Game of Thrones - I give up

themyrmidon

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OT: Ramsay summed it up perfectly. "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." Quit, don't quit, it doesn't affect me. I personally think you should challenge yourself to get out of your comfort zone and find out what happens, seeing how you only got about a third of the way into the whole story.
 

freaper

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Apr 3, 2010
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Suave Charlie said:
Yeah, I hate it when entertainment invokes an emotional response.

...

I really do not understand why people are dropping the books or the show because bad things happen, it's a story of conspiracy and backstabbing and dragons, it'd be terrible if the good guys just won.
Agreed.

I felt really shit after watching the episode, but now I'm interested in where the remaining characters will go.

Also: Team Targaryan mo'fuckerz!!!
 

ArnRand

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thejboy88 said:
Okay, those of you who watch the series and know the book probably know what this is all about as it concerns the events of the most recent GOT episode, "The rains of Castamere".

Basically, I knew the ending was coming. I've known ever since season two, which was when I was really into the books. And it was the point in the books where, reading those events, made me so angry and so disgusted with the story, that I literally threw the book aside and never picked it up again. And to this day I've never returned to the books to find out what happened afterwards because I was so upset at the time.

The only reason I watched the show after that was because I held out hope that maybe they'd handle that part of the story in a way that didn't anger me as much as the book did. That was not the case. Once again, this story has made me feel terrible, and so, like with the books, I have decided to abandon the entire thing.

Now I am not saying that I think Game of Thrones is a bad show, far from it. The acting, the way the story is told, all of it is great. But as with all things, there is a line for me. A point that, if passed, forces me to turn away from such stories. And now, GOT has crossed that line.

Call me foolish if you wish. Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay. But I'm just like that. I want there to be a light at the end of the tunnel in stories like this. And after this, there is no light bright enough to possibly make this dark and bloody tunnel worth passing through.

I'm done with it.
So you got through
Eddard Stark (the most honorable, 'lightest' guy on the show) getting his head cut off by the littlet twat Joffrey

But you can't get through this? I didn't even like
Catelyn and Robb
that much. I much prefer Tyrion, Dany, Arya ect. Also, stick around just for the rest of Season three and you might find another wedding going much more to your liking!
 

Baldry

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So you're giving up on the series, way before the ending because you don't believe there will be a happy ending? You're kinda quitting a bit early aren't you? Not even giving it a chance to get better, granted G.r.r.M has gone on record saying the ending of it all will be bittersweet, but that doesn't mean there's no chance the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters, among others, won't get their comeuppance and in the end isn't revenge what life's all about.
 

Joseph Harrison

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Slycne said:
thejboy88 said:
turn out happy for the heroes
I think this is the core problem. The Starks, or anyone else that's initially presented favorably, are not heroes and that's much of the point of the whole series. It plays with your expectations and assumptions. Characters that you think are utter scum at the beginning slowly grow over time to where you're suddenly realizing that you're rooting for them.

This is why I find the Song of Ice and Fire series interesting, there's plenty of pure escapist, ba dum tish, fantasy out there. And I have and will continue to enjoy those as well, but it's nice to have a contrast to that.
But the thing is that the Starks haven't really done anything morally wrong, although their soldiers certainly have, and yet they are constantly being punished. The Starks have the King over as their guest and Brann is pushed out of a tower, Ned agrees to help his friend lead the Kingdom and he gets killed, Robb tries to avenge his father and him and his mother and his wife and his newborn baby and even his fucking pet wolf all get murdered. I understand that these happened because of something the Starks did wrong, Ned was too honorable and Robb married Talisa and beheaded Carstark guy, but it gets a bit annoying after a while, seeing the same group of people get shit on over and over again.

For me I did like the episode but I'm not sure if the Red Wedding actually helped the plot at all or if Martin was just trying to shock the audience and show off how "nobody is safe". I guess we'll just have to wait and see, or I guess just read the books but I think thats cheating.
 

Frotality

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game of thrones is fairly unique in its storytelling, and i get why a lot of people give up around that point, because as the closest thing to protagonists, you would figure the story is kind of pointless with them all gone, but i have enough faith in what martin's done so far to keep on with it despite feeling like the story just stabbed its tension to death with such a brutal display of of downer.

ive learned that with GoT, you arent supposed to get attached to any specific characters, and it keeps you in genuine suspense knowing that no one has plot armor, and reality ensues HARDCORE. i feel like a hardened badass just for watching that and choosing to stay with the series, and i cant say that about any other story.
 

talideon

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Nuxxy said:
I own and have read all the books (to date), but the nudity in the series also put me off. There was an episode in Season 1 where Littlefinger was talking with an 'agent' or something, while she was getting it on with another woman. It was silly. That's not how you would talk to someone seriously and definitely felt like titillation for the sake of it.
In that case, you're right to be irritated by it: it was a scene specifically put into the show for the sake of titillation, and wasn't in the books. There's a lot of scenes with pretty gratuitous sex and nudity, and in the books it actually services the plot.

