"Gamer Entitlement": Current state of gaming journalism and industry

mechalynx

Führer of the Sausage People
Mar 23, 2008
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Frybird said:
Mechalynx said:
Well to be fair, there is nothing particularly spectacular about the titles you mentioned. They are okay and from what I could see the sales give a pretty good reflection of their quality. As for Ensalved - I played and enjoyed the game a lot, but you can believe it was sometimes frustrating as hell to be unable to proceed because I couldn't find the exact spot the designer thought would be appropriate for a jump. I powered through, because I liked the story and wanted to see how it was resolved, but I can also understand how someone would be pissed off for not being able to jump over a gap because they were standing 2 inches to far to the left (yes, that actually happened to me a few times).

I got bored with Prince of Persia 30 minutes in, and that is the major complaint I've encountered so far. It's just not as fun as its predecessors. Mirror's Edge was recommended to me several times and is in my backlog, waiting for me to resurface from Guild Wars 2.

No idea about Rayman Origins though. Was the IP ever really that successful?

As for the industry having a difficult time sifting through forums for those gold nuggets of well-argued critisism, that is baloney as well. Any AAA title is backed by an excessive PR team. They have at any given moment enough people to analyze general public opinion and take stock of what the devs got right and what they got wrong. That is what they are frickin' there for. It is their job to then assemble some kind of report and present it to the devs. It is then up to the devs to respond to some of the critisism at their leisure.

Again, take BioWare as an example. Shortly after ME3 was released, as the Ending Debacle started brewing up a shitstorm on BSN, Jessica Merizan (who claims to have a degree in analysing human behavior) dropped by the Ending Sucks group and asked for feedback, promising a response. And then nothing from her. Apart from the lovely quip about not attaching yourself too much to the plot. Eventually Extended Cut came out and did some blatant retcon and nothing to do away with complaints of the magic Reapers off button. When people brought that up, there were but two answers:

1. Silence... or
2. Bitches, please. We know what we're doing and you do not. Now give us more money for our overpriced DLC.

Sifting through internet? BioWare scans what questions will be asked at cons and panels. You might guess which ones never make it through.

The negativity is no more predictable than how the publisher and the dev team will react when their games fail to sell millions of copies (Warfighter, anyone?).
 

Boogie Knight

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Oct 17, 2011
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There is something to fan entitlement, as fans tend to whine about any new installment which doesn't perfectly match their personal vision and/or fanfiction. And this being the internet, it's pretty easy to create a chain bark of bitching and moaning.

Yet, the way that some companies respond to fan critiques, even when based on reasonable and fair grievences, speaks to a mindset which holds the consumers in contempt. Then again, with the increased number of paid unlocks and other practices to get more money after the initial sale, it's safe to say that the consumers are held in contempt.

But of course, many of those same fans will keep buying and supporting the very things they condemn.

So... how about spending more time looking for and plugging games and companies which don't act like jerks towards the very people who support them? Am I oversimplifying? Did I spell that right?
 

Archer666

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May 27, 2011
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I like how the CVG twitter is calling people losers, while the PC version of DmC that runs on 60 fps is the best version of the game.

As a Devil May Cry fan I was knda upset that they decided to reboot the series. Then I was even more upset when Ninja Theory acted like children to old fans who were worried about the state of the game. And when GAMEZ JURNALIZM decided to ***** at me for having doubts, I...stopped giving a fuck.

Instead, I looked at game journalists acting like little children and had a laugh. Yeah you really took down the "Haters" by telling them they're somehow wrong to criticize something. This, the Mass Effect stuff, Ben Kuchera blowing up on Eric Kain on a minor topic is just prime time comedy material.
 

