Games that penalize you for playing a certain way

PinkiePyro

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Unkillable Cat said:
RPG's tend to punish you for playing the evil routes. Its not quite as bad as it once was but the options can be along the lines of:

You have rescued the baby, do you?
Ensure the babies home environment is a beacon of virtue and return him to his family - receive a reward (good)
Give the child back, hint that you may want a bigger payment - Better reward sometimes (neutral)
EAT THE BABY - no reward (evil)
I wish I was a quest giver just so I could reward you for such an entertaing post




V da Mighty Taco said:
Skyrim punished mages and agility-centric melee fighters hardcore. Mages simply did not have the damage output or mana efficiency to be practical without abusing horribly broken exploits such as the Impact perk (literally makes any enemy in the game unable to ever fight back due to infinite stunlock) and / or making all spells free to cast via Enchanting. Melee fighters either had to be massive tanks or stealth kill everything, as those blasted cinematic finishing moves that enemies had would automatically trigger the exact moment you got in range of an attack and stopped blocking, regardless of if the attack would have actually hit you or not, causing the player to be literally locked in place and instakilled without being able to do anything about it. If you ever tried playing a Light Armor brawler without using Smithing or Enchanting, then you know what I mean. I literally bought the PC version of this game for the full $60 months after release entirely because of how much I wanted to mod that crap out of the game.
personally I prefer the game breaking stealth archery to anything else your attack radius so much bigger than that of the enemies its halarous and with the stealth you can often climb up on things like a statue or table that the NPCs will walk right past and not see you
 

FoolKiller

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Ghraf said:
LaughingAtlas said:
Payday 2 prefers that the player do all manner of different missions, enforcing XP deductions (Although I think this was lessened recently) if you did the missions you liked over and over, forgoing the less fun ones. (Go Bank, Election Day, Framing Frame, and Big Oil can all fuck right off, most of all those fuse box bits) I get trying to get people to branch out and do different things in all the jobs, but that probably shouldn't include the ones you fucking despise when all you want is to grind for the upper level abilities. (I'm lvl 97 and, as I'm not interested in Infamy, should never need to worry about XP again! :D)
I don't know how I forgot about the whole fucking Payday 2 Deathwish update debacle. They completely ruined the stealth gameplay with all the changes they made to most of the levels that were actually fun and satisfying to do stealithy. Like day 3 of Framing Frame, when you first start doing it, it can be incredibly difficult to take care of all the guards, cameras, and radios, but once you finally get it figured out and can run through it completely stealth with your friends all working together it was one of the most satisfying things I've ever done in a video game. Now they fucking added an extra guard in and changed the perks so there's no way to do it the same anymore. They basically want to force everyone to have to run through everything guns blazing and deal with the retarded new Bulldozers they added into the game. God forbid someone doesn't see their hard work that's meant to make the game incredibly difficult if you fuck up in the first place. It's a huge catch-22 of bullshit.
I'm with you folks on Payday 2. Its a game that punishes a lot of things. It really punishes people like me who like to play solo. And stealth. There is literally no way for me to stealth some of the stealth possible missions with the retards that are called teammates. They stand around not doing anything until shit hits the fan and then they just shoot. Why can't they carry a fucking bag? Why can't I take off my mask?

I also hated The Last of Us for forcing (bad) stealth on us. I love stealth but these two games just don't do it well.
 

Battenberg

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The_Blue_Rider said:
So, I made a mistake earlier today, one that I probably shouldnt have made but I did. I played a stealth build in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and recently got to the first boss. Wow, fuck me, that is a terribly designed boss fight. Ive heard the stories about this games bosses, and thought maybe it was exaggeration, but no, Im an idiot.
The rest of the game feels so good with stealth, im honestly shocked the first boss fight is just shoot guy in face until you win, its such a disservice to otherwise amazing game so far.

Any other stories of games that arent friendly to certain playstyles, at least for a section or two?
I saw this thread title and immediately thought of Deus Ex as well. In fact in my playthrough I was going for no kills so I only used non-lethal weapons on that first guy (Barrett?). It made no difference though, apparently tranquiliser darts kill augs instead of putting them to sleep -_-

Supposedly the whole stealthy boss fight thing was adjusted for in the director's cut although I've not actually played it.
 

