Game of Thrones - I give up

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
Vigormortis said:
Well, it may not fit into your definition of grim-dark, but it's a major selling point of the franchise.
Well, I'm suggesting it shouldn't fit into anyone's definition of grim-dark, unless we want that word to suffer from definition creep and eventually become meaningless.

The major selling point of the franchise, I was always given to understand, was the strong writing and world building, coupled with what was then an atypical subversion of a number of deeply entrenched genre tropes. When measured against a lot of the young writers who have sprung up in his stead, Martin doesn't appear particularly "dark" or "gritty". It's his fussy attention to excessive detail that is setting him apart at this stage, if anything.

I do realize your primary point here is that people condemn "grimness" with one hand whilst praising it with the other, but people will forever have whimsical tastes when it comes to their media. There's no accounting for the many reasons why a particular piece of entertainment may resonate...or fail to resonate...with a particular individual. While it can be galling to listen to people criticize something you enjoyed by attacking what you perceive as its merits, policing the tastes of others is an exercise in futility. And attempting to stop people from policing your tastes is equally thankless. Just shrug it off.

lapan said:
He seems to kill of the most interesting characters though and keep the uninteresting characters around for ages.
Can you give me an example of some of the many interesting characters he's killed?
 

crazyarms33

New member
Nov 24, 2011
381
0
0
I started reading the series yesterday, got 500 pages in and realized I just don't care. Too many freaking characters, the ones I like are already doomed, the assholes win out and that's ok with some people but not with me. I like characters who stand for a greater good, for lack of better terms, and they are all getting killed off. Further I dislike all the conspiracy within a conspiracy within a conspiracy nonsense. Just fucking make it happen already. I dropped it because after 500 pages I literally have no idea what half the book is about and I sensed no real overriding threat. Is it a bad book? Probably not, although it isn't to my taste.

As for the nudity issue, I agree that it adds nothing to the show. I don't like it, not because I don't appreciate a good chest, but because its almost like some 12 year old is directing it. Can nudity be done correctly? Sure can. Does Game of Thrones do it well? Not in my opinion. Same issue I had with Spartacus. Love all the boobies floating around, but damn if after a while it got old. We get it, she's a hoe. Just let it end at that.
 

Racecarlock

New member
Jul 10, 2010
2,497
0
0
thejboy88 said:
Okay, those of you who watch the series and know the book probably know what this is all about as it concerns the events of the most recent GOT episode, "The rains of Castamere".

Basically, I knew the ending was coming. I've known ever since season two, which was when I was really into the books. And it was the point in the books where, reading those events, made me so angry and so disgusted with the story, that I literally threw the book aside and never picked it up again. And to this day I've never returned to the books to find out what happened afterwards because I was so upset at the time.

The only reason I watched the show after that was because I held out hope that maybe they'd handle that part of the story in a way that didn't anger me as much as the book did. That was not the case. Once again, this story has made me feel terrible, and so, like with the books, I have decided to abandon the entire thing.

Now I am not saying that I think Game of Thrones is a bad show, far from it. The acting, the way the story is told, all of it is great. But as with all things, there is a line for me. A point that, if passed, forces me to turn away from such stories. And now, GOT has crossed that line.

Call me foolish if you wish. Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay. But I'm just like that. I want there to be a light at the end of the tunnel in stories like this. And after this, there is no light bright enough to possibly make this dark and bloody tunnel worth passing through.

I'm done with it.
I never watched the show because I don't have HBO and TV has taken a backseat to watching MP4 files on my xbox anyways. Your reasons sound legitimate. All you need to worry about are any crazy fans that happen to be around.
 

Stu35

New member
Aug 1, 2011
594
0
0
The_Echo said:
thejboy88 said:
Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay.
There are no heroes in Game of Thrones.
This.

(Except for Daenerys because she's the best.)
Not this. She's an annoying Teenage girl. An admittedly well written annoying teenage girl (disturbing, given Martins age), but an annoying teenager none the less.


That plot thread met its end because it 1) wasn't going anywhere and 2) will serve to heighten tensions and emotional drives in other characters. It was for the betterment of the narrative that it turned out the way it did.
Also this.


