Games with Low Aesthetic Distance (High Immersion) and (close to) no Ludo-narrative Dissonance

[camscottbryce]

That's a hefty title isn't it. I feel pretentious just for writing it like that, but I learned what they meant today and here's me being a shitty, excited school girl over learning new words. Or maybe I'll get the meanings wrong and you all can call me out on it. Anyway:

What are the most immersive games you've played, but games that have close to no ludo-narrative dissonance (or none at all). In other words, highly immersive games in which the mechanics fully embody the theme of the game and do not take away from it at all. I realized I had very few to list for this, and some of them are games that sometimes aren't considered games:

Superbrothers: Sword & Sworcery EP
The Walking Dead
Proteus
Dear Esther
Kentucky Route Zero

Are the main ones I've come up with.

As a side note: I was watching a bit of gamegrumps recently, and Arin Hanson explained that he has yet to lose himself in a game and be fully immersed. He believes that no one has been fully immersed yet, even if they say they are. I find that interesting because even when I consider some of these games, I realize that I never really fully lost myself, which is a shame. There's always a text box, or a graphical glitch, or a trope that pulls me straight out into my normal, critical-gamer self. But I did play through Dear Esther for the first time yesterday, and really enjoyed exploring. Same goes for Proteus.

Do you think it's possible? Perhaps, but I don't think I've ever been fully immersed either.

 

[Trueflame]

Of those Walking Dead is the only one I've played, and I see what you mean regarding it... But at the same time I felt too constrained by the environment and the mechanics. It always felt like there was more that I could be doing if I was just free to tinker with the objects I could find.

Really, the closest I can think of to what you are describing is Civilization 4. You can't get immersed in a character, because you're not playing as anyone, but you do get immersed in the empire that you are creating, in the minute problems of a particular turn, and the larger problems of the military campaign you are conducting, or the economic depression you are trying to claw your way free of. It keeps you playing turn after turn, and makes you very invested and involved in the gameplay. That's the best I can offer.

 

[camscottbryce]

Of those Walking Dead is the only one I've played, and I see what you mean regarding it... But at the same time I felt too constrained by the environment and the mechanics. It always felt like there was more that I could be doing if I was just free to tinker with the objects I could find.

Really, the closest I can think of to what you are describing is Civilization 4. You can't get immersed in a character, because you're not playing as anyone, but you do get immersed in the empire that you are creating, in the minute problems of a particular turn, and the larger problems of the military campaign you are conducting, or the economic depression you are trying to claw your way free of. It keeps you playing turn after turn, and makes you very invested and involved in the gameplay. That's the best I can offer.

You're free to have that opinion! And Civ 4 is definitely valid, despite not having a real "protagonist." The mechanics match the theme and you feel immersed so it definitely works. Thanks for the input!

 

[NeutralDrow]

"Full immersion" is kind of a dicey term to really define or use, though I see what you mean. Personally, I've found that a game with any sort of narrative really has to try to not get me immersed in some way, even if it's just the standard low-level "shutting out the outside world and concentrating on the game" kind (Dark Souls was a perfect storm to ruin even that). A deeper immersion beyond that, I'd agree, is kinda like "even though on some level I remember this is a game, it feels too natural to even think about that" (like you said, when the mechanics embody the theme very well, and the theme works). I'm probably the wrong person to ask about that, since I've felt it for everything from RPGs (Tales of Symphonia) to action games (Devil May Cry 3) and even to rhythm games (gods, but I loves me my Stepmania).

But full immersion? Totally losing yourself in the game?

Yes, I believe that's possible, because I think I've felt that at least once, possibly even three times. All different games, and ironically <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.135672-Neutral-Drow-reviews-A-Drug-That-Makes-You-Dream>all <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.163769-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Kanon>visual <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.308335-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Symphonic-Rain>novels. Or maybe it's not ironic, since all three instances were during times of major emotion, making it downright easy to forget that people besides Deadpool don't usually think in text boxes or with soundtracks. For between 5-15 minutes at a time, I matched the thoughts and feelings of the given protagonist so closely I could have given their dialogue for them. In fact, for all I know I may have. I wasn't really thinking about it during the moments.

And yes, I do count visual novels as games, and half for this reason. Short of discovering a real Neverending Story, I can't think of a book or film that could give the same interactive sensation.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Katawa Shoujo is probably the most immersive game I've ever played. Holy shit it just sucks you in and doesn't let go till you finish a path.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Katawa Shoujo is probably the most immersive game I've ever played. Holy shit it just sucks you in and doesn't let go till you finish a path.

I felt that some of the time, too. A little during Shizune's route (especially the <url=http://i.imgur.com/TvU8gmn.jpg>Act 1 and <url=http://i.imgur.com/Re2W9xA.jpg>Act 2 ending scenes). A little more during Lilly's (because she's just that lovely a person). A lot during Emi's (because, just...damn).

Weird thing, though. Even though I loved Hanako and Rin both dearly (Hanako especially, for being essentially a female me from years ago), I wasn't able to immerse in their routes. Well, maybe I was, but only in a weird Baten Kaitos-esque manner, because I had to fight Hisao's lack of comprehension along the way.

It was a weird feeling empathizing with Hanako's crippling social anxiety and Rin's desire to be understood, while at the same time occasionally being slapped in the face with the Dramatic Irony fish.

 

[skywolfblue]

"Full immersion" in this case meaning completely forgetting reality?

I think that would have to be extremely rare... It's easy to be engaged and absorbed in a game, but it's very difficult to eliminate reality entirely. In the past I would become very absorbed/wrapped up in my WoW character during raids, but even then I was always aware of reality on some level.

