'm putting my money on at least two being Jon and Daenarys. Ice and Fire right there. Still dunno whom the third would be.

There is around three who fits the Avatar of Light reborn bill, hitting all the right requirements for being the Avatar. Stannis, Daenarys. And funny enough, Davos the Onion Smuggler (Truly reborn in fire, hah). I find it obvious out of those three for Daenarys to be the chosen... But it would be a middle-finger to the red priestesss if Davos Seaworth was the Avatar of Light... Would be so sweetly ironic

Requirements: Reborn in fire, pull out a weapon on the day of the comet. As far as I can tell those are the two major ones... Stannis was reborn into the service of the Lord of Light, he pulled out the Sword, Lightbringer from a pyre. But he wasn't exactly doing any of this on the day of the comet.

Daenarys was literally reborn in fire as a leader, pulled her dragons (Weapon of light) out of the fire. And did so on the day of the comet, so hers aren't even a stretch.

Davos was bombed in Dragonfire on the day of the comet and miraculously survived. If he 'himself' is the weapon. Which is a stretch, then he would fit the bill on all three counts. While both him and Stannis are further away than Daenarys, Davis lands more points than Stannis, oddly enough.
 

Mauler

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Dude hawe you ever watched Apocalipse Now or AmC's Walking dead or other depressing movies/shows... I feel sorry for you but cant blame for giving up and ending ewreything in a fan-fictional way in your minds... Thats what i did when got to original ME3 ending... Yeah...
 

Aikayai

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Don't have a problem with it from a story perspective, but I thought it was a bit too brutal for TV.