As for not liking a show because "the heroes" - People are entitled to like things and dislike them for whatever reasons they choose, I kinda like the fact that no characters are above being killed in GoT, but, as said above - I don't even see there as being any "heroes" -

Whilst The Starks are presented in the TV series as the obvious "good guys" and the Lannisters are painted as the obvious "Bad Guys" probably as a result of Hollywood requiring "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" - I suppose the books kinda start that way, but Tywin isn't neccesarily 'evil', he's just doing his job forwarding his house. Jamie shags his own sister, is hotheaded and doesn't think things through, but he's not a bad guy, shown as he begins to redeem himself with Brienne - Really only Cersei and Joffrey are truly evil, and even that just highlights that the rest of their family are actually not evil - protecting your family, regardless of their flaws, isn't generally considered a bad trait.


Personally? My heroes, the ones I truly want to 'win' (if indeed there is a winner in this whole thing - Stannis Baratheon. Between him and Danarys (and possibly the young Aegon), I'd support his claim to the throne - If you see the Targaryens as the rightful monarchs then fine, but personally I think they surrendered that right when they were defeated by Roberts armies, so the Baratheons are the rightful rulers - And Stannis is first in line. Also, I like Stannis far more than the irritating 16 year old girl who serves as an alternative. I am interested to see where this whole 'Aegon' thing goes though.
 

teebeeohh

New member
Jun 17, 2009
2,896
0
0
I didn't like the red wedding in the show because with the way they changed his marriage it changes the reason for the red wedding happening from "the starks and their stupid honor" to "teenager wanted to get his dick wet". The starks are also not really heroes, they are just less devious and thus really have no place in westeros politics. And aria still lives so who the fuck cares about rob and lady "let's release our only insurance on the off chance I get my stupidly naive daughter back"
I also feel terrible because I didn't warn my sister that this episode would end on a massacre and she watched it before going to bad and had terrible nightmares.

Edit:Why do people keep saying "the starks got killed?" Exactly two starks died, everyone else is still alive and further, we didn't even see the truly gruesome and despicable shit(the abortion not included) because that happens after everyone is dead.
 

Trueflame

New member
Apr 16, 2013
111
0
0
Whatever gave anyone the impression that Robb was the hero? Sure, he was in the right place at the right time, sure he won some battles and did some badass things... But neither the book nor the show were ever really about him. Hell, in the book he isn't even a PoV character, so despite his importance to the plot it can be argued that he is a secondary character!

My advice, to anyone unhappy with the way things have turned, is to stick with it. Vengeance is coming, and it will be beautiful.
 

HannesPascal

New member
Mar 1, 2008
224
0
0
Yeah a bit after the red wedding I got the Darkness induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy] a bit after the red wedding and stopped caring about the characters because they'll die or bad and only bad things will happen to them.
At least Catelyn died in the red wedding (although she was worse in the books).
And she is brought back to life taking away the only good thing about the red wedding.
 

AlbertoDeSanta

New member
Sep 19, 2012
298
0
0
Whilst I respect, and understand, your opinion, I'm inclined to disagree. I found it a remarkably well done scene. And all I can really say as to the whole 'bleak tunnel' is that I love it. It's something that doesn't WANT a happy ending, and I'm all for it. So many stories portray good prevailing over evil, whereas GoT has no discernible good or Evil; everyone has made really stupid/questionable choices that lead them to what occurs (Robb Stark and Catelynn Stark being the two most recent victims of this). IT's a show in which the characters bring about their own demise/misfortunes, and that's why I love it.
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

RIP Eleuthera, I will miss you
Nov 9, 2010
2,980
0
0
It's the shock and awe factor which makes you read on! You keep with it to find out happens to the people who did it! To read of the justice... to hate the 'bad guys' even more and because, hell, it's great story telling! So much better than 'good v bad, good wins, the end.'
 

fieryshadowcard

New member
May 18, 2011
109
0
0
Joseph Harrison said:
But the thing is that the Starks haven't really done anything morally wrong, although their soldiers certainly have, and yet they are constantly being punished. The Starks have the King over as their guest and Brann is pushed out of a tower, Ned agrees to help his friend lead the Kingdom and he gets killed, Robb tries to avenge his father and him and his mother and his wife and his newborn baby and even his fucking pet wolf all get murdered. I understand that these happened because of something the Starks did wrong, Ned was too honorable and Robb married Talisa and beheaded Carstark guy, but it gets a bit annoying after a while, seeing the same group of people get shit on over and over again.