I think HBO copped onto what a bad idea it was writing in extra fan service like that was; after all, they appear to have stopped doing it. If you do something, it has to serve a purpose, otherwise it should be cut because it's fat, and good TV needs to be lean.
 

MorganL4

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For me it is quite simple.... At the end of book one when Ned lost his head, I was shocked, and when I decided to continue on I told myself that this was not your usual "White knight wins all" piece of fantasy, and I have been prepared ever since, I had hoped that Grey Wind would live, but to no avail... Don't get me wrong, I was shocked at the red wedding, but I will keep going as long as Aryia and Danny are.
 

DementedSheep

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Well thats ok. It's just not kind of story then.
I don't know why you expected them to change that part. From what I've seen of the show it fairly faithful to the books (I'm quite far behind though) and the red wedding is a major plot point. I don't see how you could change that to be happy and keep the plot intact.
 

DEAD34345

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Joseph Harrison said:
Slycne said:
thejboy88 said:
turn out happy for the heroes
I think this is the core problem. The Starks, or anyone else that's initially presented favorably, are not heroes and that's much of the point of the whole series. It plays with your expectations and assumptions. Characters that you think are utter scum at the beginning slowly grow over time to where you're suddenly realizing that you're rooting for them.

This is why I find the Song of Ice and Fire series interesting, there's plenty of pure escapist, ba dum tish, fantasy out there. And I have and will continue to enjoy those as well, but it's nice to have a contrast to that.
But the thing is that the Starks haven't really done anything morally wrong, although their soldiers certainly have, and yet they are constantly being punished. The Starks have the King over as their guest and Brann is pushed out of a tower, Ned agrees to help his friend lead the Kingdom and he gets killed, Robb tries to avenge his father and him and his mother and his wife and his newborn baby and even his fucking pet wolf all get murdered. I understand that these happened because of something the Starks did wrong, Ned was too honorable and Robb married Talisa and beheaded Carstark guy, but it gets a bit annoying after a while, seeing the same group of people get shit on over and over again.

For me I did like the episode but I'm not sure if the Red Wedding actually helped the plot at all or if Martin was just trying to shock the audience and show off how "nobody is safe". I guess we'll just have to wait and see, or I guess just read the books but I think thats cheating.
Ned Stark was morally abhorrent and just plain stupid if you ask me, he pretty much got what was coming to him. He lead the realm into a giant multi-way war, killing god knows how many thousands (most of which probably don't even give a damn about the iron throne), all in the name of his own precious honor. He sabotaged any chance of peace Westeros could have had by supporting the weakest claimant, and then went and sabotaged himself by literally walking up to his main enemy and telling her his plans.

Robb on the other hand was just dumb. He knew he needed an alliance with the Freys at any cost, and he also knew Walder Frey would side with whoever game him the better deal. His plan? Betray Frey at the first possible opportunity and then walk into his home unarmed.

I'd have been disappointed if they hadn't died, frankly. It would have flown in the face of everything ASOIAF is about. Being good doesn't get you killed. Being evil doesn't get you killed. Being stupid on the other hand, certainly will.
 

Angnor

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Slycne said:
thejboy88 said:
turn out happy for the heroes
I think this is the core problem. The Starks, or anyone else that's initially presented favorably, are not heroes and that's much of the point of the whole series. It plays with your expectations and assumptions. Characters that you think are utter scum at the beginning slowly grow over time to where you're suddenly realizing that you're rooting for them.

This is why I find the Song of Ice and Fire series interesting, there's plenty of pure escapist, ba dum tish, fantasy out there. And I have and will continue to enjoy those as well, but it's nice to have a contrast to that.
Heartily agreed. The assumption that any of the characters are heroes is so very dangerous. Good people? Certainly. But not the hero of the story. I'm also consistently baffled by those who are shocked at the horror and tragedy at this point. What did people think was going to happen? Did they all collectively edit Ned's death from the first season out? Theon's betrayals?