 

[FourCartridge]

Just wondering; Have you been watching Campster's Errant Signal lately? =P

To answer your question, FarCry 3 is the closest I can think of. The colors are vivid enough to be engrossing and Jason's mental state about killing is the plot's central focus(even though Vaas carries the game a great deal, he's mostly a cautionary figure, speaking in narrative terms).

The only other games I've been immersed in are racing games, but since those are plotless I don't think they count.

 

[Tanakh]

The only other games I've been immersed in are racing games, but since those are plotless I don't think they count.

They do count. I am a obsessive person and very sensitive to ludo narrative dissonance, the only games that have managed to immerse me are plotless, most recent of those being Super Hexagon

Also, you should note that couple of the hipster indie titles in the OP are plotless. Nothing bad with hipster indie games, I love (some of) em! And yeah, the walking death has almost no ludo narrative dissonance, IMO achieved this by skipping the ludic part.

 

[camscottbryce]

Just wondering; Have you been watching Campster's Errant Signal lately? =P

To answer your question, FarCry 3 is the closest I can think of. The colors are vivid enough to be engrossing and Jason's mental state about killing is the plot's central focus(even though Vaas carries the game a great deal, he's mostly a cautionary figure, speaking in narrative terms).

The only other games I've been immersed in are racing games, but since those are plotless I don't think they count.

Haha, yep, I love me some Campster, and he loves himself some ludo-narrative dissonance haha.

I forgot about Far Cry 3, but you're right. Especially that (semi-hidden) moment where Jason says that murder is winning. Perfect example, I think, because to the player, murder is winning as well. So the theme definitely has relevance to the gameplay.

 

[camscottbryce]

The only other games I've been immersed in are racing games, but since those are plotless I don't think they count.

They do count. I am a obsessive person and very sensitive to ludo narrative dissonance, the only games that have managed to immerse me are plotless, most recent of those being Super Hexagon

Also, you should note that couple of the hipster indie titles in the OP are plotless. Nothing bad with hipster indie games, I love (some of) em! And yeah, the walking death has almost no ludo narrative dissonance, IMO achieved this by skipping the ludic part.

I don't know if I entirely agree with you. I think each of those games has a plot (even Proteus), just not in the same organized manner as "intro, rising action, climax, falling action, resolution." Granted, it might be more abstract, but I still think there was a plot.

As for The Walking Dead, I somewhat understand what you mean about "skipping the ludic part," but again, I'm inclined to disagree. It seems that your statement corresponds with the claim that "The Walking Dead" isn't a video game at all. But what separates it from a lot of games is how many gameplay choices used by current games, particularly violence, were cut out in order to make the game about your choices during the apocalypse, particularly social choices. Thus, making choices, listening to people, helping people, and examining things all become the core gameplay elements, which means that the entire game, "is a game." Even the "cutscenes" are gameplay, in some sense of the word...

I feel as though I've lost my train of thought

I hate coming off as a hipster, pretentious, holier-than-thou kind of person. You're entitled to your opinion. But I always felt like I was "playing" TWD. I don't think it has no ludo-narrative dissonance because it has no gameplay, I think it has no ludo-narrative dissonance because it does it's gameplay completely entirely right.

 

[NeutralDrow]

By the way, I forgot to ask. What's "ludo-narration?"

 

[kailus13]

Would Okami count if you just run around fighting monsters? I can also lose myself playing Tetris and Solitaire.

 

[FourCartridge]

By the way, I forgot to ask. What's "ludo-narration?"

It's how gameplay affects the story and vice-versa. For example, in Max Payne 3, Max is dealing with heavy depression, addiction, & alcoholism, yet the gameplay has him dive-shooting John Woo style. He's little more than a walking turret in gameplay and when he kicks his habits when the people he was supposed to protect get kidnapped, none of that has an effect on gameplay. That's ludo-narrative dissonance.

(Or to use a more famous example, when Aeris dies in FF7 to getting stabbed by a sword when a Phoenix Down can bring people back from far worse things.)

A game with little ludo-narrative dissonance has both the story and gameplay integrated in an attempt to use video gaming to tell a story that may not be possible though book, movies, etc. To use the Max Payne example above, if both the elements were integrated, there would be something in normal gameplay to reflect that Max has quit his vices; for instance, dropping Painkillers for regenerating health or more Bullet Time now that his senses have recovered from abuse.

I hope that helps you understand. =P

 

[Tanakh]

-snip-

About having a plot. You are a human, that means that your perceptions are processed through a brain designed to find familiar patterns in the info it receives. For example, I see Marilyn Monroe in this toast:

Spoiler

and it's impossible to prove that I am right or wrong about that. As such, saying a videogame has or not a plot is totally futile, because it is just a matter of opinion of the player. I wrote that because wanted to point out to the quoted person that a racing game probably falls well within your definition of a plot mate.

As for TWD, of course it's a videogame, it is an interactive experience delivered through electronic media, and you have my full support to smack the head of anyone who disagrees. It's just a very lame & boring videogame for me, this days I only play for gameplay. About it's dissonance, here's the thing mate, the gameplay is so limited that any ludo-narrative breakup would be possible only due bad writing, not really due the gameplay itself; it would be like me saying Planetside 2 has no dissonance, which is true, but it's only possible because the plot is so thin is almost gaseous and thus impossible to break with the gameplay. Amnesia? Now THERE you have an example I can get behind.

About your image, you come across as a timid, mild but smart young man which maybe puts a bit too much attention to what others think. You are however a hipster at videogmaes, which is fine, I know for sure because I have played all the games you have mentioned and a couple of those are totally obscure ones that I only came across because I am a hipster.

Sorry for the delayed response, I have been in the countryside, no interwebz in those mountains.