Game of Thrones: Who is the real villain?

Lil_Rimmy

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Joffrey?
I mean... he's a ... he's got blonde... no...
Nope, Joffrey is defiantly the villain.

(I say this is the vain hope that the villain loses in a very painful and extravagant way. And the sooner the better.)
 

Angelous Wang

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Pigeon_Grenade said:
The Real Villain is death, and maybe winter, but mostly death
Indirectly correct.

The main villain is "The Great Other" the God of Death, Cold and Darkness. The antithesis to R'hollor the God of Life, Fire and Light.

In the religion of R'hollor they don't see him as a God though, they see him as the Devil (and have such banned the use of his real name because he have one which we do not know).

The White Walkers/Others are his servants (the actual ones who have ice skin and command the Zombies, not the zombies themselves though they call zombies that too) much like Red Priests serve R'hollor.

Their goal is simple to kill everything alive everywhere and then cover the world in ice, so that The Great Other will have control of everything and be the only God left in the world.
 

Eamar

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Angelous Wang said:
The main villain is "The Great Other" the God of Death, Cold and Darkness. The antithesis to R'hollor the God of Life, Fire and Light.
Personally, I have a really hard time believing it's going to end up being that simple. The fact that I have really deep misgivings about R'hllor doesn't help, I suppose, but even without that I think there's a lot more to The Great Other (if he even exists)/The Others than we know at the moment, and it's probably tied up with Bran's storyline somehow. Cold Hands in particular intrigues me and is what started to make me rethink the Others, but I haven't a clue what the truth might be.

I'm not saying the Others are going to turn out to be the good guys or anything, I just don't think the R'hllor/Great Other situation is as clear cut as we're being led to believe.
 

Angelous Wang

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Eamar said:
and it's probably tied up with Bran's storyline somehow.
Oh Bran is for sure a major player in the The Others story, his powers (well all the Starks powers) are said come from a "Child of Forest" who kidnapped a Bran "the builder"'s daughter and impregnated her, her child then became the Lord after Bran's death and all the Starks are descended from him since.

And the Children of Forest were fighting The Others long before the first men ever stepped foot on Westeros.

Which why I also don't think R'hllor is in control of The Others because there was no interaction prior to men showing up in Westeros. R'hllor originated in the east (possibly in Valyra, I wouldn't be surprised to find the Dragon people worshipped a fire God).

The Others just seems to make sense to me serving the Great Other, because all they do is kill and spread winter and he is supposed to be the embodiment of that. And R'hllor (as far as we know) came up with the Great Other prior to even learning about The Others on Westeros, in fact the Red Priests don't seem to know hardly anything about them.

Though there is nothing to say R'hllor is not as bad as the Great Other, he might have even responsible for the whole Valyra magically going to shit thing if the religion did start there.

The Great Other may want to freeze the world and R'hllor might want to set it on fire. And supports their whole opposite thing, R'hllor pretends to be a good god, deceives everyone and kills them behind their backs, The Great Other on the other hand just sends out an undead army to blatantly slaughter everyone.

R'hllor and The Great Other might have some kind of Constantine like bet going (well not quite), who ever kills the most souls wins all of them.
 

Eamar

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Angelous Wang said:
Not much I can really say to that other than I very much like this post and shall adopt elements of it into my own theories. Thanks :)

I wonder to what extent we'll ever actually "see" the various gods or truly understand their plans. I'm pretty sure GRRM said he didn't plan on even confirming or denying the existence of specific deities and it was all going to be left up to us to decide, but equally the gods do seem to be becoming increasingly prominent and GRRM is known for changing stuff as he goes along, so... who knows?

Got any theories about Jaqen/The Faceless Men? They're the major gap in my whole "thinking I have some clue what's going on" thing :p
 

Kasawd

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There isn't a real villain in the definite kind of sense. Every house has their own political motivations they work toward and things get tangled quickly. Of course, one could make a case for some of the small council, but, even when examining their aims, it's not very different from the other major players.
 