For me I did like the episode but I'm not sure if the Red Wedding actually helped the plot at all or if Martin was just trying to shock the audience and show off how "nobody is safe". I guess we'll just have to wait and see, or I guess just read the books but I think thats cheating.
I'd have to disagree. A lot of Ned Stark's actions have a profoundly moral weight to them that does not quite favor him. His sense of honor led him to a great deal of inaction that, while admirable in the right situations, was often misplaced in the wrong ones and ultimately led to his untimely death. Imagine what would have happened if, after Robert's death, Ned had taken the advice of people such as Littlefinger or Renly and claimed the throne as king regent. There would have been far less grounds for a war (it would basically have been Stark versus Lannister and the Seven Kingdoms versus The Free Folk versus Mother of Dragons, not Stark versus Lannister versus Baratheon versus Baratheon versus Greyjoy versus Rayder versus Mother of Dragons) the people of King's Landing would not have starved to the point of rioting, a large amount of Robert's bastards would not have been killed, an open ear would have been available to the Night's Watch, and so on and so forth.

In short, yes it was downright stellar of him not to advocate the killing of a little girl on the other side of the world, but what about condemning an entire nation to what happened next? The Brotherhood Without Banners came into existence for a reason.

I mean, c'mon. His grand plan even if he had managed to come out of those bad decisions unscathed was "Give the Seven Kingdoms to Stannis!" I like Stannis's character a lot, but as many have said before, I wouldn't want him ruling anything.

The Starks as a House have also wronged many of their bannermen through their strong sense of duty and nobility. It is a given that death is always a possibility when the banners are called, but the amount of people who have died because the Starks chose to take up arms, before, during AND after Ned Stark is staggering. As the saying goes, "The North Remembers." Ned was a hardworking and dutiful liege lord, but he wasn't all too smart, and his poor decisions cost many others before they cost him.

Robb had a duty to win the war as quickly as possible. His marriage to Talisa made a lot of his efforts before and after that union for naught. In the books, it was for honor; in the show, it was for love. Either way, his initial pact with the Freys could have turned the tide. If he had not beheaded Rickard Karstark, he would have had a leg to stand on. As King of the North, he had a duty to his people to bring victory as swiftly as possible, and he did not. That is a huge moral wrongness. His age, or his whims do not lessen that; he took the responsibility on, and so was obligated to see it through.

Catelyn sent his greatest trump card back to the enemy for her daughters, and did no one any favors in the process.

The Freys have been slighted one too many times, and they'd finally had it. We will also soon learn of the grievances of the Boltons, and that they, too have had a turbulent history with the Starks throughout the generations. None of this happened out of the blue. If it had, THAT would be shock value.

Many people have had to pay for the Stark family's decisions, and many innocent Starks have had to pay for the mistakes of some of their family members in response. It's karma. Just because their decisions weren't deliberate like other Houses does not make them morally sound. The Red Wedding was basically "a long time coming" of grievances against the Starks. Pretty much the only Stark concerned with the bigger picture who's even in a decent position right now is Jon Snow, who is the only decision-maker in that family who counts as being morally in the right despite getting pissed on all the time, and he will continue to get pissed on in the future, whether because he sees the truth that others don't, or just because people can't get past the name Snow.

I like the Starks, but I'm not about to pretend like they haven't had a decisive hand in all that's happened. Their near obliteration is also symbolic of a clash in perspectives. The North is one of the few remaining footholds of the First Men and their ties to the Bronze Age, for better or for worse, while the Andals of the South who ushered in the Steel Age continue to progress for better or for worse as well. The Andals once conquered all but the North, and much like the Children of the Forest, the time of the First Men, too, is fading. As the case has been for the Valyrians. As the case will be for the Andals.