Mr. Omega

ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE!
Jul 1, 2010
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I love the double standard...
Not every fan is like the ones that send death threats and review-bomb on Metacritic. Stop lumping us all together!
ALL journalists are like the ones who throw around the word "entitled"! All journalists are corporate shills, ESPECIALLY the ones that disagree with me'

Admittedly, a problem in games journalism is that the line between "journalist" and "blogger who writes about news" is almost non-existent. But the thing is readers need to demand standards that aren't just "always agree with fans"! And seeing how this is the Internet, where dissenting opinion is swiftly disregarded in favor of the latest "Top 5 reasons fans are always always ALWAYS right" piece, we aren't going to get those better standards.
 

mechalynx

Führer of the Sausage People
Mar 23, 2008
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Boogie Knight said:
There is something to fan entitlement, as fans tend to whine about any new installment which doesn't perfectly match their personal vision and/or fanfiction. And this being the internet, it's pretty easy to create a chain bark of bitching and moaning.

Yet, the way that some companies respond to fan critiques, even when based on reasonable and fair grievences, speaks to a mindset which holds the consumers in contempt. Then again, with the increased number of paid unlocks and other practices to get more money after the initial sale, it's safe to say that the consumers are held in contempt.

But of course, many of those same fans will keep buying and supporting the very things they condemn.

So... how about spending more time looking for and plugging games and companies which don't act like jerks towards the very people who support them? Am I oversimplifying? Did I spell that right?
I'm so with you there. Nowadays, I treat a game company as I would a single person - based on previous experience, would I go out and have drinks with you or let you crash on my couch? No? Then we have nothing more to say to eachother.
 

RaikuFA

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Polite Sage said:
Is it because majority of DMC and ME fans are more childish than Deus Ex fans?
From what I've seen yes. All I've heard from DMC is "His hair's diffrent so it's bad."

ME: It took me months to find out why the ending was bad, all I got when I asked was "YOU DON'T GET IT!!! YOU'RE A BIODRONE CAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHY BAHWAHWAHWAHWAH!!!" Like if the ME fanbase is some secret Illuminati and the filthy outsiders aren't supposed to know why it's bad, lest the Great One in the sky become displeased.

Deus Ex: The biggest complaint I heard was the boss fights which PA described best.

Also the journalism complaint can be summed up in 4 words: Don't listen to Kotaku.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Sonic Doctor said:
Finally, I would say that there are gamers that feel/act entitled. I saw plenty of people saying that because they were "loyal" fans and paid EA/Bioware money for the past installments of ME that they should have gotten all the different endings that they wanted. The problem is that these people don't understand that because they bought past games means jack-crap. These people decided to buy a game because they were interested in it, that is it. That money did not buy them some kind of creative say/right to the franchise. If the creators want to take the franchise/story in a different direction and feel that they only have the time to make the game a certain way, then that is the way it is.
Bioware made their own bed to some extent with that. They talked at length about viewing the fans as co-authors of the games, and repeatedly made changes in direct response to fan input. Once you've opened that door, it's pretty hard to close. Bioware eventually found out to their displeasure that "co-authoring with your fans" is a lot of fun right up until the point where the fans disapprove of what you're doing. Then it becomes a fucking nightmare.

There's also the problem that the initial endings weren't just cryptic, annoying, and poorly written. There was a lot of slap-dash in them as well. A lot of continuity errors, a lot of copy paste, and a general pong of "we totally rushed this shit out the door, now buy DLC". Which was reinforced when the game literally ended with a text box that said BUY DLC.

These games are both artistic expression AND product. You cannot rightly just do whatever the hell you like, shove it out half-baked, and then recoil in surprise and alarm when the feedback is negative. One of the things gamers SHOULD feel entitled to is some basic levels of quality assurance. And that if a developer hypes a game by saying "We are going to do X, Y and Z", that they will deliver on those promises, and not pull a fast one at the 11th hour and then crouch behind the shield of artistic integrity.

It was just a big mess all around, really.
 

xPixelatedx

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Draech said:
xPixelatedx said:
-snip- for space
The problem is that the critique didn't show up before the those series were out.

It did with DmC.
...Maybe you should look up some history on Loonatics. It's seething hate came over a year before it's first airing. People were even making hate art of it, it was amazing.
 

