Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

[kommando367]

1. Spellcasters don't have to dress protectively, they have defensive wards and shit for that purpose.

2. Just because you don't the way something looks doesn't mean it has to change.

I don't like seeing Eric Northman's butt on nearly every episode of True Blood but do you see me saying that they should make him wear pants at all times? No, because I don't give a fuck.

This game is receiving massive amounts of undeserved hatred just because some of y'all don't like the appearance of 2 of it's characters. Some of y'all should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[JSRT]

Apparently those who did dislike it are turning it into an issue of sexism, which is rather disingenuous.

I would say "blown out of proportion," but not "disingenuous."

The problem is that in a landscape of such women, this seems like more of the same. At this point, any claims of stylisation and satire are difficult to cull from the rest of the crowd. It's sort of a variant of Poe's Law. This may be worsened by the presence of the other characters and the ignorance of them, but their presence doesn't eliminate the concept of sexism.

The puerile response from the artist really didn't help, either.

But more to the point, I would argue that this is sexist, but also fairly trivial, rather than that the sexism argument isn't honest. I think this is more a "straw that broke the camel's back" sort of thing, where people are getting tired of design choices and justifications, rather than a dishonest attempt by anyone.

It doesn't matter if it's new, it's still happening and it's still bad.

You're pretending there's a progression and it's silly. there's no real absence of this sort of material, either. To pretend otherwise is just ridiculous. If you really need stripper characters in videos games, you can turn to almost the whole market.

80's censorship of games, or 80's censorship in general?

Mostly in general, though with the beginning of the NES era we started having censorship in games. I know there was shit like custer's revenge and that the PC market's always had some level of sex games (even back when they were just low rest pixel bewbs), but we started seeing stuff edited even back then. And the strictures on a lot of foreign media were pretty severe. Have you seen how chopped up a lot of the anime was? I'd take gaming "censorship" over that in a heartbeat.

There was nothing remotely " puerile" about Kamitami's response, it was a perfectly appropriate way to respond to someone who throws a direct insult at you like a little kid. In my opinion he was way to nice too that Kotaku douche. He should have put him in his place the way David Jaffe and Hideki Kamiya did when they attempted to pull this kind of crap with them. Frankly Dragon's Crown is a niche title not by one of the big publishers and an easy target for Kotaku's tabloid sensationalist crap. Also i look forward to seeing all the Sorceress cosplayers at conventions after all the diatribes about this game being sexist( again despite the fact of the women in the game having various body types.)

IMO. Pendulous breasts NEVER make a game sexist, a female character who is victimized, oppressed by men, or taken advantage of, or abused is sexist. If a woman is strong and powerful and has pendulous breasts well that?s just awesome AND most women in my family? You sayin the females in my family sexist just cuz we jiggle? Get over it!

http://erinfitzvoiceartist.tumblr.com/post/49467930693/imo-pendulous-breasts-never-make-a-game-sexist-a

The context of the game as a whole justifies the Sorceress. She?s not singled out among a bunch of regularly proportioned, photo realistic characters. Each character has been designed so you can instantly know the gameplay role they fill. The warrior is huge and imposing, he can clearly take hits and is meant to lead the charge. The Amazon has rippling muscles and a strong foundation, but not much for armor or defense- she is the power, the base who carries the group. The sorceress has no muscle, no armor, and is rounded and soft- this is a person who would not take a sword hit well. In a game about teamwork where each player must fill a role, it?s important to know how to play your character. Each character is exaggerated to instantly show that the knight is defense, the Amazon deals damage, and the mage is support.

If you have only seen the images of these characters, you cannot claim that one is sexist. As I mentioned at the start, when seen from afar, before there is any interaction, everyone is objectified.

http://7nights.tumblr.com/post/49375174755/feminism-in-video-games

 

[Olas]

I'll just leave this here. No doubt a certain Gearbox "artist" and a certain "writer" will want all of the artist's works burned because they're so exaggerated and sexualized, along with all the libraries, skirts that go too far above the ankle, and the Bill of Rights, because they obviously know better:

Spoiler

You're right, that's a totally unrealistic depiction of the female body. No real women could actually grow wings like that, and even if she could there's no way wings that size could hold her up. We really need to stop creating such unrealistic body standards for women.