And no, the Red Wedding was not a shock value thing. Instead of focusing on "What just happened in this storm of swords?" try considering the following question: "What happens once the dust settles and the crows begin their feast?" The major players are dwindling on all sides, and this means other people's time to step into the fray will soon arrive.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
thejboy88 said:
Call me foolish if you wish. Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay. But I'm just like that. I want there to be a light at the end of the tunnel in stories like this. And after this, there is no light bright enough to possibly make this dark and bloody tunnel worth passing through.

I'm done with it.
But for all we know, things might turn out happy for some of the "heroes": Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, Tyrion, Danaerys, Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Ygritte, Olenna Tyrell, Margaery Tyrell, Varys.... they are all still alive at this moment of the TV show. In fact, only one Stark kid died. And for all we know, fan favourite Khaleesi could sit on the Iron Throne in the end...

And who is a "hero" anyway? Someone like Ned or Robb Stark who always tries to do "the right thing", no matter the consequences? And boy, the consequences, they couldn't have been more dire for themselves and the people they claim to protect.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
6,651
0
0
Too bad that you gave up. This huge spoiler down there would probably make you very happy.

Joffrey and Tywin are next
 

Mckeown

New member
Jan 8, 2011
57
0
0
Personally, i found the whole mess to be a bit of a surprise, but ultimately my reaction to it was little beyond "a noble idiot getting killed? that's game of thrones, all right". (actually, i thought that lord Frey had been acting too nice before this, given his behavior during his appearance in season 1 and what Cat said about him in season 2, so this was as much an "ah..." moment as anything else)

i guess it also helps that Robb was my least favorite character. not that he was bad, he was just... outclassed when put next to guys like Tyrion, Arya, Jon and Daenerys. Bit miffed about Cat going, but hi ho, we've still got our other 5 heroes to lean on (the above and Brann)

still, i am rather curious to see how the north will handle this and how Brienne will react to hearing about Cat being dead. not to mention what Sandor and Arya are going to do as Sandor no longer has anyone to sell her to, but clearly means to protect her, given that he risked recognition by going in to retrieve Arya with nothing hiding who he was.
 

Combustion Kevin

New member
Nov 17, 2011
1,206
0
0
Mckeown said:
not to mention what Sandor and Arya are going to do as Sandor no longer has anyone to sell her to, but clearly means to protect her, given that he risked recognition by going in to retrieve Arya with nothing hiding who he was.
then again, would you fuck with the hound?
"oh look, it's the hound... if you guys saw nothing I didn't either." <.<
I'm really wondering what his deal is, I get that he is sick and tired of the lannisters and their politics but I don't now what he aims to do next.

I'm not even sure if he knows.
 

launchpadmcqwak

New member
Dec 6, 2011
449
0
0
thejboy88 said:
Okay, those of you who watch the series and know the book probably know what this is all about as it concerns the events of the most recent GOT episode, "The rains of Castamere".

Basically, I knew the ending was coming. I've known ever since season two, which was when I was really into the books. And it was the point in the books where, reading those events, made me so angry and so disgusted with the story, that I literally threw the book aside and never picked it up again. And to this day I've never returned to the books to find out what happened afterwards because I was so upset at the time.

The only reason I watched the show after that was because I held out hope that maybe they'd handle that part of the story in a way that didn't anger me as much as the book did. That was not the case. Once again, this story has made me feel terrible, and so, like with the books, I have decided to abandon the entire thing.

Now I am not saying that I think Game of Thrones is a bad show, far from it. The acting, the way the story is told, all of it is great. But as with all things, there is a line for me. A point that, if passed, forces me to turn away from such stories. And now, GOT has crossed that line.

Call me foolish if you wish. Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay. But I'm just like that. I want there to be a light at the end of the tunnel in stories like this. And after this, there is no light bright enough to possibly make this dark and bloody tunnel worth passing through.

I'm done with it.
You were literally half way through the story mate. and you shouldn't be mad at the show for being true to the books, because then no one is happy.

(also, a story of how many individuals having the world turn against them and then they have to find a new place in the world, is a lot more interesting than a badass wolf king killing the baddies.)
 