Atlas13

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Jan 4, 2011
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Sonic Doctor said:
I for one would never change something I created because some group of people didn't like some of the things I came up with to add to my stories.
Well, technically it really wasn't his story, since the writers changed. In fact, the actual story written by the original writer was leaked, and I've seen a lot of fans say that they liked that a lot more than the one we got.
 

mirage202

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Mar 13, 2012
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I don't quite understand what the big deal is here. A AAA game flopped, not the first, wont be the last either, hell Capcom have had quite a few recently iirc.

Journos/Bloggers are just as childish and irresponsible as the rest of us, no shock there all being gamers at the base level, though I suppose the pedestal they think they stand on doesn't help matters and sure there is a good chance some of the more influential ones receive a supplementary paycheck from a publishers PR dept, but we knew that already. Of the rest most of those are just bloggers with an opinion, an opinion influenced by: See Below.

Fan hate, fan love. Has everybody forgotten fan is just shortened fanatic? Why are people surprised that fanatics spew hate and bile or cream their knickers at every snippet of information released? Of course so called fans are going to attempt to destroy something they dislike, or sing its praises at every opportunity and insult though who disagree, that is what being a zealot is all about.
 

GrimHeaper

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Draech said:
Olikar said:
Draech said:
So many "fans" dont just want to pay the ticket and get a show. They want an ego stroke along with their ticket. And when their ego stroke is denied they rage.
Really? I thought most fans just want a game that is good and lives up to their expectations, And they rage when shitty Devs like Ninja Theory take a dump all over the series they love and then tell the fans to go fuck themselves.
Are you going to argue that the complaining first happened when they had the game in hand? A game that is decent btw.

Because that is not an argument that you will win.
Decent is subjective how the company acted is not.
You don't give a group of people even MORE reason to hate you.
Believe it or not the salesman selling you the product effects how you can feel about said product.
 

GrimHeaper

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Draech said:
Polite Sage said:
Draech said:
So are you going to argue that this hate only showed up after people played the demo?

That is not an argument you will win.
Show me where is said that, please. I am aware that many people didn't like the new character model, and the hate was only fueled more by Ninja Theory's "deal with it" statements. What I'm saying that once people got to playing the demo, they were pretty fucking sure what kind of game it was going to be. If you've ever played a DMC title you can instantly say that the new DmC plays nothing like the old ones, without even touching on the quality, speed or difficulty.

As I said, I didn't follow the game's early stages and personally had no problem with the new design until all the other shit started showing up and yes, then I told other people to check out the demo first before shelling out money on a completely different game, despite the reviewers adamantly telling "also satisfies the old fans".
Ok so you are arguing that people wern't pretty trucking sure they didn't like it before the demo?

Another argument you wont win.
You do know some people changed their mind after the demo right?
 

gravian

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Sep 8, 2011
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It seems to me that the main issue is to be balanced between your own aspirations and what the fans want when creating or redeveloping a game or series. You need to take what the customers want into account while ensuring the game is not just based on the fans' ideas, pushing the series in a new direction but including the fans in that process so they feel like they're playing a meaningful part in the creation of something new by respecting and including successful elements of what has come before.

Both sides seem to be to blame in this; the fans for making a fuss about minor details and scaring off potential customers while not appreciating the good parts in a new installment from a series that eventually had to change, and Capcom from seemingly not including the fans enough in decision making and new information, and taking for granted that fans would automatically buy their game.

When it comes down to it, though, the fact that Devil May Cry hasn't sold well at all is symptomatic that something is wrong with the game generally, and is not limited to just fans over-reacting to new changes. Mass Effect 3, for instance, sold well despite all the furore about the ending and the mass boycotts because it was generally a good game and, once the fans had calmed down, was generally well-received. Sure, a lot of the customers were fans who just bought it for a sense of closure, but equally there were those who were buying into the series for the first time and did so despite all the bile-filled reviews that focused on the end, because they judged the game themselves on its own merits and found that most of it was OK.