Oh and it's good that you mentioned book-burning and repealing the Bill of Rights, because it's obvious that that's where all this is going. There's almost no difference between opposing a videogame's art style and being in favor of an orwellian dystopia.

 

[God's Clown]

I am of the mind that we should just let the developers and artists make the game and art they want. It is their game, they have the right to make the characters how ever they want to make them. If you don't like the style, don't buy the game. Not every game needs to be realistic. Sure, there is a general lack of games where proportions are normal, but just because that is so doesn't mean artists shouldn't be able to make anything other than normal proportions.

People want video games to be taken serious as art, but then they go around telling artists what they can and cannot do because sexism, feminism, racism and any other -ism. Artists work best when they are allowed to create freely. The lack of normal proportions should be discussed, sure, but if they want to create hyper-sexualized characters, that is them. Don't buy the game if you don't like it.

I also don't see why people always focus on just females being hyper-sexualized. The industry hyper-sexualizes men as well in a lot of games. Most men don't have super chiseled abs and biceps made of pure muscle. Just like most women don't have G sized breasts and asses that curve like a protractor. Both sides should be discussed, but at the end of the day, if the artist wants to do hyper-sexualized and the developer is okay with it, then they should be allowed to without ridicule.

So basically, if they want to do the art this way, let them go for it, don't like the way it looks, don't buy the game. Your money will speak louder than your words will any day of the week when it comes to video games. It's a business to make money, if they aren't making money, they aren't doing business.

 

[The GEL]

You know what is driving me COMPLETELY insane about this whole debate? How quickly it has been blown out of proportion and turned into personal attacks and judgement of character against George Kamitani...WITHOUT ANYONE EVER MENTIONING HIS OTHER WORK!

Or when they DO it's "Oh he has drawn big boobs in the past so this is nothing new! It's just his STYLE! Why are you picking on him NOW?" NO YOU IDIOTS, IT IS NOT!

See, here's the thing: Every single game Vanillaware has made up to this point has starred a not-particularly-sexualized female character. STARRED.

Princess Crown. Gradriel was the main. That was who you played as. The guys were bonus unlockable chapters after you beat the game.

Odin Sphere. You start with Gwendolyn, who is arguably the lead. There are also only two male characters to three females.

GrimGrimoire. You play as Lillet Blan. No choice, no exception. Lillet is the lead. Period.

Muramasa is probably the closest to having a male lead as you get a choice and Momohime spends a lot of time posessed. I will also admit that her pose there is kinda sexual.

Grand Knights History I have not played. I think it has custom characters but does feature that girl front and center on the cover.

There was also some game involving a bear girl with a different artist.

So...umm...yeah. EVERYTHING Vanillaware has done involves female leads. That's not to say there isn't sexualization in these games. There ARE busty characters, there IS boob physics.

I'm not trying to say Kamitani is a saint or anything. All I'm saying is that it is harsh to judge him as a person based on a single character design and one awkwardly written joke on Facebook.

...and "this is his style"?! Umm...actually it ISN'T! THAT is what makes it so exciting to me! All his other games feature characters with large heads and small bodies and very few muscular characters. This game is RADICALLY different in its approach!

And MAYBE it wouldn't seem like people were grasping at straws with their "It's a Parody!" claims if they listed some OTHER examples! Like, you know, the gross ass-jiggle on the Amazon where she only has this little flap of fat to jiggle with as most of her butt is made of muscle (or possibly rock)?

Ew. That's just weird.

Or how the Dwarf's legs EXPLODE into balls of veins with EVERY STEP?

Oh EGAD his STANDING animation! I didn't see this before! His veins PULSE!

So...yeah I think the Sorceress is SUPPOSED to be off-putting. Like some kind of "Can't tell if this is sexy or too much" kind of thing?

But lets not try and use that as an excuse to say that the Sorceress isn't sexualized or offensive. Okay sure, she is. But yeah a lot of people are worried because they're sick of games getting censored for their US release and will be absolutely LIVID if this happens to Dragon's Crown. It probably won't (can you IMAGINE the amount of work it would take?!) but if it does we're all gonna be pissed about having to pay $100+ to import the game. I mean it's weird, I don't even CARE about the Sorceress (I'm rolling Amazon) and would be just as excited for this game even if she didn't exist, but if she gets censored I would import the Japanese one. I have yet to figure out exactly why that is.