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Well I never like Catelyn Stark, personally, so I'm gonna go with her. Insufferable hypocrite that she is.

But in the grand scheme of things, it seems all the earthly conflicts are irrelevant and that eventually it will come down to the forces of light and fire against the forces of dark and ice (why, its almost as if the saga's name is trying to tell us something). And as the forces of ice are quite happy to murder their way through...everyone and everything really, I'm going to have to say they're the villains.
 

RedDeadFred

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Genocidicles said:
Book spoilers:

The White Walkers seem to be the biggest threat for the world, but among the noble houses I would say it's Littlefinger.

He's almost singlehandedly responsible for everything that's gone down: The Murder of Jon Arryn, Catelyn's mistrust of the Lannisters, the betrayal of Ned Stark, the Tyrell/Lannister Alliance and while he isn't 100% responsible for the war of the five kings, he used it to maneuver himself to becoming one of the most powerful lords in the realm, and he's not stopping there. So I mean if it's anyone, It's probably him.
This. While the White Walkers are the only beings who seems truly evil (everyone else is really just fulfilling their own personal agenda with some doing more vile things than others), Little Finger is responsible for a lot more chaos and death than people realize. If anyone wants to get an in depth idea on the magnitude of Little Finger's plotting and success, I recommend you read this gigantic post (it's a freaking essay) that covers pretty much everything Little Finger is involved in: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/51015-the-mad-genius-of-petyr-baelish
Edit: Just realized I messed up the quote. Should be okay now....
 

Silvanus

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Angelous Wang said:
Indirectly correct.

The main villain is "The Great Other" the God of Death, Cold and Darkness. The antithesis to R'hollor the God of Life, Fire and Light.

In the religion of R'hollor they don't see him as a God though, they see him as the Devil (and have such banned the use of his real name because he have one which we do not know).

The White Walkers/Others are his servants (the actual ones who have ice skin and command the Zombies, not the zombies themselves though they call zombies that too) much like Red Priests serve R'hollor.

Their goal is simple to kill everything alive everywhere and then cover the world in ice, so that The Great Other will have control of everything and be the only God left in the world.
Ooh, very arguable, that. I personally don't even believe the Great Other exists, as I have yet to see any compelling evidence.

There seems to be some kind of power behind the R'hllor worshippers (though I'm far from convinced that it's benign, or even non-human), but I'm very suspicious of whether a Great Other exists at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the G.O. was just a metaphor for the Others as a species; a symbol the fire-lovers use, but not a real entity.

SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
The bit when he makes Theon eat out "Arya" to get her wet so he can fuck her. What the fuck man. Then afterwards he threatens to cut off his lips. Ramsay is such an evil piece of shit, I hope the letter was a lie and Stannis fucked him up.
Aye. For about half of ADWD, I was restlessly waiting for the Battle in the Ice to commence. Then I was almost finished... then the book ended. No battle, but a small note from GRRM online that he had intended to fit it into that book, and that I would have to wait until TWoW! :mad: The Battle in the Ice is the one thing I'm looking forward to/ anticipating more than anything else.
 

gorfias

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Genocidicles said:
I would say it's Littlefinger.
I just listened to one of the final chapters of book 3 and I'm pretty freaked out by the mind schtup he gave poor Sansa Stark. The dude is definitely bad news.
 

Shadowkire

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TaboriHK said:
BloatedGuppy said:
TaboriHK said:
The Starks are the villians of the series. With the exception of Ned and Arya, all of them act to destabilize the realm with their selfishness. Robb is by far the worst, especially when he meets his wife. Everything about their decisions work fine in a perfect fantasy world, which is not what they inhabit. How many people die as a direct result of the Stark family?
I'm aware you are being facetious, but Robb's motivations for marrying Talissa/Jeyne were very different in-book than on-screen. Blame the idiots at HBO for that particular swap.
I'm not being facetious. I never read the books but on the show, the Starks are the cause, either directly or indirectly, of many of the deaths in the universe. Including their own in pretty much every case.
The Lannisters are worse: BOOK SPOILERS
1. The story begins with king Robert Baratheon going north to recruit his old friend Ned Stark to be the new hand after Jon Arryn dies at the hands of Cersei Lannister.
2. Then Bran Stark gets knocked off the old tower by Jaime Lannister.
3. Then an assassin is sent to kill Bran Stark by Joffery "100%" Lannister *SURPRISE*

These events lead to Catelyn Stark kidnapping Tyrion because she got bad info from a childhood friend.