Fan over-reaction to a new installment in a franchise, especially as over-the-top as this, would be expected to lower sales a bit, but this massive downgrading from 5m to about 1.2m seems to suggest a wider dissatisfaction from gamers. Yes, a lot of fans may not have liked some changes, but you'd still expect solid sales of copies. The fact there hasn't shows that something else is wrong.

Also, the saying "the customer is always right" still applies to an extent in video games. Attacking your potential audience for not buying your game is just stupid; in any other business, they would recognise that something had gone wrong, find where they can improve and promise their consumers to get it right next time, while offering incentives for the customers to purchase their flawed product e.g. discounts, deals, tie-ins with merchandise. Effectively saying that your customers just don't have good enough taste to appreciate your new product and blaming them is idiotic and just bad business practice; ultimately customers will vote with their wallets, and you need to persuade them to buy, not attack and blame them for failure when they don't.
 

Pandabearparade

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Frybird said:
If i were a Dev or a Pub, i wouldn't give two shits about about "Fans" outside of Testers and Professional Critics except MAYBE when it comes to creating a sequel for my game.
The problem is that testers and professional critics don't buy the games, the fans do.

I don't see what the big deal is. Ninja Theory and their pet reviewers are angry that the fans who told them they weren't happy with the direction the game was taking didn't buy the game? Maybe they should have listened. They had warning WELL in advance.
 

Grunt_Man11

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Sonic Doctor said:
Polite Sage said:
This is not exactly a new thing though; Mass Effect 3 had many fans riled up for various good reasons (such as plagiarism, cut out content sold as on disc DLC, using stock photos from the internet, lackluster visuals etc.) while the developers tried to downplay all controversy and openly insulted their fanbase in the process. Didn't like the game? You're just mad about the ending! And you hated Dragon Age 2? You're just a homophobe misogynist who doesn't like Hepler's writing because she is a woman!


Due to Bioware's horrible PR I decided to abstain from buying both of those games (and Bioware titles in future), though I didn't pay much attention to how stuff developed after that. I wasn't much a fan of their games in the first place despite enjoying both the original ME and DA so the controversy didn't manage to hold my interest and I thought that this was just one unfortunate case.
I will just touch on the Bioware stuff, since in that is the only thing I care about from what you discussed.

For the most part I agree with what David Gaider says in the spoiled Fans vs. Bioware bit.
The stuff that Aaryn Flynn said was out of order; he should never have said such things.
Stanley Woo, I agree with him too, especially the part about, "talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. etc. etc."

I feel one of the reasons that the game market seems stagnant in some areas, if not all, is that instead of trying to create their own thing from their ideas, game developers/creators have decided to, though sometimes forced to by publishers, cater to what the fans want and continue to try and do so and change each iteration of a game very little. For the most part the industry has become one that asks itself, "what will make the players/customers buy the game," instead of in the past when it was more like, "what will make this game cool, interesting, and feel new, we hope people like what we are doing, if they don't, we move on." The main arm of the industry has become less about creativity, and more about supposed customer "enjoyment".

What the industry needs to do is think about and nurture the creative minds it uses to create the games, instead of doting heavily on fans.

I have always felt that the main "fan" outcry about the end of the Mass Effect 3 was blown way out of proportion, and found the calls for refunds, petitions to change the game, and more to be quite silly. I for one would never change something I created because some group of people didn't like some of the things I came up with to add to my stories. I also for one have always believed that the creator of a story is the one that has the final say in what something means and why it is there in the story and if it should be there. If some people don't like it, tough cookies, they can move along to something else and let the people that are fine with it have their thing.

Finally, I would say that there are gamers that feel/act entitled. I saw plenty of people saying that because they were "loyal" fans and paid EA/Bioware money for the past installments of ME that they should have gotten all the different endings that they wanted. The problem is that these people don't understand that because they bought past games means jack-crap. These people decided to buy a game because they were interested in it, that is it. That money did not buy them some kind of creative say/right to the franchise. If the creators want to take the franchise/story in a different direction and feel that they only have the time to make the game a certain way, then that is the way it is.