I just think people are not articulating well enough WHY we're willing to defend this artist and game so vehemently.

It keeps looking like it's JUST about the boobs when there is a LOT more to it than that. Dragon's Crown is the kind of game the universe generally DOES NOT ALLOW TO EXIST. A modern brawler? High-res 2D? A Japanese game? Vanillaware? All reasons beyond the huge-diculous breasts. Most of its most staunch defenders have been waiting for this game for 3 years now and even the slightest hint that it might get altered/changed/censored/delayed/denied a US release has us all on edge. Similar incidents in the past are fresh on our minds. I know people are saying that is NOT what they want, but it's the direction this conversation keeps going in.

 

[AndyNPC]

Yes, we get it. You hate the artstyle. What you seem to want us to do is convince you to like it, and that is never going to happen. This is your problem, not the problem of the artist or his fans.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

It was the 'journalists' interpretation that being called gay was a negative thing.

Not really, that was the entire point of the original quote and accompanying picture. What the artist was saying was basically "Jason Schreier doesn't like the sorceress or the amazon. What is he, gay?" Gayness is treated as a bad thing, or if not actually bad thing then at least the punchline to a joke. And it is homophobic to treat gayness as a punchline.

No it isn't. It's a personal question whether or not it's in bad taste (it is, in this case IMO) but calling it homophobic is just hyperbole.

 

[Nightv]

This is what you are doing with your penny arcade link:
Hey guys, I found this article on google news: news.google.com
Link to the comic itself, not the homepage.
EDIT: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/04/24

Hahahah, oh christ that comic is so spot-on! I believe that one deserves to be posted in the open...well done Penny Arcade for pretty much summing up this whole thing

O god I would love to just play at that character just to see the run animation.

 

[The GEL]

Yes, we get it. You hate the artstyle. What you seem to want us to do is convince you to like it, and that is never going to happen. This is your problem, not the problem of the artist or his fans.

Was...that aimed at me? Because that's the exact OPPOSITE of what I said! XD

Seriously, I love the style and am a fan. I can SEE how the style in Dragon's Crown could be off-putting but wanted to point out that Kamitani's work goes FAR beyond Sorceress boobs. (In essence trying to get people to love the art even if they don't like Dragon's Crown's particular STYLE)

 

[Zero=Interrupt]

I'll just leave this here. No doubt a certain Gearbox "artist" and a certain "writer" will want all of the artist's works burned because they're so exaggerated and sexualized, along with all the libraries, skirts that go too far above the ankle, and the Bill of Rights, because they obviously know better:

Spoiler

The woman there has proportions that a human woman could realistically hope to attain and would not suffer crippling back problems, so it's not really comparable.

Also, it was drawn by someone who knows how anatomy works.

You slam Kamitani without ever having seen his body of work. He's really an excellent artist, and DOES know his anatomy. If you'd ever seen the sketchbooks of Da Vinci or other artists throughout history, distortion of features is nothing new for fine artists. And if you think Reubens' women had realistic proportions, your sense of both his body of work and correct female proportions is waaaaaay off.

Hit a museum. Look at some art books. What Kamitani is doing is nothing new, and his technique and mastery of composition and color is quite excellent.

 

[Grahav]

I'll just leave this here. No doubt a certain Gearbox "artist" and a certain "writer" will want all of the artist's works burned because they're so exaggerated and sexualized, along with all the libraries, skirts that go too far above the ankle, and the Bill of Rights, because they obviously know better:



The woman there has proportions that a human woman could realistically hope to attain and would not suffer crippling back problems, so it's not really comparable.

Also, it was drawn by someone who knows how anatomy works.

Well, to be fair it was hard to get chubby and have porcelain skin in those times were starvation and working under the sun were the norm. The women who got to be like that were usually rich

Spoiler

You know what is driving me COMPLETELY insane about this whole debate? How quickly it has been blown out of proportion and turned into personal attacks and judgement of character against George Kamitani...WITHOUT ANYONE EVER MENTIONING HIS OTHER WORK!

