That_Sneaky_Camper said:
Treblaine said:
While I'm on a roll: Red Dead Redemption
Apparently we are supposed to feel so sorry for John Marsten and that Ross is the real villain, that it's a terrible betrayal for the army to come after him (though I personally relished the new fighting as RDR had turned into farming simulator).
But Ross challenged that John was responsible for murdering men, women and children... and John didn't deny it, it shut him up and he changed the subject. John by all rights should pay the capital punishment for his crimes.
John complain about Ross kidnapping his family when we later learn that his wife is in fact a prostitute and has not been kidnapped but imprisoned. WHAT?!? Is John seriously calling lawful imprisonment kidnapping?
And after John gets killed in a shoot out WITH THE ARMY why does Jack want revenge? John worked his ass how getting freedom for his wife and son and then Jack throws it away by murdering Ross who was just trying to enjoy his retirement. I couldn't even shoot the gun out of Ross's hand, I HAD to kill him and the worst part both Ross's Wife and brother know I came for him so I'd be prime and likely suspect for his murder.
John WAS the bad guy, and he could only get Redemption by bringing in the rest of his gang AND dying for his crimes but Jack threw all that away by murdering Ross.
Those are all very fair points but Ross doesn't see the hypocrisy of his actions. John was trying to give up his old gang life and start a ranch with his family, had Ross not captured his family then he never would have killed all the people that he encounters in the main game. Ross was the one that forced John to take up the gun again.
Besides John acknowledges the crimes he committed in the past and he says that he pays for them daily as they haunt him. If John was truly beyond redemption he wouldn't have tried to fix up his life in the first place. Even his wife gave up the life of a prostitute so that she could join John in trying to rebuild their lives and create a better future for their son Jack. Given how Jack and Abigail seem to have come to no serious harm it does come off more as "protective custody" but Ross still took John's family away from him.
Furthermore Ross explicitly says that if John does what Ross asks of him then he will make sure that John receives a pardon and will be able to move on with his family life. John did everything Ross asked and should have had his criminal status under the law removed. Beyond that there are laws against the Army storming a private citizen's house which Ross would have broken by sending them to storm John's house and have him killed.
Ross comes off as a corrupt Federal Agent who not only kidnaps a man's family to blackmail him into doing what he wants but goes back on his promise of leaving John alone. He didn't deserve a peaceful retirement after what he did to John. I would have been able to forgive the man had he left John alone but clearly he didn't.
Now I'm not saying that Jack should have killed Ross, no, I agree with you when you say that invalidates everything John did to provide a better life for his son. John built up that ranch so Jack could one day inherit and live a comfortable life but he also sacrificed himself to Ross so that his family wouldn't be caught in the crossfire. Jack's revenge has made him an outlaw and made his life empty, this is reflected in Jack's gameplay quotes when he questions what he has become. Jack has become exactly like what his father once was, which John didn't want. Plus killing Ross still hasn't fixed John's reputation, in official history John Marston will be remembered as an outlaw and Ross as the hero who took him down. Even in death Ross won.
John was the bad guy who worked hard at gaining his redemption, Ross was a federal agent whose position over the law is meant to protect the citizens of the local population and yet he abused that power for his own gain to receive glory and fame. John deserves to be remembered as a hero, not Ross.
Well a War Criminal can run away and start a new life, and settle down but they still did what they did. This is not looking at their future criminality but how they must face justice for the crimes they have already committed.
John is NOT hunted for the people he killed IN the game. You can play totally honourably, only ever killing in self-defence or enforcement of the law but it won't change the fact that before the game even started John was guilty of multiple counts of murder.
"John acknowledges the crimes he committed in the past and he says that he pays for them daily as they haunt him."
Wow, from all the snarky back-chat between relaxed coolness you can really tell he is a tortured being [/sarcasm]. Nonsense, he is no where near getting fair punishment, saying "gosh I feel bad" is no where near a punishment fitting for a just society, especially in the Wild West. Why does this apply to John and not EVERY OTHER criminal? Notice John only ever says he is tortured by his crimes when he is being threatened with punishment. Otherwise he just says he is a bad person. Throughout the game he will suddenly threaten to kill people who won't cave into his commands.
"Ross comes off as a corrupt Federal Agent"
Nope, he shows no sign of corruption, never took any bribes nor abused his power for personal gain, never wavered in his cause to rid the West of these criminal psychopaths. What he is is an
asshole, and just that. I thought we didn't care about assholes any more? I thought we'd grown out of assuming whether someone is a bad guy or not depending on how much or a jerk they are? Gregory House is an asshole but we love him for it. I've said it already, lawful imprisonment is NOT Kidnapping. John is like a broken record on the kidnapping thing but his family are lawfully in prison.
Ross made a promise he couldn't keep. He COULD get clemency for John's family if John brought in the rest of his gang... but he could NOT wipe the slate clean of John's crimes. John cannot kill his way out of his murderous crimes, it's a zero sum change. And saying he feels bad won't do well either, especially when he doesn't seem to feel the least bit tortured about it. Anyway, who says Ross has absolute power over the law, what if the family of one of John's Murder victims went to the State Governor and complained that the murderer of their son is living free?
What could Ross say to say this man was above the law? Yes, good that he brought in the rest of his gang but what stops their being done again? Gang goes on killing spree, then gang members kill each other and the last one standing walks free? Bullshit. Ross could only go along with the Government Troops to attempt to arrest or kill John who clearly would not come quietly.
"John was the bad guy who worked hard at gaining his redemption"
He couldn't redeem himself with killing more people. That would only spare his family. His only path to redemption was to pay for his crimes. Im the West, that meant with with his life. I don't think John could bare to stand trial to be publicly hanged, he chose to go down fighting.
"Ross was a federal agent whose position over the law is meant to protect the citizens of the local population and yet he abused that power for his own gain to receive glory and fame."
Really? And where did Jack find Ross? With his family, living a humble retirement out of the way, not giving speeches and pinning over ghost writers to publish his memoirs. It seems only his competition in the bureau had scorn for him and his medals, likely over jealousy. But you don't seem to understand what medals are. You can buy a tin medal for a couple bucks in a thrift store, but an EARNED one means invaluably more. It means to was instrumental in getting rid of an extremely dangerous gang. He DID protect the citizens by routing this gang. He did NOT abuse his power, he USED it properly. And he shunned glory and fame, promptly retiring when the job was done rather than further his power in the bureaucracy.
I can't believe how many assume he is the bad guy just because he is a bit of a jerk.
Jack is the bastard here, Is he going to kill all the soldiers as well? The governor who sent them (only he has that power)? When will Jack's orgy or revenge end? It should have ended before it started by recognising it was justice for his father to die, either in beign arrested or by hanging.