4. Then King Robert dies, maybe because the Lannisters where giving him extra-strong alcohol with the hope that it will make him mess up while out hunting.
5. Ned Stark tries to prevent a false heir(Joffery) from taking the throne, then makes a deal for his life that Joffery breaks by ordering his execution on the spot.
That is book 1 alone.

Other highlights from the books as well as the backstory:
6. Tywin Lannister wipes out 2 different families upon coming to power as lord of the west, the tales are immortalized in song.
7. Tywin also forces Tyrion to watch as around 50 guardsmen rape his wife then forces Tyrion to do it and then Forces Jaime to lie to Tryion about her being a whore
8. Tywin waits until the eleventh hour before jumping into the last war and slaughtering as many Targaryan heirs as he can.
9. The Lannisters make deals with the [can't remember the name of the REALLY large family] that results in the Red Wedding.
10. Joffery Lannister... do I even need to point out something? Can anyone remember an event concerning Joffery where he wasn't being a prick.
11. Cersei Lannister... do I even need to point out something? Can anyone remember an event concerning Cersei where she wasn't being a prick.

Jaime Lannister is simultaneously sworn to protect the king and not have sex(or was not having kids, can't remember the specifics) then he:
12. Kills the king
13. Has sex/kids
14. Has sex/kids with his sister
The worst part of it is that people are giving Jaime a pass on all the terrible crap he has done. The only thing he does to make up for any of it is realize that he is a terrible person and feel bad about some of it.
 

TaboriHK

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Shadowkire said:
TaboriHK said:
BloatedGuppy said:
TaboriHK said:
The Starks are the villians of the series. With the exception of Ned and Arya, all of them act to destabilize the realm with their selfishness. Robb is by far the worst, especially when he meets his wife. Everything about their decisions work fine in a perfect fantasy world, which is not what they inhabit. How many people die as a direct result of the Stark family?
I'm aware you are being facetious, but Robb's motivations for marrying Talissa/Jeyne were very different in-book than on-screen. Blame the idiots at HBO for that particular swap.
I'm not being facetious. I never read the books but on the show, the Starks are the cause, either directly or indirectly, of many of the deaths in the universe. Including their own in pretty much every case.
The Lannisters are worse: BOOK SPOILERS
1. The story begins with king Robert Baratheon going north to recruit his old friend Ned Stark to be the new hand after Jon Arryn dies at the hands of Cersei Lannister.
2. Then Bran Stark gets knocked off the old tower by Jaime Lannister.
3. Then an assassin is sent to kill Bran Stark by Joffery "100%" Lannister *SURPRISE*

These events lead to Catelyn Stark kidnapping Tyrion because she got bad info from a childhood friend.

4. Then King Robert dies, maybe because the Lannisters where giving him extra-strong alcohol with the hope that it will make him mess up while out hunting.
5. Ned Stark tries to prevent a false heir(Joffery) from taking the throne, then makes a deal for his life that Joffery breaks by ordering his execution on the spot.
That is book 1 alone.

Other highlights from the books as well as the backstory:
6. Tywin Lannister wipes out 2 different families upon coming to power as lord of the west, the tales are immortalized in song.
7. Tywin also forces Tyrion to watch as around 50 guardsmen rape his wife then forces Tyrion to do it and then Forces Jaime to lie to Tryion about her being a whore
8. Tywin waits until the eleventh hour before jumping into the last war and slaughtering as many Targaryan heirs as he can.
9. The Lannisters make deals with the [can't remember the name of the REALLY large family] that results in the Red Wedding.
10. Joffery Lannister... do I even need to point out something? Can anyone remember an event concerning Joffery where he wasn't being a prick.
11. Cersei Lannister... do I even need to point out something? Can anyone remember an event concerning Cersei where she wasn't being a prick.

