Games Where The 'Antagonist/Villian' Wins (Or Was Right)?

Rednog

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In F.E.A.R 2 the player's character ends up getting raped by the villain, the world is basically in apocalypse mode.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Gekidami said:
Spec Ops: The Line, Walker's team turn out to be the aggressors, he always started combat first
Actually, not ALL the time. In the beginning, the whole team was like, "Oh hey! What's up?" And then the people in the city got super paranoid and started shooting at him. NOW, what Walker SHOULD have done at that point was to call in and say they found the guys and just went home after that, but as we all know, they didn't.
 

Mangod

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Silentpony said:
Does Stubbs the Zombie count? 'cause you're technically eating innocent people's brains and murdering hundreds of people with your zombie horde.
And lets not forget break-dancing against the chief of police. Then eating his brains.
Nope. Stubbs is the protagonist of that game. If the game ended with the Chief of Police blowing his head off and going full Ash Williams on your zombie horde, it would have counted.
 

FalloutJack

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crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
 

crimson5pheonix

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
I don't know that a definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist] can be an opinion.
 

FalloutJack

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crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
I don't know that a definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist] can be an opinion.
I've already explained that there are exceptions and that you don't agree, but your not agreeing is an opinion.
 

crimson5pheonix

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
I don't know that a definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist] can be an opinion.
I've already explained that there are exceptions and that you don't agree, but your not agreeing is an opinion.
Actually you haven't explained that, you haven't even given an example of an exception.
 

FalloutJack

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crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
I don't know that a definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist] can be an opinion.
I've already explained that there are exceptions and that you don't agree, but your not agreeing is an opinion.
Actually you haven't explained that, you haven't even given an example of an exception.
This entire argument has been over my inclusion of Destroy All Humans, and explaining why. I've done plenty. The problem is that you do not like what I've said, and that I don't find your counter compelling. Now, if you have some other angle to pursue, like character motivation or plot development, that's fine. But if your disagreement has become 'You didn't explain' when this argument has been nothing but explanation, I must ask you to stop.
 

crimson5pheonix

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well, that's an opinion you have that differs from mine and you'll have to let it differ.

Mangod said:
Same goes for you. Still just splitting hairs to me, and that's all it's gonna be.
I don't know that a definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist] can be an opinion.
I've already explained that there are exceptions and that you don't agree, but your not agreeing is an opinion.
Actually you haven't explained that, you haven't even given an example of an exception.
This entire argument has been over my inclusion of Destroy All Humans, and explaining why. I've done plenty. The problem is that you do not like what I've said, and that I don't find your counter compelling. Now, if you have some other angle to pursue, like character motivation or plot development, that's fine. But if your disagreement has become 'You didn't explain' when this argument has been nothing but explanation, I must ask you to stop.
Then we're back at "a definition is not an opinion". The antagonist is not defined as who is morally right or who struck first, the antagonist is defined as the person/force that opposes the protagonist and the protagonist is defined as the main character of the story. Games make it easy because we control the protagonist by definition. It doesn't matter that the humans are morally right, they're the antagonists because they're trying to stop the protagonist.
 

FalloutJack

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crimson5pheonix said:
No, you're there. I'm past that. You're going around in circles. I'm just not budging because of your opinion, which is clearly that exceptions don't exist, which is not true, and you don't want to accept my example of one because...I have no idea. Just seems like point of view to me, in which case: Impasse.
 

crimson5pheonix

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, you're there. I'm past that. You're going around in circles. I'm just not budging because of your opinion, which is clearly that exceptions don't exist, which is not true, and you don't want to accept my example of one because...I have no idea. Just seems like point of view to me, in which case: Impasse.
Because it's not an impasse. Where you're stuck is that protagonist=hero antagonist=villain and that's not true. Crypto in Destroy All Humans may be the villain, but that just means he's a villain protagonist [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist]. Since he's not caught by the humans iirc, he's not defeated, thus the antagonists (the humans) do not win.
 

Mangod

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, you're there. I'm past that. You're going around in circles. I'm just not budging because of your opinion, which is clearly that exceptions don't exist, which is not true, and you don't want to accept my example of one because...I have no idea. Just seems like point of view to me, in which case: Impasse.
Protagonist = The main character in any story, such as a literary work or drama. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/protagonist]
Antagonist = The main character or force opposing the protagonist in a literary work or drama. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/antagonist#English]

In order for Destroy All Humans to be an example of what the OP is asking for ("Games Where The 'Antagonist' Wins?"), the humans would have to be the main characters.

This is not subjective opinion; DAH is not an example of the antagonist winning, because Crypto is the protagonist of the story, not the antagonist. Is he a villain? Yes, but that's not what's being asked for.

Hell, the antagonist doesn't even have to be a villain at all; Javert from Le Mis [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert] is the antagonist of the story, but he's not a villain; nothing he does is out of a sense of malice, greed, or sadism.

In order to provide the OP an actual example of what he's asking for, you need to find a game where the main character fails - the meteor kills all life on Earth, the cultists summon Cthulhu, the pretty boy with mommy issues destroys the entire universe, etc, etc - despite the protagonists attempts to prevent the very same from happening.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Maybe Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth?

Yes, you defeat Dagon, kill Mother Hydra and stop the Deep Ones and their Cultists, but being set in the Cthulhu Mythos, you've likely only delayed the eventual doom of mankind, temporarily haven driven off the eldritch abominations, only for them to return more powerful when the stars are right. And the experience al but destroys your character, who eventually commits suicide because of it. The best you can hope for is a fleeting pyrhhic victory against what are essentially just the low level mooks.
 