Silverbeard

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The_Blue_Rider said:
So, I made a mistake earlier today, one that I probably shouldnt have made but I did. I played a stealth build in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and recently got to the first boss. Wow, fuck me, that is a terribly designed boss fight. Ive heard the stories about this games bosses, and thought maybe it was exaggeration, but no, Im an idiot.
The rest of the game feels so good with stealth, im honestly shocked the first boss fight is just shoot guy in face until you win, its such a disservice to otherwise amazing game so far.

Any other stories of games that arent friendly to certain playstyles, at least for a section or two?

Every point n' click adventure game ever.
If I don't play it in the exact manner that the developers envisioned, I will never get to take a forward step in their game. That means no run and gun if stealth is the path required and no stealth if dragging the sword onto the monster is the path required.
I'd say those examples have most others handily beat!
 

The_Blue_Rider

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Battenberg said:
The_Blue_Rider said:
So, I made a mistake earlier today, one that I probably shouldnt have made but I did. I played a stealth build in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and recently got to the first boss. Wow, fuck me, that is a terribly designed boss fight. Ive heard the stories about this games bosses, and thought maybe it was exaggeration, but no, Im an idiot.
The rest of the game feels so good with stealth, im honestly shocked the first boss fight is just shoot guy in face until you win, its such a disservice to otherwise amazing game so far.

Any other stories of games that arent friendly to certain playstyles, at least for a section or two?
I saw this thread title and immediately thought of Deus Ex as well. In fact in my playthrough I was going for no kills so I only used non-lethal weapons on that first guy (Barrett?). It made no difference though, apparently tranquiliser darts kill augs instead of putting them to sleep -_-

Supposedly the whole stealthy boss fight thing was adjusted for in the director's cut although I've not actually played it.
Im beating the bosses without too much trouble now, but it is pretty annoying wasting inventory space on lethal weapons that ill only use maybe 4 times in the entire game. Doubly annoying since im trying to get through the game knocking out the least possible people. My Jensen is a ghost, and the boss encounters just run counter intuitive to that :(
 

The White Hunter

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Dirty Hipsters said:
waj9876 said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
waj9876 said:
Weirdly, the devs of Dark Souls seem to hate anyone who isn't using the biggest sword they can find, the heaviest armor, best physical defense/stability shield, and putting all of their points into strength and such.
Not even true in the slightest. The easiest way to go through any of the souls games is to use magic or miracles. 90% of the enemies in the game are incredibly vulnerable to magic and lightning and you can attack from a distance without any fear of them fighting back. It almost turns it into a totally different (and not nearly as fun) game.
Until they completely nerfed magic.

And you can't really do that with a lot of bosses.
In Dark Souls 1? You absolutely can because I've done it. Running a magic build was significantly easier than any other build that I tried (though that probably has to do in part with the fact that I already knew all the ins and outs of the game by the time I did that build).
I always found light armour and a dagger to be the most expedient way through dark souls. Heavy armour and swords make for protracted encounters with more room to fuck up.

Much easier to just bash things in the face with a buckler and stab them in the arse for a quick kill I found.
 

emissary666

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Some people have already mentioned Hitman Absolution, but I feel I need to mention it. While, yes, it is a stealth game and it wants you to not go in guns blazing, the previous games still had that option, but docked you points at the end. Hitman Absolution, for some reason, decided to show you your score at all times. Suddenly, the game would punish you at the moment of your transgression instead of at the end. The entire game would feel much different if they simply kept the scoring at the end, even if they didn't change how you were scored. It's just harder to shoot everyone when you are constantly being shown a deductions to your score.
 

go-10

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every modern stealth game, they penalize you for killing enemies. WTF, why can't I kill my enemies if I do it stealthy? I get that most people enjoy playing through the game without being spotted and without killing a single enemy, but me personally I like never being spotted but taking out every single enemy I come across and in some games (Deus Ex, Metal Gear, Mark the Ninja) I like looking for all the enemies and taking them out before proceeding; assuming it's not an eternally spawning location

so yeah I hate games that don't let me play the way I want or give me a bad score because of it

same goes for some action games (Wonderful 101, Metal Gear Solid Rising Revengeance) are games that prohibit you attacking the enemy unless the game specifically says you can, and it's not in a clever way either like Zelda or Castlevania do it. The game literally says "press X now to attack" didn't do it when the game told you to, too bad you're going to have to wait till we tell you again
 

DoPo

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GZGoten said:
every modern stealth game, they penalize you for killing enemies. WTF, why can't I kill my enemies if I do it stealthy?
Erm, which, according to you, is more stealthy:
a) not leaving evidence
b) leaving evidence