Or when they DO it's "Oh he has drawn big boobs in the past so this is nothing new! It's just his STYLE! Why are you picking on him NOW?" NO YOU IDIOTS, IT IS NOT!

See, here's the thing: Every single game Vanillaware has made up to this point has starred a not-particularly-sexualized female character. STARRED.

Princess Crown. Gradriel was the main. That was who you played as. The guys were bonus unlockable chapters after you beat the game.

Odin Sphere. You start with Gwendolyn, who is arguably the lead. There are also only two male characters to three females.

GrimGrimoire. You play as Lillet Blan. No choice, no exception. Lillet is the lead. Period.

Muramasa is probably the closest to having a male lead as you get a choice and Momohime spends a lot of time posessed. I will also admit that her pose there is kinda sexual.

Grand Knights History I have not played. I think it has custom characters but does feature that girl front and center on the cover.

There was also some game involving a bear girl with a different artist.

So...umm...yeah. EVERYTHING Vanillaware has done involves female leads. That's not to say there isn't sexualization in these games. There ARE busty characters, there IS boob physics.

I'm not trying to say Kamitani is a saint or anything. All I'm saying is that it is harsh to judge him as a person based on a single character design and one awkwardly written joke on Facebook.

...and "this is his style"?! Umm...actually it ISN'T! THAT is what makes it so exciting to me! All his other games feature characters with large heads and small bodies and very few muscular characters. This game is RADICALLY different in its approach!

And MAYBE it wouldn't seem like people were grasping at straws with their "It's a Parody!" claims if they listed some OTHER examples! Like, you know, the gross ass-jiggle on the Amazon where she only has this little flap of fat to jiggle with as most of her butt is made of muscle (or possibly rock)?

Ew. That's just weird.

Or how the Dwarf's legs EXPLODE into balls of veins with EVERY STEP?

Oh EGAD his STANDING animation! I didn't see this before! His veins PULSE!

So...yeah I think the Sorceress is SUPPOSED to be off-putting. Like some kind of "Can't tell if this is sexy or too much" kind of thing?

But lets not try and use that as an excuse to say that the Sorceress isn't sexualized or offensive. Okay sure, she is. But yeah a lot of people are worried because they're sick of games getting censored for their US release and will be absolutely LIVID if this happens to Dragon's Crown. It probably won't (can you IMAGINE the amount of work it would take?!) but if it does we're all gonna be pissed about having to pay $100+ to import the game. I mean it's weird, I don't even CARE about the Sorceress (I'm rolling Amazon) and would be just as excited for this game even if she didn't exist, but if she gets censored I would import the Japanese one. I have yet to figure out exactly why that is.

I just think people are not articulating well enough WHY we're willing to defend this artist and game so vehemently.

It keeps looking like it's JUST about the boobs when there is a LOT more to it than that. Dragon's Crown is the kind of game the universe generally DOES NOT ALLOW TO EXIST. A modern brawler? High-res 2D? A Japanese game? Vanillaware? All reasons beyond the huge-diculous breasts. Most of its most staunch defenders have been waiting for this game for 3 years now and even the slightest hint that it might get altered/changed/censored/delayed/denied a US release has us all on edge. Similar incidents in the past are fresh on our minds. I know people are saying that is NOT what they want, but it's the direction this conversation keeps going in.

Oh God, I agree and now I have to worry about the censorship.

Well, the two exagerated girls are really exagerated for me. And I am a fan of fanservice having played Skullgirls, Dead or Alive and stuff. I like pantyshots but I never got sold on jello boobs. Well, tastes.

What brings me to this. One thing that irritates me a lot is how some people come attacking the artist calling him a 14 year old and then get all defensive when he calls the person gay. Apparently it is not right to demean the gay community but teen men are an ok target, because THEIR sexuality is demeaning, perverse and wrong.


Look sexual tastes are a really diverse thing in this world. There is a lot of incompatibility, but as long as things are kept sane, safe and consensual everything will be fine.

That being said it is not right to force the artist to draw what a certain group wants. Also it is not right to a group to not be represented.

So let's keep the male oriented games but add alternatives. Simple math.