Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

[Paragon Fury]

So some of you may have followed a game called Dragon's Crown, a game for the PS3 being published by ATLAS. Recently, as some may know, one of the art directors made a rather large ass of himself on the Internet.

I'll let you read about that particular debacle here:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/you-dont-like-breasts-you-must-like-men-the-disappointing-conversation-and

and here:

http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-sexy-video-ga-478120280

While there is a metric ton of content to be able to go through here, for my personal part I'm going to pick on one thing brought up by many of the commenters, and even had a PA comic made about it, found here:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic


You'll notice the image on the right in the final panel. That's what I want to talk about. Because it bugs me, particularly as a student/scholar of psychology, sociology (and to a lesser extent, biology), what the underlying implications of that image are. And those implications are something that many members of this website buy into, and an argument that many try to use against the "hyper-sexualization" of women in media.

And that implication is that male and female sexuality and appearances are equal, and equally important.

They are not. They are not equal on any level - at least not anymore. From basic culture to biological importance they are not equal or of equal important. The physical appearance of women has always been (and likely will be due to the stagnation of medical and biological sciences recently) more important than that of men. And art (of all kinds), has always reflected this inequality. While the argument could easily be made that some take it too far, to argue that the appearance of men and women should be given equal treatment is not a reflection of reality - particularly not when it comes to sexual characteristics (secondary included).

While there is a ton that can be discussed about this story, this is the part that really wiggled under my skin since so many of the comments and the story itself seemed based an inherently flawed assumption. And I am prepared for the response I'll get for this.....unpopular......opinion. I have my flamesuit on.

CAPTCHA:

Open Season.

Well, that doesn't bode well.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well, I've said this once today already, but I'll say it again, maybe we should just go back to stick figures. But people would find something to be offended by even then.

Still, imagining everyone you meet as a stick figure is a fun pastime sometimes. Lots of giggles.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Gerenally, when this discussion pops up, I just shout "artistic liberty" at anyone that's offended. That's as far as I see this having to go.

 

[ellieallegro]

The physical appearance of women has always been more important than that of men... Really? It depends on what you mean by physical appearance. The physical traits of men have been just as important in western civ as women just in different contexts. If you are talking about the hyper-sexuality of women in modern media then maybe I would agree with you in the way images of women are used but not as a biological and cultural blanket statement.

A case can and should be made for the hyper (and hypo)-masculinity in media and culture as well. The cliche of the muscular proto-caveman/protector/provider comes to mind.

Granted, I think the art director of the game should be free to exercise their artistic freedom; however, it shouldn't and doesn't make them immune from criticism or the conversation that stems from it.

 

[Scolar Visari]

Someone mentioned an interesting take on this specific design in Dragon's Crown and on the general design philosophy of similar characters by this same artist.

All female necromancers/magic users designed by George Kamitani have a design similar to many traditional fertility and life goddesses, namely big hip and big breasts. This falls in line with a theme of these female necromancers giving new life to the dead, rather than the traditional crusty old men forcing the dead back to life.

Is this the truth behind his designs? I don't know and I don't particularly care. All of Kamitani's characters are pretty exaggerated and this Kotaku shill is an idiot for getting so butt-frustrated over something so pointless.

Also, fuck you for making me accidentally click a link to Kotaku and giving them page views.

 

[Basement Cat]

[HEADING=1]The Earth Mother[/HEADING]

One of humanity's most ancient symbols. For millenia it was viewed as the archetype of fertility and femininity.

Notice the tiny waist. The muscular thighs. The undersized head. The flat belly.

Oh, wait...

 

[DoPo]

But even if it is what you think it is, so what? The people who made this also use to be afraid of thunder because it was a sign that the magical sky daddy was angry... What you've just done is called the Genetic Fallacy.

The genetic fallacy, also known as fallacy of origins, fallacy of virtue, is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

In other words, the opinions of illeterate pre industrial savages living roughly 24,000 years ago is pretty much irrelevant in a discussion about a computer game in the year 2013 CE.