Jaime Lannister is simultaneously sworn to protect the king and not have sex(or was not having kids, can't remember the specifics) then he:
12. Kills the king
13. Has sex/kids
14. Has sex/kids with his sister
The worst part of it is that people are giving Jaime a pass on all the terrible crap he has done. The only thing he does to make up for any of it is realize that he is a terrible person and feel bad about some of it.
This is all true, and this is all fair game in this universe. This isn't a pretty place, it's ugly. I'd take Tywin as a king over Robb in a heartbeat, precisely because he appreciates the stakes, and moves very deliberately to secure power. He isn't lying about his own nature or the universe he inhabits.

The Starks by contrast are never going to make the world the good place that they'd be a good fit in. As a consequence, they destabilize everything they touch. The Lannisters kill enemies. The Starks kill friends.
 

Seydaman

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My money is on the Others being the great big evil

I'd predict it becomes the major focus down the line, if the Watch gets any more eaten
 

JMac85

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There's still two more books to get through, what we know now may not be how it remains. We've already seen multiple characters go through cycles of damnation and redemption, no reason to assume that won't continue. For all we know Dany could end up going mad like her father Aerys or Ramsay of all people becomes some big damn hero. The thing about Game Of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire is there is no one protagonist or antagonist. There's a dozen stories going on all at the same time, branching off and weaving back into each other.
 

Soviet Steve

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Gorfias said:
Genocidicles said:
I would say it's Littlefinger.
I just listened to one of the final chapters of book 3 and I'm pretty freaked out by the mind schtup he gave poor Sansa Stark. The dude is definitely bad news.
Predictably I'd say it's the nobility for getting the general populace killed off in pointless wars all the time, though I'd have to admit that ice zambies seem worse.
 

gorfias

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Soviet Steve said:
Gorfias said:
Genocidicles said:
I would say it's Littlefinger.
I just listened to one of the final chapters of book 3 and I'm pretty freaked out by the mind schtup he gave poor Sansa Stark. The dude is definitely bad news.
Predictably I'd say it's the nobility for getting the general populace killed off in pointless wars all the time, though I'd have to admit that ice zambies seem worse.
Melisandra did say that the oncoming danger makes the War of 5 Kings meaningless by comparison. I think she was speaking of the White Walkers, though, she may have been speaking of an invasion by the wildings.
JMac85 said:
There's still two more books to get through, what we know now may not be how it remains. We've already seen multiple characters go through cycles of damnation and redemption, no reason to assume that won't continue. For all we know Dany could end up going mad like her father Aerys or Ramsay of all people becomes some big damn hero. The thing about Game Of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire is there is no one protagonist or antagonist. There's a dozen stories going on all at the same time, branching off and weaving back into each other.
I do have problems with Dany. But after Littlefinger's recent game in book 3, I think he could shock us into seeing him as the penultimate villain of the series.
 

TristanBelmont

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One thing you'll find if you read the books, but not so much in the show, is that the world of ASOIAF is probably the most Gray-and-Gray morality place in all of fiction. There are clear evil people, such as Aerys and Gregor Clegane, but they're outnumbered by the ambiguous.
 

Soviet Steve

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Gorfias said:
Melisandra did say that the oncoming danger makes the War of 5 Kings meaningless by comparison. I think she was speaking of the White Walkers, though, she may have been speaking of an invasion by the wildings.
I'm not sure about the wildlings. They seem like they would be too disorganized to be a threat, and ice-zambies seem like you'd want everyone possible to fight against them. Speaking of wildlings their king was cesar, I need to go back and watch Rome again.