In the end there may be heroes, (I think there will be but who knows...) but even if there are, Rob Stark was certainly not one of them. Perhaps it was just more evident in the books than the show, but while I'm up to date on the books I'm a season behind the TV episodes...
 

Dr. Cakey

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thejboy88 said:
Now I am not saying that I think Game of Thrones is a bad show, far from it. The acting, the way the story is told, all of it is great. But as with all things, there is a line for me. A point that, if passed, forces me to turn away from such stories. And now, GOT has crossed that line.

Call me foolish if you wish. Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay. But I'm just like that. I want there to be a light at the end of the tunnel in stories like this. And after this, there is no light bright enough to possibly make this dark and bloody tunnel worth passing through.
This, I think, is where you've lost most of us. You seem to be looking for something very specific out of your stories. I'm different. I have only two criteria: I want a story that 1) does not bore me, and 2) does not annoy me. Beyond that, anything and everything is permissible, and I think most people here feel the same way.
 

grey_space

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Apr 16, 2012
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chimpzy said:
lSHaDoW-FoXl said:
I wonder how many animals were skinned alive to provide for the fur used in that show. Entertainment > Life
No animals were harmed. It's all made from human scalps.


Oh what a relief! relief > entertainment > life.
 

Sigma Castell

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Jesus fucking Christ what were you expecting? that because you didn't like the books, the Red Wedding would magically not happen because the pretty-boy 'hero' dies in it? Robb and Ned Stark are fucking idiots. Plus, the Red Wedding is important for other characters development, such as Arya. No-one ever gets a happy ending in GoT. If you've been watching it up to this episode I fail to see how you could expect anything but exactly what happened.
 

Call me Baz

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I can't wait for books 6/7 to come out where it turns out Jon Snow is the REAL Azai thingumajugga, and he finds Bran as a fully fledged sage and they revive their family and live in the Basilisk Isles after good old Dany has taken her throne with her Husband Tyrion.

And Joffery is brought back to life every day, to die in new and horrific ways each time.

Edit: I fail at plurals
 

Woodsey

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Joseph Harrison said:
For me I did like the episode but I'm not sure if the Red Wedding actually helped the plot at all or if Martin was just trying to shock the audience and show off how "nobody is safe". I guess we'll just have to wait and see, or I guess just read the books but I think thats cheating.
Even if you take it as a message of "nobody is safe", it still demonstrates that they're not safe because they're making stupid decisions, which the Starks did. Or at the very least, naive decisions. What's interesting is that it's possibly only due to the fact that they make naive decisions that they can be called the good guys. If they were looking out for their own skin as much as everyone else they'd have to match their ruthlessness.

lSHaDoW-FoXl said:
I wonder how many animals were skinned alive to provide for the fur used in that show. Entertainment > Life
 

smartalec

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Lunncal said:
Ned Stark was morally abhorrent and just plain stupid if you ask me, he pretty much got what was coming to him. He lead the realm into a giant multi-way war, killing god knows how many thousands (most of which probably don't even give a damn about the iron throne), all in the name of his own precious honor.
Hm. Not sure about this one. Aerys II went completely crazy-paranoid, started executing mostly-innocent people without trial in cruel ways, and showed every sign of getting worse. He managed to unite three of the great noble houses - Baratheon, Stark and Tully - against him. Even the Lannisters fought against him in the end. Ned was the leader of the Baratheon army's vanguard, not the rebellion overall.

Regardless of anything else Ned has done throughout his life, everyone in the series (with the exception of the surviving Targaryens, Viserys and Daenerys) seems to agree that deposing the Mad King was one of those things that had to be done.

***

And yeah, the Red Wedding is a very grim case of reality asserting itself. A young, idealistic, honor-bound king is going to have exactly that kind of trouble against an older, richer, morally bankrupt and much more experienced statesman.
 

Yureina

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thejboy88 said:
That's your choice. But as someone who knows where this story is heading, I can tell you with certainty that the Red Wedding is the darkest chapter of the entire series thus far up to the end of the last released book (A Dance With Dragons). Nothing after it is anywhere near as horrible.