(A bit off-topic, though it relates) It is similar to how some gamers think that because they are interested in buying a game, they think that they are entitled to test it out, that if the creator doesn't release a demo for the game, that it is okay to pirate the game to test it out to see if they want to purchase it. If there isn't a demo, then there are plenty of other ways to find out if a game is good.

Journalists and the gaming industry aren't wrong in saying some gamers are acting entitled and being "crybabies". They would only be wrong if they said that "all" gamers act entitled and are "crybabies".
And this is the reason, I believe, why Yahtzee and Moviebob could not stand by the Retake Mass Effect movement.

Was the movement right? That's irrelevant. They were opening a can of worms, or perhaps a Pandora's box with their actions.

I'm a bit of a prospective writer, and stuff like this terrifies me. Despite what the OP thinks, this is NOT a good thing. The creative should never be afraid to create. However, that is what is starting to happen.

Fear of fan backlash, fear of fan pressure, fear of fan petitions is starting to make creators afraid to move forward.

It scares me that I will be forced to change a story not out of personal dislike of the direction it is going, but out of fan pressure. I cringe at the prospect of receiving a petition from angry fanboys because I didn't "do the right shippage," or other such non-sense.

To those who say, "that will never happen," I respond with the following:

Just ask the creators of this reboot.

IP creators should not have to compromise beyond their business practices and models.

"But compromises make both sides happy." No, they don't. How do I know? If compromises made both sides happy, then people would have shut up about the Mass Effect 3 ending by now!

"You don't insult the customers." Wrong. You don't insult the good, rational customers. You kick the bad, irrational ones out of your establishment and tell them to never come back. Bad customers are bad for business.

I applaud Ninja Theory for having the guts to take on criticism. Instead of just taking it with pandering automated form letters. We need to see more criticisms of critics, be it game journalists or fans.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Rawne1980 said:
I find it amusing that some folk still think some of us hated ME3 and DMC for the ending of ME3 and changing pretty much everything in DMC.

It's not all that true.

There is a hell of a lot I didn't like about ME3 which i've gone into detail about a few times so will spare you my rantings. I didn't find it a "good game", it barely hit average for me and for the same reasons a few other people didn't like it.
Agreed.

There were a lot of issues I had with ME3 and the ending was merely the most glaring. If I'd felt that the rest of the game was amazing but only the ending was bad I probably would not have cared so much, but I felt there were only a couple of moments in the game that were above "meh" and so to have the ending being as bad as it was it just sank in the opinion "What the hell were they thinking?"

OT: I can get behind the argument that there is a lack of professionalism in many areas of the gaming industry. EA/Bioware and their marketing is a good example of that in regards to how before each of their game releases they use phrases like

?And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.?

and

Interviewer: ?So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise??
Hudson: ?Um? You know, at this point, I think we?re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.?

But as soon as the fans start complaining about certain features being included or left out suddenly it's "Excuse me? It's our game, we are the ones making it, we can do it how we like."

Which of course is true, game developers do not have to listen to fans demands, nor do they have to change their product to suit what some people want. But at the same time they shouldn't try pretending that they are avidly listening to fan demand and are "co-creating the game with the fans" when they clearly aren't. They just want the good publicity that comes with saying that they are.

That said, some of the demands Bioware fans make, we should be glad that they don't always listen...

BloatedGuppy said:
This sums up my point nicely.

Bioware chose to open the Pandora's box of claiming to be working with the fans, then tried to close it again when the fans were not happy with what they were making. A lot of the complaints made about Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 could have easily been countered if they hadn't gone on about how there'd be loads of choices and many different endings etc.

If they'd just kept their mouths shut they'd still be bad endings, but people wouldn't be able to (rightly) complain about misleading statements and lies, they'd be able to confidently reply "This is what we wanted the game to be like, it's a shame not everybody liked it, but we are pleased with what we made." Rather than trying to do that and having a dozen quotations pointing out that only a few months earlier they'd claimed that the game was completely different from the way they supposedly wanted it to be.