Because I thought it's a), you seem to imply it's b)
 

go-10

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DoPo said:
GZGoten said:
every modern stealth game, they penalize you for killing enemies. WTF, why can't I kill my enemies if I do it stealthy?
Erm, which, according to you, is more stealthy:
a) not leaving evidence
b) leaving evidence

Because I thought it's a), you seem to imply it's b)
I'm not implying any, I just prefer b)
is it wrong that I choose to play a game differently from you? Why should all our experiences be the same?
In MGS and Mark the Ninja you can move and hide the bodies, so what does it matter if I choose to kill my enemies? Also this evidence matters little if by the enemy never sees it, because 9 out of 10 times I make it so that if the enemy discovers the "evidence" it's already too late for them
 

DoPo

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GZGoten said:
is it wrong that I choose to play a game differently from you? Why should all our experiences be the same?
You are reaching conclusions I've not even suggested. You asked "why is this happening". The answer lies among those two options. It's that simple.

GZGoten said:
this evidence matters little if by the enemy never sees it, because 9 out of 10 times I make it so that if the enemy discovers the "evidence" it's already too late for them
It's evidence. What more do you want here? Presumably somebody can find the bodies - even if they can't, they will very damn well notice people missing. The usual goal of a stealth game is to not be known you've been there. By leaving evidence that's making other pepole know you've been there. And the scoring systems reflect that - they reflect you've not been stealthy enough. What is the problem with that then? They seem to be functioning exactly as intended.
 

moosemaimer

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I played through DE:HR three or four times before the Director's Cut came out, and I always went the full stealth approach, except I kept an AP pistol on me at all times. First boss- throw stun grenades, shoot in head. Second boss, shoot with the EMP gun and shoot in head. Third boss I used the Typhoon or the knockout trick.

Once I'd finished the DC and started New Game+ I decided to go full lethal whenever possible, and you don't need a lot of augs when your solution to every problem is headshots and explosions. Hacking isn't as important when you can loot bodies for keycards and you start finding new paths through areas you would normally avoid because it would be too difficult to stealth through them.
 

go-10

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DoPo said:
GZGoten said:
It's evidence. What more do you want here? Presumably somebody can find the bodies - even if they can't, they will very damn well notice people missing. The usual goal of a stealth game is to not be known you've been there. By leaving evidence that's making other pepole know you've been there. And the scoring systems reflect that - they reflect you've not been stealthy enough. What is the problem with that then? They seem to be functioning exactly as intended.
I don't want to just go by and leave them alone, I enjoy taking out my enemies, it's a video game. I should not be penalized for playing a certain way. Stealth means not being seen or heard, how you go about doing that should be up to you not the game to decide

I get the whole 'in real life you'd be found in an instant' and 'that it's just common sense that people missing are a dead give away' but games never go that far out of their way to make this relevant gameplay wise. If a guard is missing some games make other characters investigate for a couple of seconds other games simply replace the guard with another one. None of them contact their higher ups to inform a person abandoning their position
 
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Melon Hunter said:
Taking the mostly lethal route in Dishonored bags you the High Chaos ending, where Emily ends up evil, everything generally goes to shit, and Samuel the boatman gets all passive-aggressive. Which is a bit hard to avoid, considering most of the game's items and spells are in some way lethal. To be fair, I preferred the challenge of doing everything stealthily and without resorting to murdering everyone in sight to get Low Chaos, but it does strike me as a tad unfair that the game pushes all these awesome, deadly gadgets and magic on you, then turns around and goes "Man, you are such an asshole for using that!"
Wholly agree here. Funnily enough, I might have forgiven how inconsistent and mildly frustrating it was had the game allowed me to change what was in Corvo's right hand.

Like in Skyrim and Bioshock where we have control over what is equipped in each hand, Dishonored really lacked here. I was stuck with a sword I never used at all on a stealth run and thus had to constantly switch the left hand between blink, sleep dart and all the other gadgets and abilities.

Of course it didn't help that the "lethal" approach made the game considerably easier, and much, much shorter (an issue with any "stealth" game). But forcing me to use a lethal weapon in a game whose challenge (and main draw) lies in taking a sneaky approach was endlessly frustrating. Left mouse button did nothing for 20+ hours...twice :)
 

Mangue Surfer

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I tried going commando in Deus Ex and don't work either. The game simple punish you whatever. Maybe is the developers vision of challenge.
 