I won't spoil any plot details here, but I am going to say a few words that, perhaps, might make you reconsider your opinion:

The Red Wedding is, without question, a game-changing moment in the series. It ends the North's war for independence and effectively ends the War of Five Kings as a total Lannister victory. However, the Freys breaking of the guest right (protecting guests who come into your home) is among the most grievous crimes that can be committed in Westeros. It completely destroys their reputation, with opinions about the Freys ranging from antipathy at best to a murderous lust for vengeance at worst. Even those who benefited from the Red Wedding are disgusted by what they did. Also, Robb and his mother were not the only people to die: almost every noble house in the North loses somebody at the Red Wedding. But many lords did not attend the wedding, and those who lost close relatives are extremely unlikely to forget. As Wyman Manderly, the lord of White Harbor, puts it, "The North Remembers"

There are a number of characters who are deeply affected by this as well. Arya Stark was already a very grim person who had a personal hit-list of people she intended to kill before this. Jon Snow and Theon Greyjoy may not be able to do much from their current circumstances, but neither take the news at all well. Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) loved Catelyn for most of his life, and, as I am sure you know, this is a man who is more than capable of setting up plots that can bring death and ruin to others. Lastly, the Brotherhood Without Banners may have some rough edges, but it tries to fight for the common people and justice, and the Red Wedding is a serious enough crime for them to want to do something in response to it.

The Red Wedding seems like the end for the Starks. It may be the end of their independence and rule of the North, but they are not destroyed and it is a house still greatly revered in the North. The Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters see this as a great victory, and the short-sighted members of those houses will be quite pleased with themselves in its aftermath. But the sin of the Red Wedding is a deadly poison. The Freys gain land and titles, but they are now the most hated house in all of Westeros by both commoners and noble houses to the point that nobody will object if Freys themselves start being murdered. The Boltons gain the North, but they rule over houses that only follow them out of fear and would relish the chance to seek their own revenge. The Lannisters are the most powerful house in Westeros, but they have to walk an extremely fine line now because any association they are perceived as having with the Freys will make them just as big a target for murderous vigilantes. And their power is ultimately dependent upon one man: Tywin Lannister. None of his children, not even Tyrion, would be able to fill his shoes should Tywin himself die or fall from power. Even if he should live, the Lannister's wealth and large armies have been severely depleted by the war.

And there are still men and women out there who, although not directly affected by the Red Wedding, could end up proving to be the undoing of the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys. Stannis Baratheon may have lost most of his army and navy at the Battle of Blackwater, but he is not out of the game yet and he is just the sort of man who could make common cause with those who want Frey blood and an end to Joffrey's reign. The Tyrells have taken next to no damage from the war, and have plenty of ambitions of their own. The Greyjoys still occupy much of the North, have suffered very few losses, and have a deadly fleet of warships. The Arryns of the Vale, even if they are led by a batshit crazy lady (who just lost her sister) and her infant-like son, are completely untouched by the war - and Littlefinger is heading there. The Martells of Dorne are similarly untouched by the war, but they have an impressive army, strong ties to House Targaryen, and a deep hatred of the Lannisters ever since Princess Elia was murdered during Robert's Rebellion. Finally, as House Stark's star is falling, House Targaryen's under Daenerys is rising in the east, and this Queen who is fighting to liberate slaves probably would not need much convincing to also bring justice to the perpetrators of the Red Wedding.

Anyway... I know it's horrible and disgusting, but... try to give it a second chance (or perhaps third chance if Ned's death upset you this much as well). You may find that you won't regret it.

- More Freys die as a consequence of the Red Wedding than during the entire continent-wide civil war that has been raging up to this point.

- Justice might be lacking in Westeros, but ambition, desire for vengeance, and protecting loved ones certainly are not.

- Joffrey is too foolish and too cruel to die a natural death, especially if those who benefit from his rule realize they can do without him and be fine.

- Tywin may be a political mastermind, but he is also somewhat old. If he dies, Tyrion has been sidelined too much to be able to replace him right away, Jaime actively avoids responsibility, and Cersei is a fiercely ambitious fool who alienates her own allies.

- Northern Lords, most of all Wyman Manderly, are not above bending the knee now and waiting for their moment to strike.

- Inigo Monto- err, I mean Oberyn Martell, aka the Red Viper, will be arriving in King's Landing in Season 4. An extremely deadly warrior with an infamous reputation for using poisoned weapons. He was also very close with his sister, the slain Princess Elia.

- The Iron Bank of Braavos, mentioned by Tyrion in Episode 3 as a power he is seriously concerned about, owns much of the Iron Throne's debt and have significant stakes all over Westeros. Should the Iron Throne fail to pay them back, the Iron Bank has a reputation for funding rebels to overthrow rulers in order to put someone else in power who will repay them. They could also effectively crash Westeros' entire economy by calling in debts and refusing further loans.

*waves*
- Rei