Wadders

New member
Aug 16, 2008
3,796
0
0
Combustion Kevin said:
Mckeown said:
not to mention what Sandor and Arya are going to do as Sandor no longer has anyone to sell her to, but clearly means to protect her, given that he risked recognition by going in to retrieve Arya with nothing hiding who he was.
then again, would you fuck with the hound?
"oh look, it's the hound... if you guys saw nothing I didn't either." <.<
I'm really wondering what his deal is, I get that he is sick and tired of the lannisters and their politics but I don't now what he aims to do next.

I'm not even sure if he knows.
He's pretty aimless. From what I remember of the books, he's tired of working as a knight (even though he isn't actually one) and once he has Arya in his captivity he sees a good opportunity to make some money, and then presumably bugger off somewhere where he can be left alone.

You're right though, in both the series and the books he appears to be making it up as he goes along.
 

launchpadmcqwak

New member
Dec 6, 2011
449
0
0
omega 616 said:
I was done with it from half way through season 1 episode 1.

I'm the kinda guy who hates nudity in stuff, 'cos I don't see the point. I feel it never adds anything to anything and I just end up sat there, blood flowing in the wrong direction so I can't concentrate on the story and it makes me feel awkward (and I live alone).

So when a dwarf (what is the PC term these days?) is getting a gob job, then a guy takes a women's see through dress off to see her naked, then walks outside with the see through dress back on I stopped watching.

If they released a none nude one I would watch that but I feel the only reason it's so big and popular is 'cos America has always been pro violence and quite anti nudity, so when a show comes on with violence and nudity you all go bonkers for it and while it's not the first it is the biggest.
It is popular because of that...and its a fucking fantastic story.
 

Subscriptism

New member
May 5, 2012
256
0
0
I'll probably get mod hammered for this but...

Man up princess. I was fucking furious when I read that chapter too, but grow a pair and stop being such a crybaby. The story yet to come is so rich and interesting and you're going to give up because GRRM hates plot armour? Your emotional fortitude must be exceptionally poor.
 

fieryshadowcard

New member
May 18, 2011
109
0
0
lapan said:
Soviet Heavy said:
I actually approve of the scene, in both book and tv series. Martin has a major problem. TOO MANY CHARACTERS. So I approve of cutting down the batch a bit, even if he does introduce two more for each he bumps off.
He seems to kill of the most interesting characters though and keep the uninteresting characters around for ages.

rcs619 said:
I'd have liked if he didn't resurrect Catelyn though. She and Sansa always were my least favorite Starks.
Under different circumstances, Catelyn would have been more fit to rule than Robb. A lot of Robb's downfall came because he didn't listen to his mother. Yes, she made one of the biggest mistakes in his entire campaign by freeing Jamie, but it has been suggested several times, even by the Blackfish, that Catelyn had quite the nose for politics, something her son sorely lacked. But keep in mind, in Westeros where women enjoy little and less political power more often than not, Catelyn is reduced to being virtually powerless with no say over the fates of her children. Her perspective is first and foremost that of a forlorn mother. Do not dismiss her as Lori from Walking Dead, who just wanted to do laundry.

Also, I actually quite like Sansa's arcs, particularly after she leaves King's Landing. Her being insufferable in the beginning was deliberate. She's a child with a child's outlooks on life which does her no good in the political sense. She then spends at least a year deprived of any real learning experiences until Littlefinger helps her escape, and now she has perhaps the best teacher available to her in this game of thrones. The Starks sorely needed a politician, and Sansa from the start with her interest in court politics and social queues was always the best fit for that. Robb, Ned, and Jon NEEDED a political mouthpiece; instead, they drove themselves into a corner with no allies to help them. In Jon's case, it was really his only choice, but the other two had plenty of choices. So yes, while Arya learing to kill is the cooler more overtly interesting storyline, there is quite a bit of merit and intrigue as far as where Sansa is going, especially once The Winds of Winter comes out.
 

EclipseoftheDarkSun

New member
Sep 11, 2009
230
0
0
I suppose the OP might have issues with the unsanitized issues in GoT (sex and death), because of Hollywood's obsession with the happy ending that's straight-jacketed cinema.