Username Redacted

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Jadwick said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
The worst part is that if you knock someone out and then they're eaten by rats while knocked out it counts as you killing them. A friend of mine was trying to play through the game with no kills and couldn't figure out what kept screwing him over until he released that rats would randomly kill people he knocked out, so from then on every time he knocked someone out he'd pick up their body and move it so that it wasn't laying on the ground. Such a pain in the ass.
I never had a problem with that, but I do have a humorous story of my own.

I was playing a zero-kill play through after I had finished my kill-everyone-and-everything play through and I had gotten through most of the game. I was in the flooded district right before meeting Daud. I blinked up to one of Daud's assassins on a slanted roof and choked him out, and quickly blinked to another before he could spot me. As I choked out the second I happened to turn back to the first body just as it slid off the roof. Rushing over to the edge and looking down I saw the body hit the ground with a crunch.

I knew that this would count as a kill against me, and I considered reloading but then stopped. Of all the coincidences that had to happen to let this poor soul have stood in just the wrong spot so that his unconscious body would roll off the roof we're too astoundingly high that I had to laugh.

I finished a 1-kill play through.

R.I.P faceless nameless assassin.

Edit: on topic; I don't think Dishonored punishes you for killing since I actually liked the bad ending more.
I nearly had this issue (though I quickloaded) when dealing, in the early game, with the creepers below the hideout. First time I shot them both with tranquilizer darts only to realize that one of them had fallen forward into the sewer and drowned.

-_-

Second attempt: shot both with the darts, activated time slow and then sprinted to catch the falling creeper before he hit the water, cradling him in my arms before gently depositing him on the ground. Unconscious but alive.
 

DoPo

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GZGoten said:
I should not be penalized for playing a certain way.
Sure, all games should just give us all the points all the time. I see. And we shouldn't be penalised in a racing game for not moving at all - we should just win by default. And all that "building stuff" and "commanding armies" stuff in Heroes is just padding - why do we need to do it? We're just penalized, man.

GZGoten said:
I get the whole 'in real life you'd be found in an instant' and 'that it's just common sense that people missing are a dead give away' but games never go that far out of their way to make this relevant gameplay wise.
Except when they do by scoring you. That's exactly the rationale - in the real world leaving evidence would be against the goal - the game cannot model that for computers are limited to something called "not simulating the whole universe in 100% detail". Hence we have the technique of representing stuff differently. In the real world walking around with your knees bent slightly is not really much less noticeable than walking normally. In some video games this is used for "sneaking" when it'd just be silly IRL. Yes if you do want to not be noticeable you would make sure you take up as little visual space as possible and generally not stand out for which the slight crouch is a metaphor for.

When the whole game is built toward an idea and you go against it, it's not fair to call it "penalizing" you. You're then clearly not playing the game you think you're playing. In Deus Ex the choices are one of the defining feature of the gameplay - being able to take on situation in a variety of ways is a very key element - when suddenly some choices are actively being ignored and work against you in situations - the boss fights mentioned several times, then yes, you would have a point. In a game that tries to make sure nobody knows you passed, you claim that staying with that theme is incorrect, then no, I don't think so.

If you want to play your way - go pick something that allows it. Most games consist of structured rules towards a particular idea, it's only natural that going against that idea would be...you know, against that idea.
 

Pyrian

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I went through Daud's missions killing every unambiguous enemy (I spared most of the gangsters because I was basically recruiting them) and condemned the final boss to a fate worse than death. Result? Low chaos. Lol.

I made it through VtM:Bloodlines as a Toreador with guns&celerity for combat. Worked fine. Spent the rest on social skills (and a little bit of stealth, IIRC).

Mark of the Ninja annoys me with its excellent alarm mechanics. It's fun to fight and/or escape when you get caught! So, what's the problem? The points penalty is so freakin' high that I always reload anyway. Why go to the trouble of making that part of the game fun if you're going to turn around and prevent you from buying upgrades if you do it?

For me, DX:HR stealth required no augs, whereas running a combat character was very aug heavy. I mean, there's stealth augs and combat augs, but the combat augs are useful and the stealth augs just aren't.
 

Ghraf

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Metal Gear Solid 3 could be kinda said to penalize you for playing a certain way, since in the the Sorrow boss fight you have to deal with the ghosts of all the people you've killed. If you don't kill anyone then you only have to "fight" the four other Cobra unit members and it's much shorter and easier.