FalloutJack

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crimson5pheonix said:
Mangod said:
No, you two are just not listening and I am not convinced by your arguments. You deny that hybrid characters and writing as such exists, which is wrong as I've explained, and that IS an impasse, by definition. [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impasse] So, either you accept the defined term of impasse and that we cannot reach a conclusion because of our differing points of view OR you accept that exceptions exist to the rule and thus you CAN continue discussion...but then you'd have to accept my argument.
 

Mangod

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Mangod said:
No, you two are just not listening and I am not convinced by your arguments. You deny that hybrid characters and writing as such exists, which is wrong as I've explained, and that IS an impasse, by definition. [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impasse] So, either you accept the defined term of impasse and that we cannot reach a conclusion because of our differing points of view OR you accept that exceptions exist to the rule and thus you CAN continue discussion...but then you'd have to accept my argument.
What argument? That Antagonist and Main Character cannot be used interchangeably? "Hybrid character" is supposed to mean what, exactly? That someone can be the Protagonist and the Villain at the same time? Yes, we've both agreed, that's what the term villain protagonist is for.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're arguing that the main character of the story can be the Antagonist, then that's a fundamental misinterpretation of what the term means. I'll give you an example from cinema: Tony Montana [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Montana].

Tony is the main character of Scarface, i.e. the Protagonist of the Movie. He's also a murderous, sadistic, loudmouthed drug kingpin; in other words, a villain. The Antagonist is Sossa, who in the end succeeds in killing Tony by sending a small army of assassins after the man. Sossa is a rival crimeboss, so he's not a hero. He's the antagonist of the story because he opposes the main character. That's it.

Saying that "the Villain wins" and that "the Antagonist wins" are not the same thing, because the terms are not interchangeable. They are sometimes used as such, but they mean fundamentally different things. Protagonist just means main character; Hero means someone heroic, someone who's motivated by virtue. Antagonist means someone/thing that opposes the Protagonist; a Villain is someone who's motivated by vice.

Your argument that the antagonist wins in Destroy All Humans, for example, seem to be rooted in the fact that you've conflated Antagonist with Villain. Yes, Crypto is a Villain, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still the Protagonist of the story, because he's the Main Character. The antagonists of DAH are Silhouette and President Huffman, who, while trying to save the world from an alien invader (Hero), are still opposing the main character (Antagonist).

If we use Super Mario as an example, Mario is the Protagonist, and Bowser the Antagonist. If we use Dungeon Keeper, the Keeper is the protagonist, and the heroes who invade the dungeon are the Antagonists. Mario and the heroes are the... well, Heroes of their respective story, but only one of them is the protagonist.
 

crimson5pheonix

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FalloutJack said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Mangod said:
No, you two are just not listening and I am not convinced by your arguments. You deny that hybrid characters and writing as such exists, which is wrong as I've explained, and that IS an impasse, by definition. [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impasse] So, either you accept the defined term of impasse and that we cannot reach a conclusion because of our differing points of view OR you accept that exceptions exist to the rule and thus you CAN continue discussion...but then you'd have to accept my argument.
It's only a discussion insofar as you not accepting literary definitions based on nothing at all. It's not an opinion, Crypto isn't the antagonist. Full stop. The story isn't an example of the antagonist winning. Full stop. By no literary definition does your argument stand. However it is nice how you ignore definitions until you think it suits you to use them.
 

DoPo

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FalloutJack said:
No, you two are just not listening and I am not convinced by your arguments.
Convinced of what? That the literal definition of the term does not agree with what you claim you think is? Because it's fairly easy to check.

FalloutJack said:
You deny that hybrid characters and writing as such exists
Do you mean "morally hybrid" (which is exceptionally odd thing to say)? Because, if so - incorrect. It's been repeatedly pointed out that it does exist and protagonist/antagonist already solve the ambiguity by not addressing morality.

FalloutJack said:
our differing points of view
Erm, it's pretty much you plugging your ears and going "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU! LA-LA-LA-LA" which is where the difference comes from, though. Because you refuse to go by the mainstream and only definition available for the words "protagonist" and "antagonist".

FalloutJack said:
you accept that exceptions exist to the rule
What exceptions? Which rule? Do you also disagree with how the term, say, "consonant" is used? What about the term "prime number" - are those also just a matter of personal interpretation?

FalloutJack said:
but then you'd have to accept my argument.
No. Let me make it perfectly clear: I shall not accept your argument that "the actual definition of the words 'antagonist' and 'protagonist' is merely a matter of opinion". You have not managed to produce anything but "it's an opinion" in defence of that. Can you prove there does not exist a formal statement of meaning for those words? Because it doesn't, that means they only have personal interpretation. Yes, by definition.
 

FPLOON

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Jak 2 - You cause the main antagonist to start (or rather continue) the time loop alongside the protagonist...
Tales of Symphonia - The antagonist warned about doing that thing (which the antagonist kinda wanted to do, but differently) and you do it anyway... leading up to the next game, spoiler-wise...
Sonic 06 - They won by purely existing to begin with... Then again, in a meta sense, everyone lost when you think about it...
BlazBlue - In the words of Maroon 5: "Too many times before..."
CALENDULA - [REDACTED SPOILER] overall...
Catherine - Life sucks when you're [an anime fan on prom night]!

Other than that, I'm so tempting to put Pony Island on said list given the "all tickets" ending, but the meta narrative would disagree with that notion...
 

Tanis

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Well, this thread went sideways...

Fixed up the title, hopefully I've made myself a bit clearer.

Sometimes who you play as isn't 'really' the hero, they just...win.

Sometimes who you play as is the hero, and they just...lose.

Yay?