Erm...yes, actually the image of (supposed) fertility goddess is relevant in a discussion about a computer game in the year 2013 CE, if said computer game also has a character supposedly based on a fertility goddess. And the two look nothing alike. I suppose the sorceress could be based on a different fertility goddess (there is a fuckton of them...pun not intended), however brief research into depictions of fertility goddesses didn't show anything too close to that character design. Big breasts, perhaps but that's not enough of a similarity, I think - the other depictions emphasised the fertility in some way - multiple breasts or the female being pregnant, for example, others didn't look too extraordinary (for deity depictions, at least). None were really as skinny as the sorceress.

Again, it was only a very brief research, so I couldn't have covered every single possible goddess or depiction - I might be wrong.

At any rate, the "opinions of illeterate pre industrial savages living roughly 24,000 years ago" are relevant when they are said to be used by a literate industrialised civilised game director from 26 centuries later.

 

[Nickolai77]

The OP's right that male and female appearances aren't equal, but i'm not sure about the rest. The idealised male and female forms are not equal because they are different, not because one is more or less worthy of attention.

When males depict sexualised females in art, it's all about their physical appearance and little about their character. If such a female does have any character, it's often flirty or submissive. If a woman depicts sexualised males in art, judging by Twilight and 50 Shades and personal experience, it's as much about the behaviour of the male character (forward, confident, domineering) as it is their physical appearance, which is more a Michelangelo's David type than the incredible hulk. However some male gamers naively assume that the latter body type is a female sexual fantasy, because they make the wrong but understandable assumption that because they like overly exaggerated female assets, females must like overly exaggerated male assets.

(Although there's been a scientific study recently that claims that women do like overly exaggerated male assets, just not quite the assets we're talking about here)

Anyway- I'd like to see less sexually exaggerated females in art just because i want more females to get into gaming and share a personal hobby of mine. Sexually objectifying females does put a lot of real women off, like how any media full of sexually objectified men would put me off. By all means, gaming artists are free to draw what they please, but we're also free to critique it and say it creates a bad image for the gaming industry.

 

[Phasmal]

I think it is hilarious you think `nothing should change bro it's not important` is an UNPOPULAR opinion on this site.
Where have you been hanging out, the moon?

Either way, these conversations aren't gonna go away.
Hopefully we'll get some more diverse characters out of them, but if you think the T&A ones are gonna get all locked up and taken away you are just being wilfully ignorant.

(THIS is how you get flamed, son!)
I'm in one of these moods today

Plus I love that gif

 

[CorvusFerreum]

Well, I've said this once today already, but I'll say it again, maybe we should just go back to stick figures. But people would find something to be offended by even then.

I'll leave you this [http://hystericalmarissa.blogspot.de/2010/09/go-where-gender-and-ability.html]
It's defiently to be taken with a wink. [http://hystericalmarissa.blogspot.de/2010/08/go-where-sex-gender-and-toilets.html] It's still an amusing and somewhat interesting read though. And actually some food for thought.


O.T.:
Isn't the different perception of importance of male and female appearence exactly a thing at least certain streams of feminism wants to overcome? From that perspective the arguing makes sense. Just a thought.
I don't mind hypersexualisation, wether it's male or female. It's a legitimate style, it's just overdone.
As for Dragons Crown: The male characters look somewhat sexualised too. Some might look at it from the "power fantasy" angle, but I think it's still sexualisation. And as I said: I don't mind.
I think the PA comic got the wrong angle here: I don't think a belgian blue with a horsedong and mammoth wool is sexualising men in the way watermelons on poles are sexualising women. I wouldn't think that the last panel is exactly pandering to (what media assumes) women constitute attractive in men. At least not in this scale.
I might be wrong though. I never could put my finger on what exactly constitutes as an attractive male (other than "not me" of course).

Oh and yeah: I think this discussion is a bit overblown. If people start to make a fuss about every sexualised characterdesign we just distract from more serious issues. And more importantly: We end up undermining artistic freedom. I think every gamedeveloper should be free to chose main characters and artstyle they deem fitting. Forcing conventions just somewhat devalues games as artistic medium. But this goes both ways: I don't want to see hypersexualised artstyles abandoned because some take offense and I don't want realistic portrayals of women as well as men abandoned because the publisher says big boobs and meatheads sell more copies.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

What do you mean the way women look is more important?

So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.


As for the sorceress...I have huge tits irl if I thought that was the problem there would be a lot of self hate going on every time I looked in the mirror.

The problem with the sorceress for me is that she's depicted not as a powerful magic user but as a halloween themed pole dancer. If she had the same proportions but was depicted melting some faces instead of with her stave rammed up her buttcrack then hell I would be totally okay with it. As it is I look between her an the picture of the male sorcerer and I just think...fuck off.

Women can look sexy and attractive without being sexualised to the point they look stupid. Does that make sense?

 

[Hazy992]

A woman's physical appearance is more important than that of a man's? So women should be held to a higher standard than men simply by virtue of being women? You're actually saying that?

Do you really not see the problem with what you're saying?

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I kinda agree kinda disagree. I don't think the way women look is more important per se, so much as the sexualized parts of a woman are more pronounced. By looking a woman can be wearing a turtleneck and you'll still have some notion of what size her tits are if its even remotely snug. same thing goes for the hips and ass. You know the part of the woman I rarely see sexualized in non-pornographic media? The vagina. It's kind of hard to draw a parallel when you talk about sexualizing men, because the only body part they have a direct parallel for is the sex organ that's never sexualized.

Also, as I've said many times before, some women LIKE to dress sexy. If ALL of your female characters are sluts, yeah that's immature but throwing one into the mix here and there does NOT make a game sexist. Also is there not a place for pandery schlock in this world? what's with this outcry over stupid fun with digital boobs? If you don't like them, don't buy the game. If you weren't going to buy the game anyways, why try to ruin everyone else's fun over something that didn't even "ruin" anything for you?

 

[m19]

So this is a thing nowadays? We've officially arrived to where this is a thing? Seriously?

Yes, it was made for men. Yes, it's a silly exaggerated male sex fantasy. Yes, we need more things that are made for women or for both simultaneously. No, there is nothing wrong with it on its own. Some feminists are becoming more and more obnoxious.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I think it is hilarious you think `nothing should change bro it's not important` is an UNPOPULAR opinion on this site.
Where have you been hanging out, the moon?

Either way, these conversations aren't gonna go away.
Hopefully we'll get some more diverse characters out of them, but if you think the T&A ones are gonna get all locked up and taken away you are just being wilfully ignorant.

(THIS is how you get flamed, son!)
I'm in one of these moods today

Plus I love that gif

I was going to type a response but this.

Also, it bothers me when people say "if over-sexualised women bother you, just buy another game". What other fucking game? They're in every game.

 

[Madman123456]

If future archeologists dig out remnants from our culture and those remnants happen to be some figurines of anime characters they'd think that the Ladies of our time had back muscles and tendons made of something that makes steel look like wet toilet paper in comparison.

About this "Controversy"; someone is a bit overreacting. One could have said: "Actually, i am gay!, Thank you for the Pictures, could i have some more of them?". Or maybe: "My sexual Preferences aside; It would take me out of the Experience of the game a bit if i'm constantly asking myself how these ladies are able to walk upright.".

The Artist may be seen as oblivious and maybe insensitive; But now he'll probably lose his Job over this. Struck a mighty blow for the gay community here.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Why are naked burly men, male powerfantasies? It's not mine, so "it's like.. your opinion, dude"

Though the topic and the drawings are both pretty ridicolous, it still bugs me that someone else just decides that asskickin' ridicolously proportioned males are my powerfantasy and asskickin' ridicolously proportioned females are nobodys powerfantasy. And state that as a matter of fact.

I could turn the thing around and say, as a only 1.65m (5'4") those super burly dudes make me uncomfortable and insecure, so they're clearly just for the ladies and it's incredibly sexist, because they're definitly not designed to appeal to me.

Stupid designs are stupid. I don't care if they're black, white, male, female or purple carnivourus penguins.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

What do you mean the way women look is more important?

So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.

Uhh, what he said is:

"The physical appearance of women has always been (and likely will be due to the stagnation of medical and biological sciences recently) more important than that of men"



"More important than mens" does NOT equal "the most important aspect of womanhood" or anything remotely close to that. It JUST talks about comparative importance of looks and contrasts men and women in that specific aspect of their beings. Nothing more is being asserted here.